Interesting read by Thom Hogan

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
GaryW
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to captura, 8 months ago

captura wrote:

GaryW wrote:

xinn3r wrote:

GaryW wrote:

By the way, the worst problem, IMO, with using FE lenses on Nex cameras is that the "fast hybrid" AF is not supported. This would seem to me to be a serious limitation.

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Gary W.

I see contradicting posts here regarding FE lenses supporting PDAF on APS-C sensors.

Anyone have a definitive answer? Does FE lenses support NEX-6 on sensor PDAF for example?

I have to admit, I read that in another thread and am not sure if it's actually true, but they claimed to have pulled the info from the Sony website. You could go to the page with the FE lens in question and see what cameras are supported, but until someone actually tries it, who knows for sure?

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Gary W.

I already posted the evidence about the FE55 being fast hybrid, from a Sony site. Do you need me to look that up and post it again?

Steve

Do you mean this post?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53112178

I followed the link and I don't see anything about whether or not PDAF is supported on the Nex-6 with this lens attached.

Maybe you have another link?  I can't find the recent post where someone listed all of the cameras that were supported by the FE lenses.

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Gary W.

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jpr2
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Gary: the FE55 is not supported on N6 with OSPDAF
In reply to GaryW, 8 months ago

GaryW wrote:

Do you mean this post?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53112178

I followed the link and I don't see anything about whether or not PDAF is supported on the Nex-6 with this lens attached.

Maybe you have another link? I can't find the recent post where someone listed all of the cameras that were supported by the FE lenses.

the post/link is correct. The FE55 is mentioned:

The following lenses with Fast Hybrid AF and are only supported for use with the ILCE-7 model:

  • SEL2870 (28-70mm F3.5-5.6 Full Frame FE Lens)
  • SEL35F28Z (Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 Full Frame FE Lens)
  • SEL55F18Z (Sonnar T* 55mm F1.8 Full Frame FE Lens <--------------
  • SELP18105G (E PZ 18-105mm F4)

jpr2

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wb2trf
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Re: Room for both? Like view cameras, maybe, maybe not.
In reply to Russell Evans, 8 months ago

Russell Evans wrote:

wb2trf wrote:

Russell Evans wrote:

wb2trf wrote:

They are powerless, as the technology and the market will put an end to mirrors in the light box, just as surely as it did to every other mechanical contrivance for which an electronic substitute was developed.

What do you use to shave with? I would bet the razor market is larger than the electric market, but I can't find any data in searching. There is room for both though, and that's how it will be with DSLRs and mirrorless. Neither is going to die out or rule.

dslr's may not literally die out any more than view cameras have, although due to their manufacturing complexity they are at much greater risk.

Not really. The manufacturing cost of mirror, or no mirror, is pretty negligible when you consider the cost of adding the extra electronics needed for an EVF.

You're wildly wrong, I believe.  Read the disassembly of the A7 on Lensrentals and how many parts there are by comparison to dslrs, just the screws, which require assembly.  Labor of assembly and number of parts is where the cost is.  Furthermore a dslr is defined as having an ovf, but lots of mirrorless can be sold without evf at all.

For all I know somebody still makes typewriters, even though had I made my statement about typewriters three years after the PC came out, I would have been as correct about that as I am about this. That took probably 15 years? This won't take that long.

Personal computers made people more productive, made work easier, and increased profits. There's nothing that is driving the adoption of mirrorless cameras other than personal preference.

Here's the thing, if any company in the industry is telling themselves your kind of razor story, they are certainly dead. Over and over again this story plays out. Suppose I had told you in 1995 that Kodak was dead? The giant of the industry. Gone.

Did the microwave kill the stove?

It does require judgment to see that the dslr is going to either be a niche product or gone, but I'm telling you that if Canikon believes what you are saying, they're dead in this market.  No one ever argued that the microwave will replace the stove.  The judgement in this case is because the dslr has fewer long term advantages than view cameras had compared to slrs and far more complexity. They have no long term advantages and many functional disadvantages, in addition to cost of manufacturing.  Just a few years ago it was, evf will never be as good as ovf and pdaf is exclusive to dslrs.  Both of those are greatly faded now. One hears those claims much less now and they will not only vanish but instead the advantages of evf and ospdaf are and will continue coming to the forefront.

