uh oh, no A7000...?

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
SDF
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to blue_skies, 10 months ago

From DPR's CP+ report, "highlight product of the company's year so far is the a6000. Replacing the NEX-6 (and for now at least, the NEX-7 too)".

So yeah, the A6000 is replacing both Nex-6/7.

blue_skies wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-trusted-sources-no-a7000-aps-c-e-mount-coming-in-2014-main-focus-on-fe-from-now-on/

So we lost Mic input and AF/MF-lock controls?

This can't be real, can it?

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Cheers,
Henry

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Zamac
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to blue_skies, 10 months ago

Suits me...

I will be happy with my NEX7 until at least the end of next year.

People who need better tracking focus might be getting a bit impatient but that's not a problem for me.

One also needs to understand the nature of genuine SAR rumours.

Other than "unofficial" leaks from Sony itself they fall into three time categories:

1. Early rumours probably come from people associated with the field testing or prototype construction

2. Mid term rumours probably come from suppliers and contract manufacturers when Sony starts placing orders

3. Late rumours come from distributors and retailers when Sony starts to warn them so they can move current stock.

Now if the A7000 is just the NEX7 with a new sensor and firmware, then would be no rumours until the new sensors start arriving at the factory and it is told to change the label from NEX-7 to A7000. This could be as little as two months before release.

When it comes will be a marketing decision, not because Sony is concentrating on FE lenses - one cannot just switch a body design team to lens design.

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Waltom
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to blue_skies, 10 months ago

Three things lead me to believe that the rumors of the A7000's demise this year are premature. First of all, Sony model numbers always use 3, 5, 7, and 9.  It goes back to their Minolta roots. The -6 and -8 variants are oddballs. So, when they announce an A6000 we know that there's room for a higher spec model. Second, there's a Photokina this year (September) and I think Sony needs to announce something in the APS-C mirrorless segment just to prove it's still viable. Third, there's a big price gap between the A6000 at $700 and the A7 at $1700. A new A7000 could easily slip in at $1000 and still leave room for the A7 to be discounted. And fourth (!) they downgraded the EVF in the A6000 leaving room for a better EVF to appear in the A7000.

Now it's possible that the A7000 could be in design and Sony is holding off till next Spring in order to put more emphasis on the FF A7 twins. If so, I'd expect the announcement of some new and big at Photokina.

BTW, I do not have sources nor do I have  a rumor site. But SAR was touting a new NEX-7r all last year and all we got was the A6000.

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Waltom
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to KristofferFossum, 10 months ago

KristofferFossum wrote:

There will be a full frame a6 with the nex7 form factor in the price range between a6000 and a7.

Sorry, I don't buy it (and I wouldn't buy it if it was true).  A FF A6 would have to have features removed to fit a lower price point. But an A7000 in roughly the same price point could have to have better features than the A6000 (like a better EVF) and would appeal to far more people in spite of being 'only' APS-C. And I would buy that A7000.

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KelvinHammond
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to blue_skies, 10 months ago

eh, the a6000 sort of eclipses the NEX7 spec-wise, so it may not be necessary to deal with an upgrade. However, I personally have no plans to invest in the A7 FE line, since I already put too much into the NEX-7 E-mount system. In other words, I won't be buying an A7, at all, ever. And I won't be buying the a6000 without a decent firmware upgrade that suits how I use the camera.
That doesn't mean I don't want to buy something new, but neither Sony or Samsung are including the features I need in the firmware on the new cameras. I have plenty of money to spend, but I need what I need. And right, what I would need (or want), is an RX-12  hahhaha  same camera as the RX-10 with an APS-C sized sensor.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to KristofferFossum, 10 months ago

There will be a full frame a6 with the nex7 form factor in the price range between a6000 and a7.

That will be a different audience who would be willing to give up a few features (some may even do without EVF) for a FF sensor. Others will want more features at the expense of sensor size (space occupied by NEX-7, and recently EM1 and XT1).

Sony is in a position to offer both and it is only a matter of time before it does. The holdback at this time will be two recent announcements (a5000, a6000) shortly after a7 and a7r, and possible A-mount body and other lens announcements in couple of months. Sony has to leave something for later part of the year, before the next "holidays".

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Waltom
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to JurijTurnsek, 10 months ago

JurijTurnsek wrote:

In the comments, the admin implies that a7000 will be FF.

Now that's just what Sony needs to do. After they confused the hell out of  us dropping NEX and going to the cockamamie Axxxx designations that are supposed to mean APS-C mirrorless.

