Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Euell
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to hip2, 5 months ago

hip2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

As if that's the only spec that ever mattered in a camera...

The specs are all a moving target, I'm afraid, but I think Sony screwed the good-will pooch in letting out its full-frame cameras and a very few months later letting out an APSC camera with a superior major spec. To be frank, I was considering picking up an A7 or A7R before the A6000 came out. Now, I can see that these are not the "sweet spot" models. Gonna wait, but in the meantime pick up the A6000 to complement the NEX 6 and Canon equipment.

That's ridiculous. You can't seriously believe that every full frame camera has to have superior spec in every area to every APS-C camera.

Top of the line should have the best spec.

So then you're saying that the D4s should have a 36Mp sensor, the D7000 shouldn't have a 24Mp sensor. 5Dmkiii should have greater DR than 6D and on and on.

Look at the sum of the parts grasshopper. The sum of the parts.

Who says that 36mp sensor is Nikon's best?

Trust me, it is.

What I am saying is that Sony hosed the buyers of the A7 and A7r, when Sony put out a downmarket camera a few months later with superior technology under the hood.

What you said is that the higher end camera should have the better specs. You've got a lot to learn if you don't realize why the A7 remains on top. Have you seen any A7 owners crying over it? Nope.

And, you, my friend, have a lot to learn if you think that the A7 and its R variant are not soon to be replaced by new models with the AF technology in the A6000. Whether you cry or not is your business.

I sure hope that this happens !

it means that when i'm ready to buy a new camera, there will actually be better cameras out there to choose from.

even better if there is an A9R with a new technology we cannot even imagine now !

very nice ! thanks for getting my hopes up.
we truly live in a very nice time for photographers with all these options to choose from, and new toys to look forward to in the near to far future !

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- The French HiP -

+1 on that, brother !

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quezra
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

As if that's the only spec that ever mattered in a camera...

The specs are all a moving target, I'm afraid, but I think Sony screwed the good-will pooch in letting out its full-frame cameras and a very few months later letting out an APSC camera with a superior major spec. To be frank, I was considering picking up an A7 or A7R before the A6000 came out. Now, I can see that these are not the "sweet spot" models. Gonna wait, but in the meantime pick up the A6000 to complement the NEX 6 and Canon equipment.

Is this your first time buying cameras?

Own several; purchased many. Why do you ask silly questions?

Because it sure sounds like it's the first time you've noticed new tech coming out a few months later that's better that claims to be better than old tech!

You don't get it. My point is not that Sony provided AF technology for an APSc camera that was kept out of a prior full frame camera, but rather that, because of the extremely short interval between introduction of the A7/A7r cameras and the A6000, that AF technology was almost certainly available prior to the production run of the A7/A7r. In other words, Sony has once again, I think, based its marketing strategy on deliberate contrived planned obsolescence designed to part you from your hard earned lucre as quickly as possible. Can you deny this with any evidence to the contrary? I very much doubt it.

And you don't get that a sensor about twice the size with larger glass and thinner DoF probably does not have the same AF capabilities given the same processor.  I'd love it if it were merely firmware fixable, and do you honestly think Sony wouldn't put it in a firmware update and seal up this MILC space for good?  If planned obsolescence is the goal, then we should see a new model within 1 year.  But look at NEX-7, A77 ... they aren't even replacing those 2+ years later, even when they could at any time have slipped one or two new cool toys into it and called it a day (which is what Canon does: add one incremental improvement and call it the 'new' model).  Even NEX-6 took 1.5 years for a replacement.  Look at RX1R ... how come it didn't get A7 AF tech?  It's even the same sensor!  It is you who has no evidence of this alleged "planned obsolescence".

Look, you don't have an A7.  You lost nothing.  Why all the faux concern for us who are perfectly happy with our A7s?

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Euell
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

As if that's the only spec that ever mattered in a camera...

The specs are all a moving target, I'm afraid, but I think Sony screwed the good-will pooch in letting out its full-frame cameras and a very few months later letting out an APSC camera with a superior major spec. To be frank, I was considering picking up an A7 or A7R before the A6000 came out. Now, I can see that these are not the "sweet spot" models. Gonna wait, but in the meantime pick up the A6000 to complement the NEX 6 and Canon equipment.

Is this your first time buying cameras?

Own several; purchased many. Why do you ask silly questions?

