Misinformation about m4/3

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El Chubasco
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Misinformation about m4/3
6 months ago

I am taking a photography workshop and las night I found myself in a funny or frustrating situation. First, the group is about 15 people and of course, I am the only one who uses a m4/3 camera. Everyone else in the room uses nikon or canon.

Well, the funny thing started when the instructor stated that crop factor does not apply to APS sensors when you use APS designed lens. In other words, he stated that the 18mm lens of an APS canikon covers the exact same angle as if using a full frame 18mm lens in a FF camera. I tried to explain that the 18 lens in APS sensor would be close to a 28mm of FF but he refused to believe me. When I said that I use m4/3 as an example to make my point (multiplying focal length by 2) he said "well, with a micro 4/3 you have a real problem" making everyone believe that m4/3 cameras actually pose problems for photographers.

The discussion went on and it deviated in something else. I just learned that some old-fashion pros who have always used FF have no idea of what cropping factor means and how lenses compensate to sensor's size. Even worse, people have the conviction that m4/3 are "problematic" and make believe other the same. Anyway, I do not know where I am going with this, perhaps I am just venting.

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Martin.au
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

"Those who can't do, teach." perhaps?

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Richard Weisgrau
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

Get your money back. The workshop leader is a dinosaur or a dunce!

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dennis tennis
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

Are you expecting everyone in the world to have the correct information about everything?

Do you consider mFT fanbos who goes around saying that mFT is the future and everything else are dinosaurs to be the same misinformed group or do you hail them as heroes.

You vent because people were wrong about mFT so I"m asking you this, do you publicly stand up for other systems when an mFT fanboy starts bad mouthing other systems?

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dennis tennis
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to Martin.au, 6 months ago

Martin.au wrote:

"Those who can't do, teach." perhaps?

So an Olympus\Pany workshop trainer is equally inept?

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Guy Parsons
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Crop stuff
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

El Chubasco wrote:

I am taking a photography workshop and las night I found myself in a funny or frustrating situation. First, the group is about 15 people and of course, I am the only one who uses a m4/3 camera. Everyone else in the room uses nikon or canon.

Well, the funny thing started when the instructor stated that crop factor does not apply to APS sensors when you use APS designed lens. In other words, he stated that the 18mm lens of an APS canikon covers the exact same angle as if using a full frame 18mm lens in a FF camera. I tried to explain that the 18 lens in APS sensor would be close to a 28mm of FF but he refused to believe me. When I said that I use m4/3 as an example to make my point (multiplying focal length by 2) he said "well, with a micro 4/3 you have a real problem" making everyone believe that m4/3 cameras actually pose problems for photographers.

The discussion went on and it deviated in something else. I just learned that some old-fashion pros who have always used FF have no idea of what cropping factor means and how lenses compensate to sensor's size. Even worse, people have the conviction that m4/3 are "problematic" and make believe other the same. Anyway, I do not know where I am going with this, perhaps I am just venting.

Get the instructor to read this page http://dpanswers.com/content/tech_crop.php as it seems to be the best one around explaining this sort of stuff.

If he refuses to read it then bye, bye, waste of time being there.

Regards...... Guy

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Bluephotons
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You just read my mind! (NT)
In reply to Richard Weisgrau, 6 months ago
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Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

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Marla
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

This reminds me of when I purchased my first digital camera. After about a month of teaching myself, I decided to take a class on digital photography. After the 2nd class I discovered I knew a great deal more than the teacher and was answering the students questions for the most part. Since I've always been a bit "technically challenged" - I did not know much at that time!

I must say, it made me feel good though!

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Maria

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BarnET
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to dennis tennis, 6 months ago

I use both systems. Both have their distinct advantages.

An instructor that claims that an aps -c designed lens has that equivalent focal length corrected should go to an refreshing course since that is complete and utter bull****.

M43 is not inferior to apsc in every way. Panasonic's are great in video and both pana and oly offer stellar IQ for the size. Apsc dslr's still have an significant edge for sports because of their superior tracking capabilities.

This is not important for everyone. However until they solve this shortcoming mirrorles can't replace Dslr's. Until now they can only complement them.

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Henry Richardson
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Not so unusual to find a poor teacher
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

You have discovered that some teachers collect their pay, but don't really know much about what they are teaching and probably don't care to know. A few years ago I was talking with a guy who had been teaching for years at a photography school. When I mentioned an old 120 film camera I had he thought that 120 film was in a cartridge. I believe he was confused with 126 film which was in a drop-in cartridge, but 120 film is in a paper backed roll. For someone who taught for years at a photography school where 120, 35mm, large format, etc. were routinely used I was pretty surprised.

He also told me that although he still taught at the school he hadn't actually taken a single photo in a decade or so. He told me he had hundreds of rolls of exposed, but unprocessed 35mm film that he had taken over the years, but had never been interested enough in them to process them. Basically, I determined he was taking up space, collecting his salary, and providing little or no benefit to his students. He sounded like he had probably been burnt out for decades (he was in 60s) and had almost no interest in photography anymore -- if he ever did.