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KelvinHammond
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to viking79, 10 months ago

viking79 wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-trusted-sources-no-a7000-aps-c-e-mount-coming-in-2014-main-focus-on-fe-from-now-on/

So we lost Mic input and AF/MF-lock controls?

This can't be real, can it?

If it's Sony, yes. Sony distracts with one feature while taking away with another. A bunch of people will buy this because of the CAF, but they will leave you wanting somewhere else. I am sure Sony will offer that product at another time though, and do the same thing with it

I am not singling out Sony, just that they are an effective marketing company. I think this A6000 is actually more to capture DSLR buyers than anything. Now they just need a DSLR looking camera to go along with some of those features. The continuous focus might be better with a central viewfinder for easier pointing.

Eric

See, and I don't get this. We all buy new computers, We just do, whether we need them or not. And it's not like our Win8 or Lion10.whatever shows up with less features then WinXP had. Some of the hardware changes a little, but in general, the software is always an improvement, though they might quit including MovieMaker at times. 
But with cameras, it seems a bit willy-nilly and inconsistent. If the goal is retain market share against cell phone instagram shooters, then user customization should be priority 1.

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Waltom
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Re: A6000 versus the NEX 7
In reply to Section10, 10 months ago

Section10 wrote:

What am I missing?

I've been waiting for the NEX 7 replacement but with this announcement, save the name 6000, this is just about everything I expected from the $1200 replacement but for $650. Good news for me, it'll get me back into the Sony system (only using rx1r lately and Canon)

I have my Touit waiting for a good hi-res body, only problem there is that benefit to super fast autofocus won't be as noticeable on the Touit.

I heard one say its too many reasons to get into again, but what features are missing? They put the metal body, mode dial, NFC, WIFI...24.3... to me they mixed the NEX 7 and NEX 6 models with A7 and got the A6000. What is the NEX 7 fans missing on this? Tri Nav? ehh, I barely used the second dial, thats why I prefer a mode dial there anyway.

Only thing we're waiting for is actual high ISO samples and performance of everything. To me this was a surprisingly good move for Sony. Or maybe they should've called it A7000 and charged a few hundred more..

What I'm missing with the A6000 is the better EVF, touchscreen and Tri-Navi control. And a better sensor.

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parallaxproblem
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Re: re: the APS-C has one very important, distinct advantage over FF...
In reply to jpr2, 10 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

...which somehow got and still gets overlooked by most (perhaps due to a very poor AF so far - till yesterday, and even that is till in a need of a very good body of actual experiences; the gross majority of Nex'en users were recruited from the ranks of UWA/WA and normal FL ranges) - namely the reach advantage:

  • to have the same reach as e.g. 400mm (and about 1-1.2 kilo weight) on APS-C;
  • one would need a 600mm and 3 kilo (or more) monster on FF;

so, NO... FF A6 will never be the same as N7 mk-II - not for a pretty substantial number of prospective users Which of course are already craving the same excellent level of external controls and UI as they got on N7-classic.

jpr2

Totally agree, but I wonder if Sony are trying to sell us the A79 for that purpose, as currently there are no E-mount lenses that take much advantage of the extra APS-C reach, and the E->A-mount adaptors probably won't support the new speedy PDAF on the A6000

There is talk of very high MP FF sensors in the works (54MP?) which in theory would offer the same crop potential as a 24MP APS-C sensor, though at a price!

I don't want to see APS-C replaced by FF as I appreciate the smaller and cheaper lenses (and if feels 'wasteful' using them on an FF body in 'crop' mode) and the (currently) smaller (un-humped), and cheaper bodies. I'm just trying to interpret what I see from Sony, though of course I could be wrong.

I think that a6k is going to be grossly successful - that is provided that the preliminary findings of its lightning speed AF get confirmed with other than very light-weight lenses as well.

Yes, I also think the camera will be popular

However I hope they let us use the new PDAF with A-mount lenses via an existing or new adaptor, and release a new APS-C lens roadmap with some lenses which will utilise this technology at affordable prices, otherwise it will rather seem like a 'last hurrah' for current NEX customers

Also - as a digression, there is a standing question of AF's accuracy - at 11 fps I don't see much space left for a CDAF performing its usual routine of tiny-weeny steps, vacillating around the critical focus position between each consecutive frame - simple there is no enough time for CDAF to do so.