Because it sure sounds like it's the first time you've noticed new tech coming out a few months later that's better that claims to be better than old tech!

You don't get it. My point is not that Sony provided AF technology for an APSc camera that was kept out of a prior full frame camera, but rather that, because of the extremely short interval between introduction of the A7/A7r cameras and the A6000, that AF technology was almost certainly available prior to the production run of the A7/A7r. In other words, Sony has once again, I think, based its marketing strategy on deliberate contrived planned obsolescence designed to part you from your hard earned lucre as quickly as possible. Can you deny this with any evidence to the contrary? I very much doubt it.

And you don't get that a sensor about twice the size with larger glass and thinner DoF probably does not have the same AF capabilities given the same processor. I'd love it if it were merely firmware fixable, and do you honestly think Sony wouldn't put it in a firmware update and seal up this MILC space for good? If planned obsolescence is the goal, then we should see a new model within 1 year. But look at NEX-7, A77 ... they aren't even replacing those 2+ years later, even when they could at any time have slipped one or two new cool toys into it and called it a day (which is what Canon does: add one incremental improvement and call it the 'new' model). Even NEX-6 took 1.5 years for a replacement. Look at RX1R ... how come it didn't get A7 AF tech? It's even the same sensor! It is you who has no evidence of this alleged "planned obsolescence".

Look, you don't have an A7. You lost nothing. Why all the faux concern for us who are perfectly happy with our A7s?

The A7 and A7r are both FINE CAMERAS. Absolutely, no doubt. If you want to defend Sony's business practices, fine. I don't.Nor do I have a "faux concern" for purchasers of the A7/A7r purchasers. Really the concern is that without public awareness Sony is likely to continue and even expand what I consider to be sleazy business practices that will affect all of us.

Obviously, the AF on the A6000 cannot be engrafted upon the A7/A7r with a firmware fix, because it is sensor-related.  Could Sony have included the improved AF in the A7/A7r? I believe so and I believe Sony intentionally withheld that technology to provide a reason for a quick update of the A7/A7r. It is unlikely the update would come in 2014, but my guess is an update will likely come in 2015 ad maybe early 2015. But, regardless, these cameras are competent tools and will take good pics.  Peronally, I am leaning towards Canon with respect to full frame due mainly to my Canon lens inventory. The NEX is used for international travel for non-wildlife photography to keep down volume and enhance portability on planes and so far I have been mostly pleased with the photographic results.  With respect to APSc vs. full frame, I print on paper sizes  13x19, 17x22 and 17x25.  I have some pretty good cropped 17x22 prints that were taken with the 10 megapixel Canon 40D, so have not really been in a hurry to move to full frame, although I do miss the low light advantage.

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Euell
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Re: kids...........
In reply to zodiacfml, 5 months ago

zodiacfml wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

technology or just plain physics? FF lenses are not only bigger but heavier also. You just can't have the AF speed of the Nikon 1 series to your FF camera.

Canon and Nikon are likely to disagree

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Euell
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Re: kids...........
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

quezra wrote:

Have you shot with the A7 yet? The AF is quite fast as is. So the improvement to whatever a6000 is either likely to be very marginal (i.e. we're not actually missing much), or already actually the same mechanics, only the larger FF sensor/smaller DoF make it harder to achieve given the same processor.

Euell has never shot the A7, and is hoping to generate an artificial storm of dissatisfaction among A7 users, a pattern of other people with their private dissatisfaction hoping to make others unhappy to put 'pressure' on Sony. Too bad most of us who own it are actually too happy with our cameras to care about his raving. If you are an A7 user, how fast do you find the AF? If you're not, then you have lost nothing so why do you care?

By all reports the A7/A7r are great cameras. But, Sony should be taken to task for what I think is contrived obsolescence and a sleazy business practice.

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BubbaHotepUK
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

I see Sony using the A6000 as the beta test before the PDAF technology moves to the full frame range.

Today's product cycles demand this iterative approach to feature development.  The question is not whether Sony shafted customers, but whether it's the manufacturers or customers who are responsible for these ludicrous product lifecycles.

I personally blame it all on the internet.

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Euell
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to BubbaHotepUK, 5 months ago

BubbaHotepUK wrote:

I see Sony using the A6000 as the beta test before the PDAF technology moves to the full frame range.

