I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
jidery
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I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
9 months ago

Yes this topic has been butchered to death on these forums, but I still feel like it’s worth writing about as it’s such a controversial topic with many differing opinions. Long story short, people are at this point begging Sony to replace the A77, but I can’t understand why.

Let me start by saying that my understanding of a flagship camera is it is supposed to last a long time. So let’s look at a little history from Sony’s competitors.

The total time between the announcement of the D7000 and the D7100 was close to 3 years.

The Canon 7D is well into its 4 year without a replacement.

The A77 took 3.5 years to replace the A700.

Here the A77 stands, at almost exactly 2.5 years since announcement, and people are begging for a new camera to come out. One would expect that a more realistic timeframe for a replacement would be a year from now, pegging its replacement at 3.5 years, just in line with Sony’s short history with their APSC flagships.

But it must be asked, why would Sony be in a rush to replace this camera? Looking at the A77 compared to its current competition, it is still

-The fastest APSC camera on the market

-Easily the highest dynamic range of all APSC cameras

-The highest resolution APSC camera on the market

-A class leading auto focus module

-The best video compared to other APSC flagships

As of now, there isn’t a whole lot of reason for Sony to upgrade, as their main competition still hasn’t caught up.

Maybe its just me, but I really don’t think the A77 needs to be replaced this year. Next year makes much more sense.

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sybersitizen
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year...
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

I don't either. If a replacement arrives this year, next year, or whatever, I'm sure I won't be buying it anyway until it becomes two years old as well... or maybe not at all. But some people just want and expect new and better things constantly.

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Steve West
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

this update is probably more about people moving into a sony aps system than those of us that already have the A77. When the SLT mirror goes away, I think more people already owning an A77 will look hard at an upgrade.  I'm sure that tracking improvements will be welcome by some too--and perhaps jpg engine performance to name a few.

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Dennis
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it.  If not, then wait.  2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

- Dennis

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123Mike
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to Dennis, 9 months ago

Dennis wrote:

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it. If not, then wait. 2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

The A6000 shows that on-sensor-pdaf *IS* prime time. It apparently runs circles around the A77 for auto focus performance. In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

The low light performance of the A77 isn't very good. DXO rates it pretty low. Video performance is dismal. Fact it, it's getting antiquated.

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jidery
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to 123Mike, 9 months ago

123Mike wrote:

Dennis wrote:

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it. If not, then wait. 2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

The A6000 shows that on-sensor-pdaf *IS* prime time. It apparently runs circles around the A77 for auto focus performance. In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

The low light performance of the A77 isn't very good. DXO rates it pretty low. Video performance is dismal. Fact it, it's getting antiquated.

Yet its ahead of the 7D and not far behind the D7100 in terms of ISO. It's really not that bad compared to its competition.

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Ron Poelman
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+1 Not to mention the current pricing. (NT)
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago
No text.
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Ralf B
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

The current pricing may indicate the opposite.

Another reason for the perceived "urgency" of the a77 replacement is the uncertainty on Sony's plans for A Mount (oh sh..., I contribute to doom and gloom....). So the community is waiting for reassuring news. A roadmap announcement might already do. But that is very unlikely, Sony has been tighjt-lipped on A Mount road maps ever since the a77 failed to boost their market share.

Sony was not shy to announce the roadmap for FE lenses. Well maybe they were shy but were forced to release that roadmap, as there were no FE lenses when the A7 and A7r were announced. So Sony's usual silence on their plans would have been a DOA for the FE release. Also, they discovered and then claimed a niche sans competition with FE - so that helped to get them into communicating their future plans for FE.

In A Mount, they are still the distant third behind CaNikon. So, where is the incentive to break their corporate policy of being "shy" here? My guess: They may be scared of releasing info to which CaNikon can react to, see PDAF on sensor in the Canon 70D , opposite to FE which CaNikon obviously can't counter up to now. So Sony's lips remain tight. No A mount road map. No news. In consequence, the community is worried.

Back to pricing: I take the a77 current price level as too low for a continued sale without replacement. The a6000 on sensor PDAF - if its claimed AF performance shows in real reviews - is a positive indication of things to come. OTOH, the a99 "discounts" really bring the a99 body only price point to where it should officially be by now - but still isn't. No replacement in sight here - before Photokina. Ooooops, I speculated......

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Ralf
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dlkeller
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to 123Mike, 9 months ago

Does it really?  Yes, I read the press release, but also know they are often overly inflated and optimistic.  I would wait until the camera is actually out and has been thoroughly tested before being so certain of these claims.