Although not always true, he was an example of those who can't do, teach, and those who can't teach, teach photography.

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Chris Noble
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Learning from the pros
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

El Chubasco wrote:

I am taking a photography workshop and las night I found myself in a funny or frustrating situation. First, the group is about 15 people and of course, I am the only one who uses a m4/3 camera. Everyone else in the room uses nikon or canon.

Well, the funny thing started when the instructor stated that crop factor does not apply to APS sensors when you use APS designed lens. In other words, he stated that the 18mm lens of an APS canikon covers the exact same angle as if using a full frame 18mm lens in a FF camera. I tried to explain that the 18 lens in APS sensor would be close to a 28mm of FF but he refused to believe me. When I said that I use m4/3 as an example to make my point (multiplying focal length by 2) he said "well, with a micro 4/3 you have a real problem" making everyone believe that m4/3 cameras actually pose problems for photographers.

The discussion went on and it deviated in something else. I just learned that some old-fashion pros who have always used FF have no idea of what cropping factor means and how lenses compensate to sensor's size. Even worse, people have the conviction that m4/3 are "problematic" and make believe other the same. Anyway, I do not know where I am going with this, perhaps I am just venting.

I have encountered a surprising number of pros who are not experts in the technical aspects. And yet they make a living making and selling photos that people are willing to pay money for.

I assume this pro can teach you some valuable esthetic and artistic and photo business skills. And you can get your technical knowledge from DPReview.

Enjoy the course!

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El Chubasco
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Re: Learning from the pros
In reply to Chris Noble, 6 months ago

Chris Noble wrote:

El Chubasco wrote:

I am taking a photography workshop and las night I found myself in a funny or frustrating situation. First, the group is about 15 people and of course, I am the only one who uses a m4/3 camera. Everyone else in the room uses nikon or canon.

Well, the funny thing started when the instructor stated that crop factor does not apply to APS sensors when you use APS designed lens. In other words, he stated that the 18mm lens of an APS canikon covers the exact same angle as if using a full frame 18mm lens in a FF camera. I tried to explain that the 18 lens in APS sensor would be close to a 28mm of FF but he refused to believe me. When I said that I use m4/3 as an example to make my point (multiplying focal length by 2) he said "well, with a micro 4/3 you have a real problem" making everyone believe that m4/3 cameras actually pose problems for photographers.

The discussion went on and it deviated in something else. I just learned that some old-fashion pros who have always used FF have no idea of what cropping factor means and how lenses compensate to sensor's size. Even worse, people have the conviction that m4/3 are "problematic" and make believe other the same. Anyway, I do not know where I am going with this, perhaps I am just venting.

I have encountered a surprising number of pros who are not experts in the technical aspects. And yet they make a living making and selling photos that people are willing to pay money for.

I assume this pro can teach you some valuable esthetic and artistic and photo business skills. And you can get your technical knowledge from DPReview.

Enjoy the course!

Actually you are right. I am enjoying the course very much and I respect highly the work of the instructor as photographer. I was just frustrated for the situation and his lack of openness to learn something new and his inability to recognize that others might have the right answer.

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El Chubasco
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to dennis tennis, 6 months ago

dennis tennis wrote:

Are you expecting everyone in the world to have the correct information about everything?

Do you consider mFT fanbos who goes around saying that mFT is the future and everything else are dinosaurs to be the same misinformed group or do you hail them as heroes.

You vent because people were wrong about mFT so I"m asking you this, do you publicly stand up for other systems when an mFT fanboy starts bad mouthing other systems?

No, I am not expecting everyone to have the correct information about everything, I know that is impossible. I do not quite understand your point and surely you did not understand mine. I am just saying that there is misinformation out there and that misinformation is spread to novices creating wrong impressions. The discussion was about APS and FF equivalence and through that conversation I learned that some people have misconceptions about m4/3. I would have tried to make my point across regardless of the system in discussion. I was frustrated with the dissemination of false information and the closeness to admit an error or to learn something new. Are you willing to learn something new?

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dennis tennis
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

El Chubasco wrote:

dennis tennis wrote:

Are you expecting everyone in the world to have the correct information about everything?

Do you consider mFT fanbos who goes around saying that mFT is the future and everything else are dinosaurs to be the same misinformed group or do you hail them as heroes.

You vent because people were wrong about mFT so I"m asking you this, do you publicly stand up for other systems when an mFT fanboy starts bad mouthing other systems?

No, I am not expecting everyone to have the correct information about everything, I know that is impossible. I do not quite understand your point and surely you did not understand mine. I am just saying that there is misinformation out there and that misinformation is spread to novices creating wrong impressions. The discussion was about APS and FF equivalence and through that conversation I learned that some people have misconceptions about m4/3. I would have tried to make my point across regardless of the system in discussion. I was frustrated with the dissemination of false information and the closeness to admit an error or to learn something new. Are you willing to learn something new?

If it answers your question.  I have every brand, every type out there so I'm used to new systems but by now, every system is Old to me because I currently own every one.

The only system I don't own is the Pentax Q.  Everything else I have

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Martin.au
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to dennis tennis, 6 months ago

dennis tennis wrote:

El Chubasco wrote:

dennis tennis wrote:

Are you expecting everyone in the world to have the correct information about everything?