Today's product cycles demand this iterative approach to feature development. The question is not whether Sony shafted customers, but whether it's the manufacturers or customers who are responsible for these ludicrous product lifecycles.

I personally blame it all on the internet.

And, I have a bridge I will sell you

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neil holmes
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Give it a rest!
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

And you don't get that a sensor about twice the size with larger glass and thinner DoF probably does not have the same AF capabilities given the same processor. I'd love it if it were merely firmware fixable, and do you honestly think Sony wouldn't put it in a firmware update and seal up this MILC space for good? If planned obsolescence is the goal, then we should see a new model within 1 year. But look at NEX-7, A77 ... they aren't even replacing those 2+ years later, even when they could at any time have slipped one or two new cool toys into it and called it a day (which is what Canon does: add one incremental improvement and call it the 'new' model). Even NEX-6 took 1.5 years for a replacement. Look at RX1R ... how come it didn't get A7 AF tech? It's even the same sensor! It is you who has no evidence of this alleged "planned obsolescence".

Look, you don't have an A7. You lost nothing. Why all the faux concern for us who are perfectly happy with our A7s?

The A7 and A7r are both FINE CAMERAS. Absolutely, no doubt. If you want to defend Sony's business practices, fine. I don't.Nor do I have a "faux concern" for purchasers of the A7/A7r purchasers. Really the concern is that without public awareness Sony is likely to continue and even expand what I consider to be sleazy business practices that will affect all of us.

Obviously, the AF on the A6000 cannot be engrafted upon the A7/A7r with a firmware fix, because it is sensor-related. Could Sony have included the improved AF in the A7/A7r? I believe so and I believe Sony intentionally withheld that technology to provide a reason for a quick update of the A7/A7r. It is unlikely the update would come in 2014, but my guess is an update will likely come in 2015 ad maybe early 2015. But, regardless, these cameras are competent tools and will take good pics. Peronally, I am leaning towards Canon with respect to full frame due mainly to my Canon lens inventory. The NEX is used for international travel for non-wildlife photography to keep down volume and enhance portability on planes and so far I have been mostly pleased with the photographic results. With respect to APSc vs. full frame, I print on paper sizes 13x19, 17x22 and 17x25. I have some pretty good cropped 17x22 prints that were taken with the 10 megapixel Canon 40D, so have not really been in a hurry to move to full frame, although I do miss the low light advantage.

Let it be please!

Sony put out the cameras it wanted to in the A7 and the A7R at the time it wanted to.

NOBODY had to buy either and I chose to buy the A7 on the specs it had ....not what may or may not, could or could not have been included.

Could Sony have put out a camera with "better auto focus"?.....maybe, possibly who knows...the point is I don't care and I bought the camera they DID put out and a camera I am VERY happy with.

I am sure a Sony camera will come out soon that DOES have better af than the A7/A7R...so what, my A7 will still work fine.

The A7/A7R may well have been a bit rushed to market....again, so what .....they work as designed...not as they are NOT designed!.

May I suggest you go take some photos now with your A6000....oh wait you can't.....

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quezra
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Re: kids...........
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Have you shot with the A7 yet? The AF is quite fast as is. So the improvement to whatever a6000 is either likely to be very marginal (i.e. we're not actually missing much), or already actually the same mechanics, only the larger FF sensor/smaller DoF make it harder to achieve given the same processor.

Euell has never shot the A7, and is hoping to generate an artificial storm of dissatisfaction among A7 users, a pattern of other people with their private dissatisfaction hoping to make others unhappy to put 'pressure' on Sony. Too bad most of us who own it are actually too happy with our cameras to care about his raving. If you are an A7 user, how fast do you find the AF? If you're not, then you have lost nothing so why do you care?

By all reports the A7/A7r are great cameras. But, Sony should be taken to task for what I think is contrived obsolescence and a sleazy business practice.

You can't make a claim of 'planned' obsolescence until you see a camera replacement coming in long before a typical replacement cycle. Claiming it will be so based on your flimsy evidence-free hypothesis is laughable.

Are you parallaxproblem in disguise?

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Euell
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Re: kids...........
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Have you shot with the A7 yet? The AF is quite fast as is. So the improvement to whatever a6000 is either likely to be very marginal (i.e. we're not actually missing much), or already actually the same mechanics, only the larger FF sensor/smaller DoF make it harder to achieve given the same processor.