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Dave

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K E Hoffman
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

yes it is a good camera...

But

a) it is being priced for end of life at around 2.5 years.

b) A700 to A77 gap had something to do with 2008/2009 Crash.

c) frankly they are showing some innovation so there are things in the A99 and even now the A6000 that need to be in $1300 range camera for Sony.

Canon can sit all it wants on its big fat brand..  Sony has to try harder.. that is one advantage of owning #3

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nandbytes
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

jidery wrote:

123Mike wrote:

Dennis wrote:

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it. If not, then wait. 2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

The A6000 shows that on-sensor-pdaf *IS* prime time. It apparently runs circles around the A77 for auto focus performance. In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

The low light performance of the A77 isn't very good. DXO rates it pretty low. Video performance is dismal. Fact it, it's getting antiquated.

Yet its ahead of the 7D and not far behind the D7100 in terms of ISO. It's really not that bad compared to its competition.

This and OP thread is so far the funniest of its kind lol.

"Rest of the cameras suck so I don't mind have one that sucks less".

I dont want a less sucky camera, I want the best possible and I hope sony is the one to have it.

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Jabez02
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to K E Hoffman, 9 months ago

And as a general marketing rule, it's better to replace a product that is in demand with an improved product before the demands for a replacement grow too load. It gives the impression of being on top of your game.

As Sony seems to cop more than its fair share of just general bloody minded whinging, they need to be out there presenting themselves. Of course the self same complainers will then turn around saying too many product changes too quickly, I'm confused !

I think at the moment cameras like the A77 need to replaced on a two year cycle,this would all ready be twice the time period of many other brands. This means that unlike Canikon each model will be somewhat different from the last camera.

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digitalshooter
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Camera models should be replaced/updated to deal with deficiencies
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

of that current model that cannot be dealt with via firmware and changes in technology that make the camera better.

Not to compete with the other guy.

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RichV
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I think it's about the business ...
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

Canon most certainly WILL release an updated 7D this year - and it's a pretty easy guess that it will be a significant improvement; Nikon HAS released the 7100. Sony has gotten a boost to Alpha only via the NEX part of the line; the A-mount needs to bring positive attention to itself and a "flagship" is one of the main ways to do so.  I hardly ever use my A77 because I don't do a lot of fair-weather shooting; my A99 serves that purpose better, but often my Canon 1D.4 does even better (I'm not talking about DR, but about the performance: never any lag, quicker AF locks, better buffer system, almost laughs at any type of weather).  I think Sony's attention to NEX was the right move, but they've got to do for A-mount what they did for NEX (I wasn't one of the ones in love with the A7/R concept; it was clear that these would be niche-use bodies), otherwise A-mount will continue to be a drain financially. They've got to come out strong, and not just via marketing hype; they have to get tangibly better.

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Chris Malcolm
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to nandbytes, 9 months ago

nandbytes wrote:

jidery wrote:

123Mike wrote:

Dennis wrote:

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it. If not, then wait. 2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

The A6000 shows that on-sensor-pdaf *IS* prime time. It apparently runs circles around the A77 for auto focus performance. In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

The low light performance of the A77 isn't very good. DXO rates it pretty low. Video performance is dismal. Fact it, it's getting antiquated.

Yet its ahead of the 7D and not far behind the D7100 in terms of ISO. It's really not that bad compared to its competition.

This and OP thread is so far the funniest of its kind lol.

"Rest of the cameras suck so I don't mind have one that sucks less".

I dont want a less sucky camera, I want the best possible and I hope sony is the one to have it.

This is the problem. The best camera rarely holds its title for longer than a year. Models and makers keep leapfrogging one another in the various aspects of bestness. But even if I could afford to buy the best camera every time a new best arrived it would be pointless. It takes me at least two years to learn how to get the best from a new camera.

It's not unusual for me to stumble across an unexpected feature or method which uses a combination of features which makes a certain kind of shot so much easier and better well after a year of ownership. It's not unusual for me to look back at an excellent photograph taken years ago with inferior technology and go back there with my latest gear to take a better one. And find that I can't do it. I've got better resolution, better micro contrast, highest dynamic range, etc., but the light is different in a subtle but rather important way.

