Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones? Locked

Started Feb 20, 2014 | Discussions
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mistermejia Senior Member • Posts: 3,340
Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Is it Fuji itself ??  Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else?  I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now???  I don't get it.

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Sal Baker Veteran Member • Posts: 9,363
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Is it Fuji itself ??  Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else?  I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now???  I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

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nonicks Regular Member • Posts: 117
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Shoot Raw. Or tune down the noise reduction to -2 for Jpeg.

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taz98spin Contributing Member • Posts: 526
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Only Nikon experience I have is from my job, where I used a D3S. I don't recall every hearing about plastic skin from my images.. but than again, it was for my job, and we had different PP folks too.

As for Fuji and their newer sensors, which include the X100S that I have.

I have not had any clients complain of waxy skin. But then again, I don't go pass 3200 iso and attempt to shoot in the best idea light setting.

So who's at fault? Maybe Fuji, or maybe the user?

Like I mentioned in the other thread, it looks like the focus was off, and the user tried to adjust the clarity too harshly.

-- hide signature --
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Ysarex
Ysarex Senior Member • Posts: 1,187
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

User error.

Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

You have an S5 Pro...the greatest camera EVER made for photographing skin.   Anything else is a huge step down.

mistermejia OP Senior Member • Posts: 3,340
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then.  That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon.  I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1.  Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones.  But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

 mistermejia's gear list:mistermejia's gear list
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gskolenda
gskolenda Senior Member • Posts: 1,053
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Graham Hill wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

You have an S5 Pro...the greatest camera EVER made for photographing skin. Anything else is a huge step down.

BullS___ !! I'd bet you could not tell the difference from one camera to the next in regards to skin tone. Waxy Skin Tone! Come-On! maybe it's your waxy monitor! Fuji's are the best aps-c cameras currently!

Has to be user error!

mistermejia OP Senior Member • Posts: 3,340
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

taz98spin wrote:

Only Nikon experience I have is from my job, where I used a D3S. I don't recall every hearing about plastic skin from my images.. but than again, it was for my job, and we had different PP folks too.

As for Fuji and their newer sensors, which include the X100S that I have.

I have not had any clients complain of waxy skin. But then again, I don't go pass 3200 iso and attempt to shoot in the best idea light setting.

So who's at fault? Maybe Fuji, or maybe the user?

Like I mentioned in the other thread, it looks like the focus was off, and the user tried to adjust the clarity too harshly.

-- hide signature --

There is nothing wrong with a D3.  Is the newer cameras from the D7000 and on.

 mistermejia's gear list:mistermejia's gear list
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AustinB Regular Member • Posts: 380
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

I don't think it is the sensor because I saw this in my X-A1 too at ISO 6400. It's just noise reduction gone too far.

Nor is it user error in the strict sense. Sure, you can shoot with a prime, open up your aperture and select a lower shutter speed to try to avoid high ISO. With a zoom/kit lens this is obviously more difficult.

mistermejia OP Senior Member • Posts: 3,340
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Graham Hill wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

You have an S5 Pro...the greatest camera EVER made for photographing skin. Anything else is a huge step down.

Yeah, that's why i am not selling it and just decided to take advantage of buying the XE1 to complement it with the S5  

 mistermejia's gear list:mistermejia's gear list
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TThorne
TThorne Senior Member • Posts: 3,013
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

It is in the processing. I believe that, in an attempt to win the more tangible battle, showing less noise at higher ISO, aggressive NR and processing is causing this issue. So many consumers these days equate lack of noise to low light IQ, because it is tangible and can be seen easily, that they forget the other, and some times more important aspects of low light IQ, like texture and detail retention. Fuji is smart here. They know who they are catering to and so they pull their own special wool sheet.

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else?

They buy them from Sony.

I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I doubt they are ignoring it, but there is only so much they can do before they introduce noise back not the photo, which is fine in my opinion, but then it will effect all the people who only ever post DPR high ISO sample comparison shots to declare Fuji the noiseless low light king.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

For the life of me I can't understand people wanting a serious system camera and all the fixings just to shoot jpeg, but to each their own. Mix poor light, high ISO, and bad WB settings, then demand a SOOC jpeg, and that is what you may get.

-- hide signature --

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. - Sir Winston Churchill

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Mike in Kansas
Mike in Kansas Contributing Member • Posts: 773
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then. That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon. I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1. Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones. But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

Or shoot RAW.

I think the term "correct" is strong, as it implies that there is something "wrong".  Maybe the Fuji engineers and the users that they surveyed feel that the high amount of skin smoothing in the JPEGs at high ISO is preferable to a sharper albeit noisier image.  I don't think there is an "error" in their JPEG engine; it was a conscious choice when moving from the X-E1 to the X-E2 to change the JPEG processing in higher ISOs to one that is more heavy-handed.