Euell has never shot the A7, and is hoping to generate an artificial storm of dissatisfaction among A7 users, a pattern of other people with their private dissatisfaction hoping to make others unhappy to put 'pressure' on Sony. Too bad most of us who own it are actually too happy with our cameras to care about his raving. If you are an A7 user, how fast do you find the AF? If you're not, then you have lost nothing so why do you care?

By all reports the A7/A7r are great cameras. But, Sony should be taken to task for what I think is contrived obsolescence and a sleazy business practice.

You can't make a claim of 'planned' obsolescence until you see a camera replacement coming in long before a typical replacement cycle. Claiming it will be so based on your flimsy evidence-free hypothesis is laughable.

Are you parallaxproblem in disguise?

Flimsy evidence? Hardly. Given the timing, Sony has to have made a business decision NOT to include the improved auto focus on the A7/A7r.  Could have been that it would have delayed the A7/A7r production runs somewhat, or, more likely, there was a marketing decision to wait and include the improved AF in the next A7/A7r iteration.  Whichever, Sony could not have been ignorant of the technology when they began marketing the A7/A7r, as they undoubtedly already had the sensor chip prototypes for the A6000 in hand at that time last fall.

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quezra
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Re: kids...........
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Have you shot with the A7 yet? The AF is quite fast as is. So the improvement to whatever a6000 is either likely to be very marginal (i.e. we're not actually missing much), or already actually the same mechanics, only the larger FF sensor/smaller DoF make it harder to achieve given the same processor.

Euell has never shot the A7, and is hoping to generate an artificial storm of dissatisfaction among A7 users, a pattern of other people with their private dissatisfaction hoping to make others unhappy to put 'pressure' on Sony. Too bad most of us who own it are actually too happy with our cameras to care about his raving. If you are an A7 user, how fast do you find the AF? If you're not, then you have lost nothing so why do you care?

By all reports the A7/A7r are great cameras. But, Sony should be taken to task for what I think is contrived obsolescence and a sleazy business practice.

You can't make a claim of 'planned' obsolescence until you see a camera replacement coming in long before a typical replacement cycle. Claiming it will be so based on your flimsy evidence-free hypothesis is laughable.

Are you parallaxproblem in disguise?

Flimsy evidence? Hardly. Given the timing, Sony has to have made a business decision NOT to include the improved auto focus on the A7/A7r. Could have been that it would have delayed the A7/A7r production runs somewhat, or, more likely, there was a marketing decision to wait and include the improved AF in the next A7/A7r iteration. Whichever, Sony could not have been ignorant of the technology when they began marketing the A7/A7r, as they undoubtedly already had the sensor chip prototypes for the A6000 in hand at that time last fall.

No, you are claiming:

1) A7 AF is noticeably slower than A6000 - we don't know this yet. A7 AF is actually quite fast in good light.  The two sensor sizes are vastly different, which means you don't even have a like-for-like comparison to make your claim, never mind side-by-side tests off a production model A6000.  And you don't have either camera for that matter.

2) That A7's alleged slower AF is due to a technologically different system present in the A6000 that is not present in the A7.  You don't have any evidence for this claim either, and not having seen what is actually inside either, nor able to make a like-for-like comparison, you can only go off your evidence-free assertion.

3) That Sony actually could have put these chips into the A7 in time for release.  Which may or may not have been possible, may or may not have made a physical difference, and may or may not have fit into each camera's release schedules.

4) That Sony is planning a hasty update to their flagships to 'force' everyone to upgrade.  Which aside from having no proof whatsoever for the claim, is based on all your previous assumptions above.

Sony can be criticized for many things, but paranoid fears that they're intentionally dumping old technology (which somehow manages to be faster in AF than all previous E-mount cameras) based on a bunch of speculative guesses built on top of speculative assumptions is really dumb.

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sportyaccordy
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to Dennis, 5 months ago

Dennis wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line?

Sensor-based technology usually makes its way up the sensor chain, from smallest to largest.

Yep. BSI for example is pretty old but still hasn't hit anything bigger than 1" IIRC.

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hip2
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Re: 55mm
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

hip2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

hip2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

hip2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

SQLGuy wrote:

Euell wrote:

Tim Devine wrote:

Full frame sensors are more challenging to develop. The AF features provided by the A6000 sensor will work their way up to the full frame line I believe.