Which means, the speed advantage must be mostly due to the fast CPU (Bionz X), and a very reliable predictive algorithms = quite accurately telling the lens each time where to go in just one very quick, single sweep. A decades-old, well proven, PDAF-classic trick !! Minimizing potential problems due to latency lags, and mass hysteresis.

.

In other words, the predictive artificial intelligence - esp. for very fast action shooting & tracking, must rely much more on PDAF-part than on CDAF, thus the hybrid-AF solution as known from N6/5R is much less hybrid in a6k than we're accustomed to think given the past experiences,

jpr2

The aditional CPU capabilities of the new camera will certainly play a part in any AF improvements, but maybe there are also some changes on the new sensor which make things better?

We are now in the second/third generation of this technology (16MP APS-C and 24MP FF sensors with OSPDAF) so there must have been some lessons learnt from the previous efforts (and the 'competition' vis-a-vis Nikon 1) which have been fed back into this latest design!

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col4bin
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Re: A6000 versus the NEX 7
In reply to SQLGuy, 10 months ago

Well said and I completely agree. We are going to have a fine camera in the a6000 and I can't wait to get my hands on it.

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jpr2
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Re: re: the APS-C has one very important, distinct advantage over FF...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 10 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

Yes, I also think the camera will be popular

However I hope they let us use the new PDAF with A-mount lenses via an existing or new adaptor, and release a new APS-C lens roadmap with some lenses which will utilise this technology at affordable prices, otherwise it will rather seem like a 'last hurrah' for current NEX customers

Also - as a digression, there is a standing question of AF's accuracy - at 11 fps I don't see much space left for a CDAF performing its usual routine of tiny-weeny steps, vacillating around the critical focus position between each consecutive frame - simple there is no enough time for CDAF to do so.

Which means, the speed advantage must be mostly due to the fast CPU (Bionz X), and a very reliable predictive algorithms = quite accurately telling the lens each time where to go in just one very quick, single sweep. A decades-old, well proven, PDAF-classic trick !! Minimizing potential problems due to latency lags, and mass hysteresis.

.

In other words, the predictive artificial intelligence - esp. for very fast action shooting & tracking, must rely much more on PDAF-part than on CDAF, thus the hybrid-AF solution as known from N6/5R is much less hybrid in a6k than we're accustomed to think given the past experiences,

jpr2

The aditional CPU capabilities of the new camera will certainly play a part in any AF improvements, but maybe there are also some changes on the new sensor which make things better?

We are now in the second/third generation of this technology (16MP APS-C and 24MP FF sensors with OSPDAF) so there must have been some lessons learnt from the previous efforts (and the 'competition' vis-a-vis Nikon 1) which have been fed back into this latest design!

if you remember my list of practical questions concerning the use of a6k the topmost item there was about the LIST (yes, yet another list, but whereas a road map of future lenses seems to be a big, big hurdle for Sony, to compile such a list shouldn't be), an official LIST of all lenses in E-mount which will benefit from the new, supposedly speedy AF on a6k (including also all such FE lenses)

jpr2

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: A6000 versus the NEX 7
In reply to Waltom, 10 months ago

Section10 wrote:

What am I missing?

I've been waiting for the NEX 7 replacement but with this announcement, save the name 6000, this is just about everything I expected from the $1200 replacement but for $650. Good news for me, it'll get me back into the Sony system (only using rx1r lately and Canon)

I have my Touit waiting for a good hi-res body, only problem there is that benefit to super fast autofocus won't be as noticeable on the Touit.

I heard one say its too many reasons to get into again, but what features are missing? They put the metal body, mode dial, NFC, WIFI...24.3... to me they mixed the NEX 7 and NEX 6 models with A7 and got the A6000. What is the NEX 7 fans missing on this? Tri Nav? ehh, I barely used the second dial, thats why I prefer a mode dial there anyway.

Only thing we're waiting for is actual high ISO samples and performance of everything. To me this was a surprisingly good move for Sony. Or maybe they should've called it A7000 and charged a few hundred more..

What I'm missing with the A6000 is the better EVF, touchscreen and Tri-Navi control. And a better sensor.

Not sure why you would assume the sensor from 2011 to be better, but of course you would also be missing paying another $650. for tri navi and additional dots in the EVF while giving up quite a bit of improvements that a6000 brings.

