"But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA

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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to fishywisht, 6 months ago

fishywisht wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

the folks making comments have an understanding of digital cameras which is extremely primitive compared to this person and would do well to keep the mouth shut and the eyes open as they have alot to learn.

It's depressing how seriously you take yourself. You post a camera that looks like a student project for comments and then talk to us

You are you, not "us."

like we're cavemen when even the manufacturer has limited their claims for it. Might even be the first maker that I've seen admit it isn't for world+dog

What the camera "looks like" and what the limitations are in regards to ISO are two different things.

Yeah, it'll be a great camera when it takes over the world. Or it will fail miserably, as Sigma cameras tend to do.

A camera, or any product, does not have to have a big market share to be very successful and very profitable. Macs and iPhones are a perfect example of that.

My Sigma cameras haven't failed me yet. They give me ridiculously better image quality than I can get with a Bayer sensor camera. 15MP of Bayer looks like crap next to 15MP of Foveon.

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Re: High ISO is for dunderheads who simply don't know how to use a camera
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

ZOMG... AMAZING HIGH ISO...

Quit flagellating yourself and learn how to use a camera... ISO is the last thing you should adjust when in the 1% of your shots you can't adjust your exposure value or your F/stop to get the shot that you want.

There are too many people on DPreview who don't know how to use a camera... let the lens do the heavy lifting, not the body...

So many people run around in circles like my dog does when it greets someone at the door....

ZOMG I CAN SHOOT AT ISO64000 ZOMG MY CAMERA IS AMAZING!!!!

Plonkers...

Most photographers obsessed with high ISO are young and inexperienced.

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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to D Cox, 6 months ago

D Cox wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

the owner of Sigma has stated that the new "Quattro" camera coming out in approx summertime will be unbeatable in sunny conditions.

comments ???

The new Sony 54 Megapixel sensor for medium format may beat the Quattro.

Obviously it should.

I don't think the Sigma cameras will be usable only in sunny conditions, but they will be at their best at lower ISO settings. ISO 100 or 200 can be used in any light with care. (High Speed Ektachrome film for indoor light was ISO 150 approx.)

Yep. Most young photographers today don't seem to realize that most film photography was done in the ISO range that the Sigmas excel at.

The current "Merrill" sensors can give outstanding results under studio lighting.

And on a tripod at night with long exposures.

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Wayne Larmon
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Sigma cameras are for camera heroes.
In reply to Basalite, 6 months ago

Basalite wrote:

NexOffender wrote:

Any camera can take good pictures in bright sun.

More accurately it is low ISO that the Sigmas excel at. Low ISO doesn't require "bright sun."

It's like bragging that your car is the fastest downhill.

Obviously you don't know much about Sigma cameras and the Foveon sensor they use. It's really sad 11 other people, so far, think likewise.

No Bayer sensor camera can even begin to come close to the image quality that a Foveon sensor can produce for equal amounts of pixel dimensions and sensor surface area.

"No Bayer sensor" may be a bit strong. But Foveon sensors are capable of producing excellent images. Michael Reichmann reviewed a DP2M on Luminous Landscape and was very favorably impressed with the image quality. From the review summary:

In the context of the DP2 Merrill the only photographers who are going to be happy with this camera are ones who can ignore its few faults and rejoice in the remarkable image quality that the camera is capable of. To get the most from the DP2M will require not just patience (hesitant AF, slow buffer writes, lousy raw software, wobbly screen image, etc) but the willingness to put these aside in exchange for what is delivered – the highest image quality from any camera this side of a 36MP+ DSLR or Medium format camera or back. No mincing words. That's what I see.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_dp2m_review.shtml
(Emphasis added.)

Sigma cameras are for camera heroes. (You need to read the review summary to understand this. It is in reference to a NSFW phrase that I can't repeat here. "Definately Not for Camera Wimps" is a Bowdlerized version of what MR wrote.)

Basalite, do you agree with MR's review?