I'm not upset...the a7R is great for my purposes. I wouldn't have wanted them to hold up the release for this.

-Tim

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

I'm sure those AF features or even better AF will work its way up to the full frame line. Some people say they don't care and/or never use AF anyway. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

No. You just don't get it.

I was actually very pleased to see that Sony was trying to push better AF into their more mainsteam mirrorless lineup, but I bought a NEX-5 for legacy glass, I upgraded to a NEX-7 for legacy glass, and the A7 was basically the camera I've been waiting for since digital ILCs were introduced.

What's the A6000 sensor going to do for me? It's APS-C. I want full frame. It has better PDAF... that's not even going to give me faster focus peaking. If they had included this functionality in the A7, I wouldn't have minded, but it would also have made very little (if any) difference in how I use my camera.

Sorry not to support your theory. BTW, odds are, if you had bought an A7, you would probably have already returned it because it doesn't appear to be the right camera for what you want to do. Isn't that why you didn't buy one? Have you pre-ordered your A6000 yet?

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

Yes, preordered the A6000 from B&H. I'm not sure Sony full frame is in the picture for me, more likely Canon or maybe even Nikon, due to the paucity of quality Sony full frame lenses and Sony pricing on its lenses.

The 55mm is a bargain and it could be the only lens you ever need

-- hide signature --

- The French HiP -

Too long for general use on APSc.

Then use it on Full Frame, which was what you were talking about...

-- hide signature --

- The French HiP -

Not I, Sir.

you were the one that said "I'm not sure Sony full frame is in the picture for me, more likely Canon or maybe even Nikon, due to the paucity of quality Sony full frame lenses and Sony pricing on its lenses."

it's even in the quote...

i suggested the 55mm as the only lens you would ever need...
but you seem only here to bash on Sony systems anyway, so you don't care or you will try to dodge most of the remarks people are making, like you are trying right now

-- hide signature --

- The French HiP -

What are you smoking? Must be really good stuff. Work on clarity in your writing. My post indicated a present interest in APSc, rather than full frame, and you provided a suggestion for a 55mm lens, which, as I indicated, is too long for a general purpose lens on an APSc. From all reports the 55mm is a really excellent lens. Maybe you just like to argue. Hmm??

You should read your own post then...

you said you preordered the A6000, and that you did not want a Sony Full Frame because of a lack of quality lenses.
55mm on APS can be too long for some (me included), but on Full Frame, it's alright. especially considering its exceptional IQ. check it out, try it, you could make an exception just for this

and yes, i like to troll trolls

-- hide signature --

- The French HiP -

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Euell
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Re: kids...........
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Have you shot with the A7 yet? The AF is quite fast as is. So the improvement to whatever a6000 is either likely to be very marginal (i.e. we're not actually missing much), or already actually the same mechanics, only the larger FF sensor/smaller DoF make it harder to achieve given the same processor.

Euell has never shot the A7, and is hoping to generate an artificial storm of dissatisfaction among A7 users, a pattern of other people with their private dissatisfaction hoping to make others unhappy to put 'pressure' on Sony. Too bad most of us who own it are actually too happy with our cameras to care about his raving. If you are an A7 user, how fast do you find the AF? If you're not, then you have lost nothing so why do you care?

By all reports the A7/A7r are great cameras. But, Sony should be taken to task for what I think is contrived obsolescence and a sleazy business practice.

You can't make a claim of 'planned' obsolescence until you see a camera replacement coming in long before a typical replacement cycle. Claiming it will be so based on your flimsy evidence-free hypothesis is laughable.

Are you parallaxproblem in disguise?

Flimsy evidence? Hardly. Given the timing, Sony has to have made a business decision NOT to include the improved auto focus on the A7/A7r. Could have been that it would have delayed the A7/A7r production runs somewhat, or, more likely, there was a marketing decision to wait and include the improved AF in the next A7/A7r iteration. Whichever, Sony could not have been ignorant of the technology when they began marketing the A7/A7r, as they undoubtedly already had the sensor chip prototypes for the A6000 in hand at that time last fall.

No, you are claiming:

1) A7 AF is noticeably slower than A6000 - we don't know this yet. A7 AF is actually quite fast in good light. The two sensor sizes are vastly different, which means you don't even have a like-for-like comparison to make your claim, never mind side-by-side tests off a production model A6000. And you don't have either camera for that matter.