Do you consider mFT fanbos who goes around saying that mFT is the future and everything else are dinosaurs to be the same misinformed group or do you hail them as heroes.

You vent because people were wrong about mFT so I"m asking you this, do you publicly stand up for other systems when an mFT fanboy starts bad mouthing other systems?

No, I am not expecting everyone to have the correct information about everything, I know that is impossible. I do not quite understand your point and surely you did not understand mine. I am just saying that there is misinformation out there and that misinformation is spread to novices creating wrong impressions. The discussion was about APS and FF equivalence and through that conversation I learned that some people have misconceptions about m4/3. I would have tried to make my point across regardless of the system in discussion. I was frustrated with the dissemination of false information and the closeness to admit an error or to learn something new. Are you willing to learn something new?

If it answers your question. I have every brand, every type out there so I'm used to new systems but by now, every system is Old to me because I currently own every one.

The only system I don't own is the Pentax Q. Everything else I have

Sure ya do. I bet you even take photos too.

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amalric
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

El Chubasco wrote:

dennis tennis wrote:

Are you expecting everyone in the world to have the correct information about everything?

Do you consider mFT fanbos who goes around saying that mFT is the future and everything else are dinosaurs to be the same misinformed group or do you hail them as heroes.

You vent because people were wrong about mFT so I"m asking you this, do you publicly stand up for other systems when an mFT fanboy starts bad mouthing other systems?

No, I am not expecting everyone to have the correct information about everything, I know that is impossible. I do not quite understand your point and surely you did not understand mine. I am just saying that there is misinformation out there and that misinformation is spread to novices creating wrong impressions. The discussion was about APS and FF equivalence and through that conversation I learned that some people have misconceptions about m4/3. I would have tried to make my point across regardless of the system in discussion. I was frustrated with the dissemination of false information and the closeness to admit an error or to learn something new. Are you willing to learn something new?

Actually if what you said is true, extraordinary as it might be, perhaps you should ask your teacher to actually compare a FF35 and a lesser format at the same focal range.

The DOF difference is quite visible in the viewfinder, even between APS and m4/3 in terms of perspective.

One can later discuss the differences in noise and Dynamic Range. People with prejudices tend to make a whole of very different things, witness those who use Equivalence arguments against m4/3 even here.

These people are like dogs.

Am.

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ukeolo
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

Same happened to me few days ago: received an invitation to a photo course containing an express strong invitation to bring only reflex cameras as compact and mirrorless owners are not likely to get advantages the course is supposed to bring them... unbelievable

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maoyama
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Re: Crop stuff
In reply to Guy Parsons, 6 months ago

Guy Parsons wrote:

Get the instructor to read this page http://dpanswers.com/content/tech_crop.php as it seems to be the best one around explaining this sort of stuff.

If he refuses to read it then bye, bye, waste of time being there.

Regards...... Guy

Perhaps it was just a bit of miscommunication between the OP and the instructor?

From that article - "Some photographers, however, have worked for a long time with 135-format film and are used to thinking about FOV in terms of focal lengths of lenses attached to 35 mm film cameras instead of degrees. For them, the crop factor is a convenient way of computing the 35 mm film “equivalent” or “effective” focal length from the real focal length."

Maybe this is what that instructor was trying to explain. That APS-C or m43 aren't being cropped in any way - for example, that m43 20mm 1.7 lens actually do have a focal length of 20mm, and that it is only 40mm when you think about it in terms of full frame cameras. It's just a convenience for people who are too used to working with 35mm films.

Of course, the instructor's response afterwards seems very unprofessional, and would have offended me too.

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GeorgianBay1939
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Re: Learning from the pros
In reply to El Chubasco, 6 months ago

El Chubasco wrote:

Chris Noble wrote:

I have encountered a surprising number of pros who are not experts in the technical aspects. And yet they make a living making and selling photos that people are willing to pay money for.

I assume this pro can teach you some valuable esthetic and artistic and photo business skills. And you can get your technical knowledge from DPReview.

Enjoy the course!

Actually you are right. I am enjoying the course very much and I respect highly the work of the instructor as photographer. I was just frustrated for the situation and his lack of openness to learn something new and his inability to recognize that others might have the right answer.

Yes, enjoy the course.  Just keep your BS deflectors at the ready.  Something like enjoying the conversations at this forum.   : )

Tom

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maoyama
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Re: Misinformation about m4/3
In reply to dennis tennis, 6 months ago

dennis tennis wrote:

Are you expecting everyone in the world to have the correct information about everything?

Wow.  Hyperbole much?  Where in his post does he say anything to that effect?

Do you consider mFT fanbos who goes around saying that mFT is the future and everything else are dinosaurs to be the same misinformed group or do you hail them as heroes.

You vent because people were wrong about mFT so I"m asking you this, do you publicly stand up for other systems when an mFT fanboy starts bad mouthing other systems?

What do these questions about the OP's character have anything to do with this thread about his experience in a photography workshop, and why does it matter to you?

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