Wayne

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D Cox
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to amalric, 6 months ago

amalric wrote:

D Cox wrote:

Nobody has mentioned what is in my opinion the big defect of these new cameras, which is that the LCD screen doesn't tilt. That means you can't use the camera at waist level, which is the best position for holding a camera steady and avoiding shake.

The new shape suggests that these cameras might mainly be used for Landscape and Portrait on a Tripod, and so the separate button for AF. Just a suggestion.

A tilting screen is particularly needed when the camera is on a tripod or copy stand.

BTW the CEO about not wanting to get too big is interesting. Once you do you must replicate performance and it becomes more difficult and anonymous.

By keeping a certain size instead you keep the art and craft spirit, which saved Leica.

To do it while keeping small prices is genius. But go explain the majority of illiterates here.

As for the shape of the camera it is anticonventional, a crime for those, but again it would match well a tripod, and perhaps even a coat's pocket. Keep in mind that large resolutions need an extremely steady platform.

I have nothing against the general shape.

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D Cox
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to Dissenter, 6 months ago

Dissenter wrote:

When you need a longer focal length?

The idea is that you are buying a top class lens with camera attached. Sigma will be making three focal lengths, so there will be a portrait length lens. May DP users have two or three of the cameras.

When you need a wider focal length?

Buy the DP1Q.

Up the creek without a paddle.

I'd rather get the shot than being an unrealistic fanboy.

These cameras are not for everyone. Many will prefer cameras with changeable lenses, or a superzoom.

It depends on how big you print.

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D Cox
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to Basalite, 6 months ago

Basalite wrote:

D Cox wrote:

Jack Hass wrote:

F2.8 and fixed lens is a deal breaker. Not fast enough for the 45/75mm versions, and im not buying multiple cameras for each application. I have one camera with different lenses that can do everything, ill keep it that way.

Sigma do make a DSLR with changeable lenses too. They will probably update it with the new sensor and battery next year.

Their argument for using fixed lenses is that each lens can be precisely matched to and aligned with the sensor.

Nobody has mentioned what is in my opinion the big defect of these new cameras, which is that the LCD screen doesn't tilt. That means you can't use the camera at waist level, which is the best position for holding a camera steady and avoiding shake.

I say practice your handholding technique. The last time I shot a camera at waist level was with a TLR.

Well, try it with a tilting screen. It may be because I am used to TLRs that waist level seems natural.

Also good for photographic people, as it is less threatening than a camera held at eye level.

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joejack951
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Re: High ISO is for dunderheads who simply don't know how to use a camera
In reply to Basalite, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

ZOMG... AMAZING HIGH ISO...

Quit flagellating yourself and learn how to use a camera... ISO is the last thing you should adjust when in the 1% of your shots you can't adjust your exposure value or your F/stop to get the shot that you want.

There are too many people on DPreview who don't know how to use a camera... let the lens do the heavy lifting, not the body...

So many people run around in circles like my dog does when it greets someone at the door....

ZOMG I CAN SHOOT AT ISO64000 ZOMG MY CAMERA IS AMAZING!!!!

Plonkers...

Most photographers obsessed with high ISO are young and inexperienced.

Do old and experienced photographers only take photos of dead people?

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MoreorLess
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to Basalite, 6 months ago

Basalite wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

the owner of Sigma has stated that the new "Quattro" camera coming out in approx summertime will be unbeatable in sunny conditions.

Low ISO does not equal "sunny conditions."

comments ???

As for the new Sigma sensor, it needs to be better than the previous version for those concerned with higher ISO shooting while retaining the same true resolution as the current sensor. He has already stated the improvement is one stop. I'm not sure redesigning away the core reasoning of how the current sensor works is worth it just for one stop.

Indeed, the problem Sigma will have is that in pretty much all area besides base ISO performance they aren't just a bit behind the competition, there way behind.

At present they have a set of cameras that whilst niche products do have a clear market in there IQ at base ISO, especially there colour rendering. If the new cameras give any of that up then there potentially losing appeal.