2) That A7's alleged slower AF is due to a technologically different system present in the A6000 that is not present in the A7. You don't have any evidence for this claim either, and not having seen what is actually inside either, nor able to make a like-for-like comparison, you can only go off your evidence-free assertion.

3) That Sony actually could have put these chips into the A7 in time for release. Which may or may not have been possible, may or may not have made a physical difference, and may or may not have fit into each camera's release schedules.

4) That Sony is planning a hasty update to their flagships to 'force' everyone to upgrade. Which aside from having no proof whatsoever for the claim, is based on all your previous assumptions above.

Sony can be criticized for many things, but paranoid fears that they're intentionally dumping old technology (which somehow manages to be faster in AF than all previous E-mount cameras) based on a bunch of speculative guesses built on top of speculative assumptions is really dumb.

Can't talk sense to a Sony fanboy, I suppose.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

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hip2
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Re: And now we get to the crux of it
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

hip2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

As if that's the only spec that ever mattered in a camera...

The specs are all a moving target, I'm afraid, but I think Sony screwed the good-will pooch in letting out its full-frame cameras and a very few months later letting out an APSC camera with a superior major spec. To be frank, I was considering picking up an A7 or A7R before the A6000 came out. Now, I can see that these are not the "sweet spot" models. Gonna wait, but in the meantime pick up the A6000 to complement the NEX 6 and Canon equipment.

It IS sour grapes but from you since the A7 (and A6000) are not what YOU wanted....too funny.

It is (A7) what I wanted.....completely useless auto focus and all.

Wrong. Already preordered the A6000 from B&H. Definiitely looks promising forAPSC

Well, that's what you say. but with all you're saying, we can only doubt.

and even if you did preorder just to show us a meaningless proof, you can still cancel right away

-- hide signature --

- The French HiP -

You are correct, with B&H I could cancel, but so far I haven't seen a reason to, have you?

except if you only preorder (or claim to preorder...) to make some kind of false impression that you are not here to troll

-- hide signature --

- The French HiP -

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quezra
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Re: kids...........
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Have you shot with the A7 yet? The AF is quite fast as is. So the improvement to whatever a6000 is either likely to be very marginal (i.e. we're not actually missing much), or already actually the same mechanics, only the larger FF sensor/smaller DoF make it harder to achieve given the same processor.

Euell has never shot the A7, and is hoping to generate an artificial storm of dissatisfaction among A7 users, a pattern of other people with their private dissatisfaction hoping to make others unhappy to put 'pressure' on Sony. Too bad most of us who own it are actually too happy with our cameras to care about his raving. If you are an A7 user, how fast do you find the AF? If you're not, then you have lost nothing so why do you care?

By all reports the A7/A7r are great cameras. But, Sony should be taken to task for what I think is contrived obsolescence and a sleazy business practice.

You can't make a claim of 'planned' obsolescence until you see a camera replacement coming in long before a typical replacement cycle. Claiming it will be so based on your flimsy evidence-free hypothesis is laughable.

Are you parallaxproblem in disguise?

Flimsy evidence? Hardly. Given the timing, Sony has to have made a business decision NOT to include the improved auto focus on the A7/A7r. Could have been that it would have delayed the A7/A7r production runs somewhat, or, more likely, there was a marketing decision to wait and include the improved AF in the next A7/A7r iteration. Whichever, Sony could not have been ignorant of the technology when they began marketing the A7/A7r, as they undoubtedly already had the sensor chip prototypes for the A6000 in hand at that time last fall.

No, you are claiming:

1) A7 AF is noticeably slower than A6000 - we don't know this yet. A7 AF is actually quite fast in good light. The two sensor sizes are vastly different, which means you don't even have a like-for-like comparison to make your claim, never mind side-by-side tests off a production model A6000. And you don't have either camera for that matter.

2) That A7's alleged slower AF is due to a technologically different system present in the A6000 that is not present in the A7. You don't have any evidence for this claim either, and not having seen what is actually inside either, nor able to make a like-for-like comparison, you can only go off your evidence-free assertion.

3) That Sony actually could have put these chips into the A7 in time for release. Which may or may not have been possible, may or may not have made a physical difference, and may or may not have fit into each camera's release schedules.