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parallaxproblem
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Re: re: the APS-C has one very important, distinct advantage over FF...
In reply to jpr2, 10 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

Yes, I also think the camera will be popular

However I hope they let us use the new PDAF with A-mount lenses via an existing or new adaptor, and release a new APS-C lens roadmap with some lenses which will utilise this technology at affordable prices, otherwise it will rather seem like a 'last hurrah' for current NEX customers

Also - as a digression, there is a standing question of AF's accuracy - at 11 fps I don't see much space left for a CDAF performing its usual routine of tiny-weeny steps, vacillating around the critical focus position between each consecutive frame - simple there is no enough time for CDAF to do so.

Which means, the speed advantage must be mostly due to the fast CPU (Bionz X), and a very reliable predictive algorithms = quite accurately telling the lens each time where to go in just one very quick, single sweep. A decades-old, well proven, PDAF-classic trick !! Minimizing potential problems due to latency lags, and mass hysteresis.

.

In other words, the predictive artificial intelligence - esp. for very fast action shooting & tracking, must rely much more on PDAF-part than on CDAF, thus the hybrid-AF solution as known from N6/5R is much less hybrid in a6k than we're accustomed to think given the past experiences,

jpr2

The aditional CPU capabilities of the new camera will certainly play a part in any AF improvements, but maybe there are also some changes on the new sensor which make things better?

We are now in the second/third generation of this technology (16MP APS-C and 24MP FF sensors with OSPDAF) so there must have been some lessons learnt from the previous efforts (and the 'competition' vis-a-vis Nikon 1) which have been fed back into this latest design!

if you remember my list of practical questions concerning the use of a6k the topmost item there was about the LIST (yes, yet another list, but whereas a road map of future lenses seems to be a big, big hurdle for Sony, to compile such a list shouldn't be), an official LIST of all lenses in E-mount which will benefit from the new, supposedly speedy AF on a6k (including also all such FE lenses)

jpr2

Yes, that is a big question:  the new PDAF performance looks very interesting, but we need to know what lenses it is relevant to!

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rayman 2
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to blue_skies, 10 months ago

blue_skies wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-trusted-sources-no-a7000-aps-c-e-mount-coming-in-2014-main-focus-on-fe-from-now-on/

So we lost Mic input and AF/MF-lock controls?

This can't be real, can it?

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

The a6000 has mic imput !

It has a better mic imput the the nex 7 you just have to ad it to the hotshoe !

Peter

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Alohaman
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to blue_skies, 10 months ago

Good! Gives me more time to enjoy my old NEX-7 and save up for the 2015 version of the A7000.

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jpr2
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re: the APS-C has one very important, distinct advantage over FF...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 10 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

Yes, I also think the camera will be popular

However I hope they let us use the new PDAF with A-mount lenses via an existing or new adaptor, and release a new APS-C lens roadmap with some lenses which will utilise this technology at affordable prices, otherwise it will rather seem like a 'last hurrah' for current NEX customers

Also - as a digression, there is a standing question of AF's accuracy - at 11 fps I don't see much space left for a CDAF performing its usual routine of tiny-weeny steps, vacillating around the critical focus position between each consecutive frame - simple there is no enough time for CDAF to do so.

Which means, the speed advantage must be mostly due to the fast CPU (Bionz X), and a very reliable predictive algorithms = quite accurately telling the lens each time where to go in just one very quick, single sweep. A decades-old, well proven, PDAF-classic trick !! Minimizing potential problems due to latency lags, and mass hysteresis.

.

In other words, the predictive artificial intelligence - esp. for very fast action shooting & tracking, must rely much more on PDAF-part than on CDAF, thus the hybrid-AF solution as known from N6/5R is much less hybrid in a6k than we're accustomed to think given the past experiences,

jpr2

The aditional CPU capabilities of the new camera will certainly play a part in any AF improvements, but maybe there are also some changes on the new sensor which make things better?

We are now in the second/third generation of this technology (16MP APS-C and 24MP FF sensors with OSPDAF) so there must have been some lessons learnt from the previous efforts (and the 'competition' vis-a-vis Nikon 1) which have been fed back into this latest design!

if you remember my list of practical questions concerning the use of a6k the topmost item there was about the LIST (yes, yet another list, but whereas a road map of future lenses seems to be a big, big hurdle for Sony, to compile such a list shouldn't be), an official LIST of all lenses in E-mount which will benefit from the new, supposedly speedy AF on a6k (including also all such FE lenses)

jpr2

Yes, that is a big question: the new PDAF performance looks very interesting, but we need to know what lenses it is relevant to!

found the list, BUT... it is an old one (no a6k on it yet) - so we don't know much from it about compatibility, and even less about the actual speed ADVANTAGES. Which is pretty strange as they should be the most interested party to keep it most recent - if only for PR purposes.