I'll bet that the margins on the A3000 when retailed at the sale price of $300 are 2x those of the D3200 sold at $439, and it takes better pictures.

The D3200 and D5200 are probably made of 90% of the same materials and probably 70% of the parts in the other Nikon DSLR bodies are common. Nikon sold what, 7 million DSLRs last year? We know DSLRs outsell mirrorless at, what is it 4 or 5 to one? That's a lot of economy of scale to make up by removing the mirror and throwing a cheap LCD and EVF in a box.

Furthermore, Nikon has to pay Sony for the chip in that thing. Sony can put the retail price squeeze on Nikon at the low end to the point that the only margins in the Nikon camera are being realized by Sony. Do you realize what a miserable competitive position that is to be in? Nikon has Sony supplying them with sensors top to bottom while Sony is putting those same sensors into cameras that cost half a much to make using many of those same sensors. That is a classically horrible competitive position to be in.

Cuts both ways. Sony can't keep its sensor factories open without someone buying them. Nikon with Toshiba probably caused more than a few sleepless nights for Sony executives.

Hogan is clueless. Bowing his violin while his city burns.

I agree that he is not seeing the entire picture , but DSLRs aren't going to die out. The photography market is simply going to be more diverse,

That might happen if the whole market were growing, but the camera market is under huge pressure from phone cams that is sucking revenue out of it. The A3000 and less expensive versions of it from many manufacturers will suck revenue out of mass market dslrs. Dslrs at the low end are bottomed out on price based on cost, I suspect, but I think we'll see $150 ILCs that offer just as good IQ or better very soon.  I also think that we'll see strong runs on that strategy from Samsung and then from some Chinese makers, who'll probably buy a dead camera brand from the Japanese.

where more of the pie is split more ways. Nikon might fail if it can't deal with it's previous debt in a shrinking market, but it won't disappear. It will restructure, blah, blah, blah...

Agreed Nikon as an entity is different from the dslr business.

I do think that everything about Hogan's thinking and his column reek of a rapidly fading era.  As is pointed out by others here, the whole camera "system thinking" (one camera for all purposes, many lenses) is losing its grip, and he doesn't see that either.  I expect him to fade into the sunset like some Newtonian physicist after the ether vanished from the universe.

Thank you
Russell

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TO11MTM
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Re: I think Thom makes valid points....
In reply to tex, 8 months ago

tex wrote:

...And then we add in the consideration of 3rd party manufacturers---who are making some mighty nice lenses!----and I don't feel this issue is nearly as significant as he argues. In another thread I opined that if I were head of Sony camera division I'd be working really really hard on more agreements with other lens manufacturers: Sigma, Tamron, Cosina and Samyang to complement the existing relationship with Zeiss. Just sayin'.

Sony last I knew still owned a 11% stake in Tamron...

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captura
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to GaryW, 8 months ago

GaryW wrote:

captura wrote:

GaryW wrote:

xinn3r wrote:

GaryW wrote:

By the way, the worst problem, IMO, with using FE lenses on Nex cameras is that the "fast hybrid" AF is not supported. This would seem to me to be a serious limitation.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

I see contradicting posts here regarding FE lenses supporting PDAF on APS-C sensors.

Anyone have a definitive answer? Does FE lenses support NEX-6 on sensor PDAF for example?

I have to admit, I read that in another thread and am not sure if it's actually true, but they claimed to have pulled the info from the Sony website. You could go to the page with the FE lens in question and see what cameras are supported, but until someone actually tries it, who knows for sure?

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

I already posted the evidence about the FE55 being fast hybrid, from a Sony site. Do you need me to look that up and post it again?

Steve

Do you mean this post?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53112178

I followed the link and I don't see anything about whether or not PDAF is supported on the Nex-6 with this lens attached.