4) That Sony is planning a hasty update to their flagships to 'force' everyone to upgrade. Which aside from having no proof whatsoever for the claim, is based on all your previous assumptions above.

Sony can be criticized for many things, but paranoid fears that they're intentionally dumping old technology (which somehow manages to be faster in AF than all previous E-mount cameras) based on a bunch of speculative guesses built on top of speculative assumptions is really dumb.

Can't talk sense to a Sony fanboy, I suppose. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

All I see is you tucking tail and running without yet posting a shred of evidence.

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sportyaccordy
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Re: kids...........
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Have you shot with the A7 yet? The AF is quite fast as is. So the improvement to whatever a6000 is either likely to be very marginal (i.e. we're not actually missing much), or already actually the same mechanics, only the larger FF sensor/smaller DoF make it harder to achieve given the same processor.

Euell has never shot the A7, and is hoping to generate an artificial storm of dissatisfaction among A7 users, a pattern of other people with their private dissatisfaction hoping to make others unhappy to put 'pressure' on Sony. Too bad most of us who own it are actually too happy with our cameras to care about his raving. If you are an A7 user, how fast do you find the AF? If you're not, then you have lost nothing so why do you care?

By all reports the A7/A7r are great cameras. But, Sony should be taken to task for what I think is contrived obsolescence and a sleazy business practice.

You can't make a claim of 'planned' obsolescence until you see a camera replacement coming in long before a typical replacement cycle. Claiming it will be so based on your flimsy evidence-free hypothesis is laughable.

Are you parallaxproblem in disguise?

Flimsy evidence? Hardly. Given the timing, Sony has to have made a business decision NOT to include the improved auto focus on the A7/A7r. Could have been that it would have delayed the A7/A7r production runs somewhat, or, more likely, there was a marketing decision to wait and include the improved AF in the next A7/A7r iteration. Whichever, Sony could not have been ignorant of the technology when they began marketing the A7/A7r, as they undoubtedly already had the sensor chip prototypes for the A6000 in hand at that time last fall.

No, you are claiming:

1) A7 AF is noticeably slower than A6000 - we don't know this yet. A7 AF is actually quite fast in good light. The two sensor sizes are vastly different, which means you don't even have a like-for-like comparison to make your claim, never mind side-by-side tests off a production model A6000. And you don't have either camera for that matter.

2) That A7's alleged slower AF is due to a technologically different system present in the A6000 that is not present in the A7. You don't have any evidence for this claim either, and not having seen what is actually inside either, nor able to make a like-for-like comparison, you can only go off your evidence-free assertion.

3) That Sony actually could have put these chips into the A7 in time for release. Which may or may not have been possible, may or may not have made a physical difference, and may or may not have fit into each camera's release schedules.

4) That Sony is planning a hasty update to their flagships to 'force' everyone to upgrade. Which aside from having no proof whatsoever for the claim, is based on all your previous assumptions above.

Sony can be criticized for many things, but paranoid fears that they're intentionally dumping old technology (which somehow manages to be faster in AF than all previous E-mount cameras) based on a bunch of speculative guesses built on top of speculative assumptions is really dumb.

Can't talk sense to a Sony fanboy, I suppose. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

More like, can't expect sense from an obvious troll. That Sony would intentionally cannibalize a brand new product line, or that they had the tech and chose not to release it or whatever claims you are making are ridiculous. One doesn't have to be a "Sony fanboy" to see this.

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stevo23
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

As if that's the only spec that ever mattered in a camera...

The specs are all a moving target, I'm afraid, but I think Sony screwed the good-will pooch in letting out its full-frame cameras and a very few months later letting out an APSC camera with a superior major spec. To be frank, I was considering picking up an A7 or A7R before the A6000 came out. Now, I can see that these are not the "sweet spot" models. Gonna wait, but in the meantime pick up the A6000 to complement the NEX 6 and Canon equipment.

That's ridiculous. You can't seriously believe that every full frame camera has to have superior spec in every area to every APS-C camera.

Top of the line should have the best spec.

So then you're saying that the D4s should have a 36Mp sensor, the D7000 shouldn't have a 24Mp sensor. 5Dmkiii should have greater DR than 6D and on and on.

Look at the sum of the parts grasshopper. The sum of the parts.

Who says that 36mp sensor is Nikon's best?

Trust me, it is.