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Scott Eaton
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what I've learned from this thread
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

-Because Sigma based cameras excel at low ISO shooting people that desire higher ISO shooting are teenagers and consumers.

-Only Sigma users appreciate image quality.

-If I own a Sigma camera I need to be neurotically obsessed with the bayer interpolation of other cameras.

- Only Sigma based images interpolate to higher DPI levels.

- When I post image galleries taken with a Sigma based camera it is mandatory I declare they were taken with a Sigma.

- Because film emulsions only delivered high quality images with low ISOs (or larger formats) then it's logical to conclude that higher ISO shooting is for teenagers and consumers.

I think the above nails it in a nutshell, and also manages to offend about 99% of commercial shooters and journalists who don't care about the relative abilities of their camera compared to others but use their system for the capabilities it allows them. Shooting bugs and flowers to show off the fact they aren't using a bayer based sensor isn't a priority.

Second, back in those film days low ISO color landscape photography was regarded as the most insipid, boring and cliche faction of visual imagery of any art medium. It was mocked then - it can be mocked now. As to why Sigma users seemed so obsessed with taking pictures of bugs and flowers kind of answers it's own question.

Frankly I'd like to see Sigma do something really radical and invent a sensor that uses more than 3 color filters, which any engineer versed in visual science knows creates a lot of problems with digital capture. Sigmas like any other RGB capture device interpolates a significant amount of color information because it can't discretely see a significant chunk of the visual spectrum but has to interpolate color like any bayer sensor. The difference is Sigma sensors -vs- bayer is their discrete sensor wells don't confuse that information with luminance data at the aquisition level. If Sigma were to do something like this, such as have a five or six aquisition filters they'd have every technical shooter on the planet lined up out the door. For now, you can keep the really sharp RGB images and insult other system owners that they are visually imparied. Just not worth it, as market share indicates.

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Aaron801
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Re: Multiple Cameras Can Be Good
In reply to Basalite, 6 months ago

I'm just curious about your choice of gear/emthodology. While it's true that there are certain advantages to going this multiple camera w/ fixed lens route, you have to admit that it's kind of an unusual choice and I'm wondering why (besides protecting the sensors from dust) you arrived at this unusual solution. I wonder what kind of photographs you take and why you feel that these sort of cameras offer an advantage for doing that sort of thing....?

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TRIODEROB
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Re: what I've learned from this thread
In reply to Scott Eaton, 6 months ago

how is this for a digital camera from 2002 ?

its a Sigma !

if you think the image quality is horrid dont just say it - please post a photo taken with a camera from the same early time period to compare it to.

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Peter A. Stavrakoglou
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to dinoSnake, 6 months ago

dinoSnake wrote:

Peter A. Stavrakoglou wrote:

There is no board to fire him. It's a family-owned company and he is at the top.

Thank you for that information.

Don't think that just because it is family-owned that they automatically make the best business decisions for it - I'd advise you to look at the histories of Toyo Kogyo (Mazda), Daewoo and Sampoong Group to learn something about this.

In the case of Sigma, Kazuto has made some very good decisions since taking the helm - the 18-35mm f1.4 lens being one of them.

-- hide signature --

My humble photo gallery: http://www.pete-the-greek.com

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Dissenter
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Re: what I've learned from this thread
In reply to TRIODEROB, 6 months ago

TRIODEROB wrote:

how is this for a digital camera from 2002 ?

its a Sigma !

if you think the image quality is horrid dont just say it - please post a photo taken with a camera from the same early time period to compare it to.

There's millions of photos even before that era that are better, heard of this thing called filM?

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Dissenter
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to D Cox, 6 months ago

D Cox wrote:

Up the creek without a paddle.

I'd rather get the shot than being an unrealistic fanboy.

These cameras are not for everyone. Many will prefer cameras with changeable lenses, or a superzoom.

It depends on how big you print.

My point proven. This camera is not the be all and end all of IQ.

It's got plenty of drawbacks.

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new boyz
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to TRIODEROB, 6 months ago

Emmm.. kinda agree. But for higher ISO, every camera beats it.