What would be NICE would be to give the user more control over the amount of skin smoothing / noise reduction that is APPLIED at these higher ISOs, so the in-camera JPEGs look more like the X-E1.

I think you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none...

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AustinB Regular Member • Posts: 380
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

TThorne wrote:

For the life of me I can't understand people wanting a serious system camera and all the fixings just to shoot jpeg, but to each their own.

Many shoot RAW/JPEG and often use the excellent JPEG for time saving purposes.

mistermejia OP Senior Member • Posts: 3,340
TThorne

TThorne wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

It is in the processing. I believe that, in an attempt to win the more tangible battle, showing less noise at higher ISO, aggressive NR and processing is causing this issue. So many consumers these days equate lack of noise to low light IQ, because it is tangible and can be seen easily, that they forget the other, and some times more important aspects of low light IQ, like texture and detail retention. Fuji is smart here. They know who they are catering to and so they pull their own special wool sheet.

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else?

They buy them from Sony.

I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I doubt they are ignoring it, but there is only so much they can do before they introduce noise back not the photo, which is fine in my opinion, but then it will effect all the people who only ever post DPR high ISO sample comparison shots to declare Fuji the noiseless low light king.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

For the life of me I can't understand people wanting a serious system camera and all the fixings just to shoot jpeg, but to each their own. Mix poor light, high ISO, and bad WB settings, then demand a SOOC jpeg, and that is what you may get.

-- hide signature --

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. - Sir Winston Churchill

I probably started "hearing" about this Xtrans cameras around two years ago. I was not into them at all. All i would "hear" is this "awesome jpeg performance". So i said to myself yeah why not! If i don't HAVE to shoot RAW all the time that would be great! Fantastic jpegs out of the camera, yeah why not i said!

So i went and bought my very little X10 and took it to my vacation trip to Guatemala last november, and shot jpeg all the way. That changed my life and thoughts about this compact size bodies

Under certain scenarios or whenever i feel like it, I shoot RAW, but I didn't move to Fuji to shoot raw ALL THE TIME

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mistermejia OP Senior Member • Posts: 3,340
Mike

Mike in Kansas wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then. That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon. I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1. Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones. But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

Or shoot RAW.

I think the term "correct" is strong, as it implies that there is something "wrong". Maybe the Fuji engineers and the users that they surveyed feel that the high amount of skin smoothing in the JPEGs at high ISO is preferable to a sharper albeit noisier image. I don't think there is an "error" in their JPEG engine; it was a conscious choice when moving from the X-E1 to the X-E2 to change the JPEG processing in higher ISOs to one that is more heavy-handed.

Why would Fuji "ask" a user how to make the IQ?  Isn't Fuji an expert at this?

What would be NICE would be to give the user more control over the amount of skin smoothing / noise reduction that is APPLIED at these higher ISOs, so the in-camera JPEGs look more like the X-E1.

I think you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none...

Yes, that would be nice.

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Lyle From Canada Senior Member • Posts: 1,509
NR

its simply a matter of overly aggressive noise reduction, even at -2. The raws dont exhibit it, but it can be replicated easily with the lightroom noise reduction slider. A simple firmware fix offering NR OFF makes all this discussion disappear instantly.

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taz98spin Contributing Member • Posts: 526
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

taz98spin wrote:

Only Nikon experience I have is from my job, where I used a D3S. I don't recall every hearing about plastic skin from my images.. but than again, it was for my job, and we had different PP folks too.

As for Fuji and their newer sensors, which include the X100S that I have.

I have not had any clients complain of waxy skin. But then again, I don't go pass 3200 iso and attempt to shoot in the best idea light setting.

So who's at fault? Maybe Fuji, or maybe the user?

Like I mentioned in the other thread, it looks like the focus was off, and the user tried to adjust the clarity too harshly.

-- hide signature --

There is nothing wrong with a D3. Is the newer cameras from the D7000 and on.

Good thing I didn't choose Nikon for my personal use than

-- hide signature --
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taz98spin Contributing Member • Posts: 526
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

TThorne wrote:

For the life of me I can't understand people wanting a serious system camera and all the fixings just to shoot jpeg, but to each their own. Mix poor light, high ISO, and bad WB settings, then demand a SOOC jpeg, and that is what you may get.

-- hide signature --

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. - Sir Winston Churchill

Many professionals that I know, shoot jpeg. It saves time + smaller file size for storage.

I shoot portraits and events and on top of that, I have a full time job. I have no time, nor desire to tinker with the RAW files.

-- hide signature --
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Len_Gee
Len_Gee Veteran Member • Posts: 8,916
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then. That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon. I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1. Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones. But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

Agree.

Go back to Nikon.

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