What I am saying is that Sony hosed the buyers of the A7 and A7r, when Sony put out a downmarket camera a few months later with superior technology under the hood.

What you said is that the higher end camera should have the better specs. You've got a lot to learn if you don't realize why the A7 remains on top. Have you seen any A7 owners crying over it? Nope.

And, you, my friend, have a lot to learn if you think that the A7 and its R variant are not soon to be replaced by new models with the AF technology in the A6000. Whether you cry or not is your business.

That you think it would cause anyone to cry proves just how green you are in this world.

Everything gets replaced. Whatever you're holding out for - it will be replaced soon after you buy it. And I will buy that one. And you will buy the next one after that. And then me. And then you. And then we die.

Live with it.

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stevo23
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to Catnapp, 5 months ago

Catnapp wrote:

Hi everybody. First post ever, so if you wish, can flame me.

Anyways, the A7 autofocus should be improved via firmware. In daylight conditions its ok, however it can become hesitant in less then ideal (contrasty) situation. And i have experience with the 35 mm, not the 55, which i read is slower in this respect.

As i understand the R model was developed for more static, kinda slomo situations, whereas the Rless model with 120ish PDAF detectors for faster operation. And thats an excellent idea. Now jump to the reviews, and what U see is that there is no major difference in lower light AF-ing quality, well me personally cant prove that, -dont have both cameras- is just what i read.

And here comes the A6000. Very nice camera, compact-simple-fast. Very fast. Now, really dont care about worlds fastestbiggestshortestblahblah, but dont U think its kinda strange? On one hand there is the A7 with soso AF, three month later, with a relatively smaller sensor the 6000 with the worlds best AF, as Sony proudly claims it to be.

I think its a reasonable expectation to have some of that tech injected to the A7. If they do, i promise i buy the 55mm. If not, oh well........ Will keep takin pictures

Not really. Designs and development cycles are to blame as well as marketing or whatever.

First - no one who really shoots will buy a camera just because it has faster autofocus or a higher frame rate. Look at the A7 audience - so many of us are happy because we can go out and hunt down the best of the best lenses - manual focus or not. We couldn't do that with a Canon or Nikon because they only take DSLR lenses. This is the A7 audience - we seek ultimate image quality and features.

Look at it this way - why does Nikon have only a 24Mp sensor (we assume) in the up and coming D4s and yet the D800 currently sports a superior 36Mp sensor with the highest DR, lowest noise, highest resolution of any digital 35mm format camera? And yet their latest has 24Mp that isn't as nice as the D800 sensor? Any thoughts? (Hint, target audience...)

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stevo23
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Re: Ooooh Noooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to Euell, 5 months ago

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

quezra wrote:

Euell wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Euell wrote:

How could Sony put better AF in its APSc line (A6000) than in its recently created full frame line? What were they thinking? Owners of the A7 and A7r must be really disappointed that their cameras were not endowed with this better technology, since they bought them just in the last few months.

As if that's the only spec that ever mattered in a camera...

The specs are all a moving target, I'm afraid, but I think Sony screwed the good-will pooch in letting out its full-frame cameras and a very few months later letting out an APSC camera with a superior major spec. To be frank, I was considering picking up an A7 or A7R before the A6000 came out. Now, I can see that these are not the "sweet spot" models. Gonna wait, but in the meantime pick up the A6000 to complement the NEX 6 and Canon equipment.

Is this your first time buying cameras?

Own several; purchased many. Why do you ask silly questions?

Because it sure sounds like it's the first time you've noticed new tech coming out a few months later that's better that claims to be better than old tech!

You don't get it. My point is not that Sony provided AF technology for an APSc camera that was kept out of a prior full frame camera, but rather that, because of the extremely short interval between introduction of the A7/A7r cameras and the A6000, that AF technology was almost certainly available prior to the production run of the A7/A7r.

Very incorrect assumption. Highly incorrect. Development cycles on these things run in the 1-2 year time frame. Getting them all into one device is nearly impossible. I've been there - it's not like ordering a swing set from Costco.

In other words, Sony has once again, I think, based its marketing strategy on deliberate contrived planned obsolescence designed to part you from your hard earned lucre as quickly as possible. Can you deny this with any evidence to the contrary?

The burden of proof is on you actually. I get that you're sour grapes - I get that. Just get over it already.

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