Maybe you have another link? I can't find the recent post where someone listed all of the cameras that were supported by the FE lenses.

Gary,

Yes that's the one.

" the term "advanced electronic-optical hybridization" leaps out at me from this Sony review of the Zeiss Sonnar T* FE 55mm F1.8 ZA lens. This seems to be the Sony term for "Fast-Hybrid AF."

http://store.sony.com/sonnar-t-fe-55mm-f1.8-za-zid27-SEL55F18Z/cat-27-catid-All-Alpha-NEX-Lenses#BVRRWidgetID'

Also seen via this page, there's this about 2X Clear Image zoom which is attainable with this new lens: "Clear Image Zoom makes this prime lens into a video zoom lens; e. g., Clear Image Zoom 2X through the Sony FE 55 mm F/1.8-F/22 Carl Zeiss prime lens, takes it up to 110 mm telephoto. Thereby, this lens can take portraits with spectacular F/1.8 bokeh or close ups with exquisitely detailed F/22 razor-sharp compositions""

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GaryW
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to captura, 8 months ago

captura wrote:

Gary,

Yes that's the one.

" the term "advanced electronic-optical hybridization" leaps out at me from this Sony review of the Zeiss Sonnar T* FE 55mm F1.8 ZA lens. This seems to be the Sony term for "Fast-Hybrid AF."

http://store.sony.com/sonnar-t-fe-55mm-f1.8-za-zid27-SEL55F18Z/cat-27-catid-All-Alpha-NEX-Lenses#BVRRWidgetID'

Where does it say that the fast-hybrid AF works on,say, the Nex-6?

The point is, if Sony is only going to produce FE lenses going forward, it'd be nice to be able to use them effectively on existing cameras. Maybe that would be a problem with APS-C lenses too?  If it requires a FW update for every new lens, that's a pain, and Sony is less likely to do that for older cameras. It's a weakness in the e-mount.

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Gary W.

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spacemn
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to GaryW, 8 months ago

GaryW wrote:

captura wrote:

Gary,

Yes that's the one.

" the term "advanced electronic-optical hybridization" leaps out at me from this Sony review of the Zeiss Sonnar T* FE 55mm F1.8 ZA lens. This seems to be the Sony term for "Fast-Hybrid AF."

http://store.sony.com/sonnar-t-fe-55mm-f1.8-za-zid27-SEL55F18Z/cat-27-catid-All-Alpha-NEX-Lenses#BVRRWidgetID'

Where does it say that the fast-hybrid AF works on,say, the Nex-6?

The point is, if Sony is only going to produce FE lenses going forward, it'd be nice to be able to use them effectively on existing cameras. Maybe that would be a problem with APS-C lenses too? If it requires a FW update for every new lens, that's a pain, and Sony is less likely to do that for older cameras. It's a weakness in the e-mount.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

It is not plausible to think that FE lenses won't work with PDAF AF on APS-C bodies. My APS-C 35mm f/1.8 for instance works fine with PDAF with my A7.

I think it is a big part of Sony's strategy that FE lenses must be attractive on APS-C bodies as well.

For example both 35mm and 55mm FE lenses have a great FOV on APS-C bodies. The FE 70-200mm is great on APS-C as well. Only ultra wide and standard FE zooms are probably not a great idea on APS-C bodies, but here we are talking about 2-3 lenses.

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GaryW
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to spacemn, 8 months ago

spacemn wrote:

GaryW wrote:

Where does it say that the fast-hybrid AF works on,say, the Nex-6?

The point is, if Sony is only going to produce FE lenses going forward, it'd be nice to be able to use them effectively on existing cameras. Maybe that would be a problem with APS-C lenses too? If it requires a FW update for every new lens, that's a pain, and Sony is less likely to do that for older cameras. It's a weakness in the e-mount.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

It is not plausible to think that FE lenses won't work with PDAF AF on APS-C bodies. My APS-C 35mm f/1.8 for instance works fine with PDAF with my A7.

I think it is a big part of Sony's strategy that FE lenses must be attractive on APS-C bodies as well.