Also, already I've a problem to keep with the naming scheme, so had a bit of puzzlement trying to remember what the heck might be the ILCE-7???

jpr2

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Euell
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Re: A6000 versus the NEX 7
In reply to Waltom, 10 months ago

Waltom wrote:

Section10 wrote:

What am I missing?

I've been waiting for the NEX 7 replacement but with this announcement, save the name 6000, this is just about everything I expected from the $1200 replacement but for $650. Good news for me, it'll get me back into the Sony system (only using rx1r lately and Canon)

I have my Touit waiting for a good hi-res body, only problem there is that benefit to super fast autofocus won't be as noticeable on the Touit.

I heard one say its too many reasons to get into again, but what features are missing? They put the metal body, mode dial, NFC, WIFI...24.3... to me they mixed the NEX 7 and NEX 6 models with A7 and got the A6000. What is the NEX 7 fans missing on this? Tri Nav? ehh, I barely used the second dial, thats why I prefer a mode dial there anyway.

Only thing we're waiting for is actual high ISO samples and performance of everything. To me this was a surprisingly good move for Sony. Or maybe they should've called it A7000 and charged a few hundred more..

What I'm missing with the A6000 is the better EVF, touchscreen and Tri-Navi control. And a better sensor.

But, the sensor is better.

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parallaxproblem
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Re: re: the APS-C has one very important, distinct advantage over FF...
In reply to jpr2, 10 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

found the list, BUT... it is an old one (no a6k on it yet) - so we don't know much from it about compatibility, and even less about the actual speed ADVANTAGES. Which is pretty strange as they should be the most interested party to keep it most recent - if only for PR purposes.

Also, already I've a problem to keep with the naming scheme, so had a bit of puzzlement trying to remember what the heck might be the ILCE-7???

jpr2

ILCE is the replacement name for 'NEX': http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3605610

ILCE-7 is the A7

Interesting that on your list the (APS-C) 18-105G only provides 'Fast-Hybrid AF' with the A7, and not with the NEX-5R/T or NEX-6!!!!

Something for potential owners of this lens to consider...

Also that the FE 35 and 55 lenses do not seem to make use of the 'Fast-Hybrid AF' on the NEX cameras, either... seems like a bit of a mess!

I hope it gets cleaned-up for the A6000!

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Euell
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Re: uh oh, no A7000...?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 10 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-trusted-sources-no-a7000-aps-c-e-mount-coming-in-2014-main-focus-on-fe-from-now-on/

So we lost Mic input and AF/MF-lock controls?

This can't be real, can it?

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

As real as SAR's predictions and opinions can be.

Sony isn't about to leave a big expanse of market that has been extremely successful occupied by NEX-6 and NEX-7. There will be an a7000 although with two announcements in a matter of weeks, I would expect Sony to pull back a little before making another. In fact, a6000 doesn't get to market until about end of March or early April.

The prediction about a focus on FE isn't far fetched, it is common sense. The APSc line is fairly mature and FF has only two models. If the AF system in a6000 works as advertised, and under a variety of conditions, the possibility of an Alpha 9 (aka a9) increases, above a7r.

Sure, there is a chance of lesser model under a7 as well but it will have to be stripped of features and I doubt that will be Sony's focus at this time. May be even EVFless or a more basic EVF, if not optional.

From a marketing standpoint providing the A6000 with AF that is far superior to that in the A7 and A7r full frame cameras strongly suggests successors are coming soon in the full frame line. Planned obsolescence has always been with us in digital cameras, but Sony has refined planned obsolescence to a fine art.

As far as the thoughts of some here that there will be a NEX 7 upgrade to full frame, what sense does that make? Sony already has full frame lines. The more interesting question is what technological improvements could be added above and beyond the A6000 that would inspire purchase of a NEX 7 successor. I have my doubts that adding megapixels is likely above 24 meg for an APSC sensor due to noise considerations. Touchscreen? Only exciting for a few. Weatherproofing? Worthy, but not as useful as many think. IBIS? Probably not in the same size body that already puts OSS in many proprietary lenses. The list could go on and on, but Sony will really have to put their thinking caps on if they are going to come up with an A7000 that will have many advantages over the A6000, such that it will sell like hotcakes.

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