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enemjii
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Re: what I've learned from this thread
In reply to TRIODEROB, 6 months ago

how is this for a digital camera from 2002 ?

its a Sigma !

if you think the image quality is horrid dont just say it - please post a photo taken with a camera from the same early time period to compare it to.

That was then. How about now?

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gaussian blur
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to Basalite, 6 months ago

Basalite wrote:

Yeah, it'll be a great camera when it takes over the world. Or it will fail miserably, as Sigma cameras tend to do.

A camera, or any product, does not have to have a big market share to be very successful and very profitable. Macs and iPhones are a perfect example of that.

A business needs to be profitable and sustainable.

Sigma's market share is under 1% and shrinking (it was slightly over 1% several years back) and their CEO said he 'hopes to make the camera division stable,' which means that it's not in good shape.

My Sigma cameras haven't failed me yet.

Luck. Reliability is not their strong suit.

They give me ridiculously better image quality than I can get with a Bayer sensor camera. 15MP of Bayer looks like crap next to 15MP of Foveon.

If you're really getting 'crap', then the Bayer camera is defective or you're doing something wrong.

Which camera is it, and how did you compare them? Were the images of the same subject taken with the same settings and in the same conditions with the same post processing? If not, it's not a valid comparison (and it almost never is).

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dinoSnake
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Re: "But at low ISO nothing can beat this camera." - CEO SIGMA
In reply to zodiacfml, 6 months ago

zodiacfml wrote:

dnoSnake wrote:

That is an awfully restrictive clause of operation. It makes me wonder where the CEO's head is: the test of the works is fighting for higher ISO hegemony and here is Sigma, pretty much saying that they are ignoring an entire market and seeking their own path. And then, year after year, their camera sales fall below their hopes and expectations (I'm sure).

Maybe it's time for the board of directors to look into some new upper management...if only modern corporate boards did more than simply cover their Old Boys Club paychecks.

You don't know much. Sigma today is what Canon and Nikon in the past. I don't even hope they get as big, all I want are their cameras that meets my expectations for image quality (high resolution is only a small part of IQ).

MF users get by CCD sensors....but look at the IQ.

The business decsion regarding the Quattro still makes absolutely no sense.

For example:

Here is a company that will introduce 3 cameras, all sharing the same body and undoubtedly sharing the same sensor as well as electronics, only so that 3 different focal length lenses can be offered.

Therefore, if the prospective owner desires more than the single focal length that they bought (or will buy)...they must buy an entire second camera, sensor and all.

Why not simply design a bayonet and have yourself (speaking from Sigma's perspective) a (very marketable) mirrorless ILC system for that growing market?

Sigma did almost all the work! They designed and created the body molds, designed and created the circuitry, integrated a one-of-a-kind sensor array, set up a battery system including dealing with recharging and power readouts, even took into account 3 different lenses into the design matrix...and then, what?! Did the market-limiting idea of selling the 3 different lenses attached to 3 completely separate bodies!

SIGMA, YOU WERE 95% THERE!! You could have made yourself a system out of your Quattro design, a system that prospective owners would be happy to invest in under the assumption that they could grow in the future...

but no. No, you just didn't go there, did you? Instead you are pushing 3 separate cameras on customers. In an age of Sony A7's, Olympus E-P5's and E-M1's, Panasonic GX7's, Fuji X-Pro1 and the likes of Nikon 1's / Samsung NX / Canon EOS-M, you go and make three separate fixed-lens cameras in a market that is embracing the concept of interchangeable mirrorless designs.

Wow. Just...wow. Talk about Back to the Future! Sigma certainly wasn't looking at the market around them when they finalized the design(s) on this product, that's for sure!! Sigma was this close to having an ILC system all their own, with the unique advantages of the Foveon sensor that is a HUGE selling point all their own, and what do they do? NOTHING! They design a series of cameras as if it is still 2008!

As Maxwell Smart says, "Missed it by THAT much"

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