APS-C lenses should be attractive on APS-C bodies, but yet Sony requires a FW update for PDAF to work. (I applied this FW update on my Nex-6 already.)  They have a short list of lenses that were part of that update.  Next week, they could come out with a lens -- either APS-C or FE -- and PDAF wouldn't be supported (probably).

For example both 35mm and 55mm FE lenses have a great FOV on APS-C bodies. The FE 70-200mm is great on APS-C as well. Only ultra wide and standard FE zooms are probably not a great idea on APS-C bodies, but here we are talking about 2-3 lenses.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

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Vagner Rondon
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to edwardaneal, 8 months ago

edwardaneal wrote:

"some very successful professionals who get by perfectly well with only 2 or three lenses."

Which lenses?

For me, it may be a set and another set for another photographer completely different.

Two or three lenses do not cover all types of photographers and photographs.

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tesilab
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Cf Fuji interview re: "trust"
In reply to Geedorama, 8 months ago

Thom asks can we trust them?

Now the Dpreview interview with Fuji is out, and they speak about how they would rather build trust with customer base by updating even discontinued models than make a few extra sakes of the newer model.

I have more respect for Sony's technical achievements with sensors so far, and I'm pumped about some very nice Zeiss pairings. I own no Fujis other than an old 4x5 lens. But Fuji is becoming very hard not to like, possibly even trust. I'm renting an XT-1 with three lenses in a month. It's possible another little nudge in the right direction from Fuji will make me a brand loyal user.

And don't give me the tired argument how bad their initial firmware was and in dire need of updates. They're past that point now. Did you read how the XE-2 EVF refresh rate is about to be brought up to the XT-1's level?

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ProfHankD
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Re: Cf Fuji interview re: "trust"
In reply to tesilab, 8 months ago

tesilab wrote:

Now the Dpreview interview with Fuji is out, and they speak about how they would rather build trust with customer base by updating even discontinued models than make a few extra sakes of the newer model.

Fuji's handling of the "white orbs" issue -- which was basically shipping a known seriously defective product for over a year while denying there was a problem, and then refusing to label the fixed version so consumers could tell which they were getting -- destroyed any "trust" I'd have for them.  Good that they are trying to make good now, but they have a lot to apologize for.....

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liquid stereo
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to walnorth, 8 months ago

walnorth wrote:

Geedorama wrote:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/can-you-trust-the-camera.html

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/guido_2007/
Ideally, the lens captures what the eye had in mind...but the damn thing won't listen.

Respectfully, this just makes me feel old. How many lenses do you need? My first pro job was in 1965 for Ford Motor. I've used view cameras. How many lenses did I need to do everything I needed to do? I've used Hasselblads? How many lenses were there in their lineup? I've used Leica. How many lenses make up a nice and useable kit? (hint, viewfinder) I liked Leica CL as a small carry camera with just a 40 and a 90. I moved to a Contax G as a small carry camera (carrying a view camera 24/7 is a bit tiring). How many lenses there? Fortunately, I kept the 28, 45, and 90 and use them on my NEX7.

Sometimes there is a need for exotic lenses. I have gear lust as much as anyone, but a limited list of lenses from a camera company is not a barrier to your taking great photos.

I've taught photography part time, for the pleasure, including at a school of architecture. One lesson was to use one lens and one camera until it feels like a part of you. Until you can operate the camera without any thought. Know what the scene will look like through your lens before you raise the camera to your eye. When done, you can move on to a second lens. The photographer's attention needs to be on the relationship between the photographer and the subject. If the photographer's attention is on the camera, good photos will appear on the contact sheet only by chance.

You may need 2 or 3. I may need 2 or 3. Martha may need 2 or 3. Or are you suggesting that I or Marha don't. Shall we hope they're all the same? Shall we hope that our needs don't change.

You've had your photographic journey. Its wonderful that we can each have our own. I happen agree with much of what you wrote. Trust in a company to provide tools that align with our needs/desires is somewhat necessary. Especially as the lenses are not inexpensive.