I find cameras are like rough country boots. I have to use them for a long time before we become well fitted to each other. And once we've become good trusted familiar friends a new friend has to be outstandingly superior to be preferred to the old one. I recall the time I took some friends up a steep hill in ankle deep snow. I had good boots on and wasn't slipping. A friend kept slipping and falling, cursing his smoother soles. His feet were the same size as mine. So we swopped boots. He still kept slipping, but not as much. And I wasn't slipping at all, and still moving faster than him.

Sometimes skill and technique is a lot more important than which camera it is.

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Michel J
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

AGREED !

I'm rolling on the floor when I read SAR don't you?

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Cordialement,
Michel J
« Shoot RAW ...think JPEG »

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Dennis
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to dlkeller, 9 months ago

dlkeller wrote:

Does it really? Yes, I read the press release, but also know they are often overly inflated and optimistic. I would wait until the camera is actually out and has been thoroughly tested before being so certain of these claims.

Yes, I've read that repeatedly, too. The fastest AF claim is based on the 16-50 kit lens, and while there have been a couple impressive videos out, I'd want to know that it can track athletes, not moving across the frame, but being tracked by the photographer as they move closer/farther. Hockey players, ski jumpers, etc. Maybe it can, and maybe the technology really is ready to replace SLT (and then to sell lots of sensor to Nikon) but right now the early claims about the a6000 are just hopeful; not convincing just yet. In the A6000, people are comparing it to the NEX-6 and other CSCs. In an Alpha body, people will be comparing it to competing DSLRs.

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tbcass
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to jidery, 9 months ago

jidery wrote:

Yes this topic has been butchered to death on these forums, but I still feel like it’s worth writing about as it’s such a controversial topic with many differing opinions. Long story short, people are at this point begging Sony to replace the A77, but I can’t understand why.

Maybe its just me, but I really don’t think the A77 needs to be replaced this year. Next year makes much more sense.

I agree with you 100%. In fact I don't care if they ever replace it as it is all the camera I will ever need for the rest of my life but, in this day and age new tech is what drives sales and many people want the latest and greatest even if it's only marginally better. There's a rush that comes with buying something new but it only lasts a short time. People would actually get more return by buying new lenses and accessories.

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tbcass
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to 123Mike, 9 months ago

123Mike wrote:In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

I'll believe that only when I see it in reliable tests, not Sony's exaggerated claims. As is the A77 is extremely fast and keeps up with anything I try on it.

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Tom
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Michel J
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Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
In reply to Ralf B, 9 months ago

Ralf B wrote:

The current pricing may indicate the opposite.

Another reason for the perceived "urgency" of the a77 replacement is the uncertainty on Sony's plans for A Mount (oh sh..., I contribute to doom and gloom....). So the community is waiting for reassuring news.

If so, there should be not a cosmetic lifting only...

But a new one with undergoing considerable changes through the video/audio/tv and network interfaces with disruptive technology advantages inside (open source control and access and so on), as well as an important technological breakthrough in performances, completed by a HUGE buffer and two memory slots to support 240 MB/s SD card, to replace the A77 to my side.

A roadmap announcement might already do.

No offense but this is believing in fairy tales. Sony clearly target the red camp (if not the yellow at the same time?), so there is no reason to say to everybody: "Hello girls*, look inside my nice roadmap..."

* Means R&D

But that is very unlikely, Sony has been tighjt-lipped on A Mount road maps ever since the a77 failed to boost their market share.

Sony was not shy to announce the roadmap for FE lenses. Well maybe they were shy but were forced to release that roadmap, as there were no FE lenses when the A7 and A7r were announced. So Sony's usual silence on their plans would have been a DOA for the FE release. Also, they discovered and then claimed a niche sans competition with FE - so that helped to get them into communicating their future plans for FE.

In A Mount, they are still the distant third behind CaNikon. So, where is the incentive to break their corporate policy of being "shy" here? My guess: They may be scared of releasing info to which CaNikon can react to, see PDAF on sensor in the Canon 70D , opposite to FE which CaNikon obviously can't counter up to now. So Sony's lips remain tight. No A mount road map. No news. In consequence, the community is worried.

Back to pricing: I take the a77 current price level as too low for a continued sale without replacement. The a6000 on sensor PDAF - if its claimed AF performance shows in real reviews - is a positive indication of things to come. OTOH, the a99 "discounts" really bring the a99 body only price point to where it should officially be by now - but still isn't. No replacement in sight here - before Photokina. Ooooops, I speculated......

Cheers,
Ralf
www.ralfralph.smugmug.com

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Cordialement,
Michel J
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