Personally, I currently have little/no trust in Sony. That being said, I do believe they're doing what they must - find a way to make money! It's not easy.

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Richard Mauro
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to Geedorama, 8 months ago
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spacemn
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to GaryW, 8 months ago

GaryW wrote:

spacemn wrote:

GaryW wrote:

Where does it say that the fast-hybrid AF works on,say, the Nex-6?

The point is, if Sony is only going to produce FE lenses going forward, it'd be nice to be able to use them effectively on existing cameras. Maybe that would be a problem with APS-C lenses too? If it requires a FW update for every new lens, that's a pain, and Sony is less likely to do that for older cameras. It's a weakness in the e-mount.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

It is not plausible to think that FE lenses won't work with PDAF AF on APS-C bodies. My APS-C 35mm f/1.8 for instance works fine with PDAF with my A7.

I think it is a big part of Sony's strategy that FE lenses must be attractive on APS-C bodies as well.

APS-C lenses should be attractive on APS-C bodies, but yet Sony requires a FW update for PDAF to work. (I applied this FW update on my Nex-6 already.) They have a short list of lenses that were part of that update. Next week, they could come out with a lens -- either APS-C or FE -- and PDAF wouldn't be supported (probably).

For example both 35mm and 55mm FE lenses have a great FOV on APS-C bodies. The FE 70-200mm is great on APS-C as well. Only ultra wide and standard FE zooms are probably not a great idea on APS-C bodies, but here we are talking about 2-3 lenses.

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Gary W.

To me that sounds like a paranoid assumption.

It was perfectly understandably when some lenses had to be firmware updated to support a brand new PDAF technology. Yes down the line there may be a new tech, but that is not only a problem for Sony cameras. For now most E lenses and ALL FE lenses support PDAF and will work with PDAF with all OS-PDAF bodies.

What is the problem really, or are we creating a new one?

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jpr2
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re: problem? not of E-mount users making !!!
In reply to spacemn, 8 months ago

ask Sony WHY some lenses are NOT supported on all OSPDAF equipped bodies:

"The following lenses are compatible with Fast Hybrid AF and are supported for use with the ILCE-7, NEX-5T, NEX-5R, and NEX-6 models:

  • SEL1018 (E 10-18mm F4)
  • SEL18200 (E 18-200mm F3.5-6.3)
  • SEL18200LE (E 18-200mm F3.5-6.3)
  • SEL1855 (E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6)
  • SEL20F28 (E 20mm F2.8)
  • SEL24F18Z (Sonnar T* E 24mm F1.8)
  • SEL30M35 (E 30mm F3.5 Macro)
  • SEL35F18 (E 35mm F1.8)
  • SEL50F18 (E 50mm F1.8)
  • SEL55210 (E 55- 210mm F4.5-6.3)
  • SELP1650 (E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6)
  • SELP1670Z (Vario-Tessar T* E16-70mm F4)
  • SELP18200 (E PZ 18-200mm F3.5-6.3)

IMPORTANT: Make sure both your camera and the lens have the latest firmware installed to ensure compatibility. Software and driver updates for your Sony product are available online.

The following lenses with Fast Hybrid AF and are only supported for use with the ILCE-7 model:

  • SEL2870 (28-70mm F3.5-5.6 Full Frame FE Lens)
  • SEL35F28Z (Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 Full Frame FE Lens)
  • SEL55F18Z (Sonnar T* 55mm F1.8 Full Frame FE Lens
  • SELP18105G (E PZ 18-105mm F4)

NOTE: Visit the Sony® Store website for pricing and availability of individual lenses. Information about current or soon to be available Sony® products and accessories is available online through the Sony Store".

jpr2

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justmeMN
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Another trust issue...
In reply to Geedorama, 8 months ago

Do you trust that, five years from now, your chosen brand will still be making digital cameras? As the entire market contracts, the smaller players will be forced out of the market.

Sony and Panasonic are megacorps, that can get along just fine without camera divisions. Olympus is a thriving medical technology company, that doesn't really need a camera division either.

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socode
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to spacemn, 8 months ago

spacemn wrote:

GaryW wrote:

spacemn wrote:

GaryW wrote:

Where does it say that the fast-hybrid AF works on,say, the Nex-6?

The point is, if Sony is only going to produce FE lenses going forward, it'd be nice to be able to use them effectively on existing cameras. Maybe that would be a problem with APS-C lenses too? If it requires a FW update for every new lens, that's a pain, and Sony is less likely to do that for older cameras. It's a weakness in the e-mount.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

It is not plausible to think that FE lenses won't work with PDAF AF on APS-C bodies. My APS-C 35mm f/1.8 for instance works fine with PDAF with my A7.

I think it is a big part of Sony's strategy that FE lenses must be attractive on APS-C bodies as well.

APS-C lenses should be attractive on APS-C bodies, but yet Sony requires a FW update for PDAF to work. (I applied this FW update on my Nex-6 already.) They have a short list of lenses that were part of that update. Next week, they could come out with a lens -- either APS-C or FE -- and PDAF wouldn't be supported (probably).

For example both 35mm and 55mm FE lenses have a great FOV on APS-C bodies. The FE 70-200mm is great on APS-C as well. Only ultra wide and standard FE zooms are probably not a great idea on APS-C bodies, but here we are talking about 2-3 lenses.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

To me that sounds like a paranoid assumption.

It was perfectly understandably when some lenses had to be firmware updated to support a brand new PDAF technology.

With all due respect it isn't at all. It points to some reasonably-foreseeable aspect of the lens protocol that was simply excluded or missed by original engineers working to a deadline and delivering the bare minimum.

Does anyone with a real understanding of this know exactly what needs to be added? Commands to move a stepper motor to a precise stop? Do the lenses need to return current step point rather than simply a distance?

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Clayton1985
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Re: Interesting read by Thom Hogan
In reply to Habs Fan27, 8 months ago

Habs Fan27 wrote:

I did preface by saying it was A-mount was reasonably complete. Sony will never compete with Canon or Nikon on lens system completeness.

I think most people understand this which is why the criticisms about moving in too many directions may be valid.

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MizBrown
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Re: About the lenses
In reply to ProfHankD, 8 months ago

ProfHankD wrote:

Why have Canon and Nikon continued to dominate the market? Because they're there. Go to a department store or big-box store and try to buy a Sony. They don't have them. Sony hasn't yet learned how to get product on shelves and into store displays. This is probably based in the rigid way in which Sony lets stores get and sell their product. In my opinion, that's the thing Sony has to fix -- and they could.

The only interchangeable digital camera I could buy in Jinotega, Nicaragua, was the Sony A3000.  It's also the cheapest equivalent camera at Radio Shacks here -- with the other available cameras being entry level Nikons and Canons at a higher price point.  The guy at the Radio Shack an hour way in Matagalpa said the A3000 is selling quite well.

Sony doesn't just think about the North American and Europeans markets.

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GaryW
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I'm not getting a DSLR!
In reply to justmeMN, 8 months ago

justmeMN wrote:

Do you trust that, five years from now, your chosen brand will still be making digital cameras?

Even if I didn't, what do you want me to do?  Buy a camera from another brand that may still be making digital cameras but not the ones I want?  As someone else posted recently, where is the guarantee that Canon will continue making EOS-M?  Suddenly, Sony seems like the safe bet for mirrorless!

I guess if I knew someone was about to get out of the business, I'd avoid throwing a lot of money into a product (unless I had to have it and wanted to ensure I had it before it was gone!), but I just don't have any concern at the moment.

As the entire market contracts, the smaller players will be forced out of the market.

Not everyone needs to be forced out.  Perhaps Sony is in a good position to capitalize on the technology changes.  Why so negative?

Sony and Panasonic are megacorps, that can get along just fine without camera divisions. Olympus is a thriving medical technology company, that doesn't really need a camera division either.

They didn't need it, yet they built these divisions up.  Why not?

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Gary W.

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