dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
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In reply to Erik Magnuson, 6 months ago

Erik Magnuson wrote:

mrkr wrote:

the effects of the close proximity between battery and sensor by implementing RAWs as '11 + 7-bit lossy compression scheme: 11-bit range with 7-bit delta values from 14-bit pipeline (8 bits per pixel in effect)'.

Huh? Since this compression impacts sharp tonal transitions, it's not something that would matter for electrical noise which is typically low level banding or something like thermal noise.

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jennyrae
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Re: External signal interference
In reply to mrkr, 6 months ago

very good point and possibility.  also I think it is useless to even out dimension of camera at back for no reason than hollow space. was thinking of making screen articulate but I think it will add more complexity and electronic component to camera given location of screen directly at back of sensor.  it is nice option but we will see.

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mmr
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to axlotl, 6 months ago

I hold my dp2m by using the strap to wrap around my wrist, and then hold the camera when I take a shot and let it dangle otherwise.  What happens if you use a strap?

Here's an example:

and:

It seemed to me, when I saw the design, that the use of the strap in this way would make the camera design feasible.  Is that something you could try?

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: How do you know that?
In reply to mrkr, 6 months ago

mrkr wrote:

Erik Magnuson wrote:

mrkr wrote:

the effects of the close proximity between battery and sensor by implementing RAWs as '11 + 7-bit lossy compression scheme: 11-bit range with 7-bit delta values from 14-bit pipeline (8 bits per pixel in effect)'.

Huh? Since this compression impacts sharp tonal transitions, it's not something that would matter for electrical noise which is typically low level banding or something like thermal noise.

Logic.  What does that noise look like?  What types of artifacts result from that compression?  How would the two combine?  Think about it for a little.

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Prime85
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to axlotl, 6 months ago

That is dedication!  Well done!

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HBowman
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to Erik Magnuson, 6 months ago

Erik Magnuson wrote:

HBowman wrote:

It is wide because the battery is bigger and to minimize electromagnetic interferences with the sensor, which is very sensible to electromagnetism.

Why is this sensor more sensitive than any other active-pixel CMOS sensor?

Shielding very efficiently DP sensors, this one or the old ones, require some big amount of material.

So how does Sony do it in the RX1 with a much larger sensor but still compact body?

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Erik

With the foveon chip, who need more power than bayer to work because there is 3 layers to read, even a high photon flux can be a problem. Electrons and magnetic flux are a problem. The DPM series do not have more powerful batteries because it would have impacted the IQ in a large margin. Low power >> low emission.

Shielding a camera is an additional in the process. If you want to keep price as cool as possible you need compromises. A camera is an equilibrium. design >> internal.

On the Merrill series, most of the banding can be interpreted as a frequency. This frequency can have 3 sources, the screen, the processor and the batteries.

My wild guess is that the battery AND the True III proc are far away from the sensor.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to axlotl, 6 months ago

That's a pretty impressive job of a mockup.  To me it doesn't look hard to hold from your photo... but I await holding one in person to see.  I think for instance using the rear D-Pad is something you'd be doing with two hands anyway, and it seems like the design is swept back to make the wheels easier to access.

The camera is wide I think for a few reasons:

1) A battery that large would have made the current DP-M body thicker.

2) Keeps electronics farther from sensor.

3) Better dissipation of heat.

4) Overall design can be much thinner.

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Mike Gerstner
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Another possibility
In reply to axlotl, 6 months ago

hold it like you would a dslr....

the right hand still looks awkward at best, but holding it with your left hand under the lens might make it a little more comfortable. (might take a while for the image to load).

It does seem like it would have been better if the battery/shutter section would have projected forward instead of to the rear.

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to HBowman, 6 months ago

HBowman wrote:

With the foveon chip, who need more power than bayer to work because there is 3 layers to read, even a high photon flux can be a problem.

Perhaps they need a photon flux capacitor to modulate the noise. Surely these have shrunk enough since 1985 to fit

Electrons and magnetic flux are a problem. The DPM series do not have more powerful batteries because it would have impacted the IQ in a large margin. Low power >> low emission.

And here I thought they had lower capacity batteries to keep the size/weight down.  Batteries are rated in watt-amp-hours for a given voltage.  You can have larger batteries and just draw the same power for longer instead of drawing more power for the same amount of time.

On the Merrill series, most of the banding can be interpreted as a frequency. This frequency can have 3 sources, the screen, the processor and the batteries.

This is the first I've heard of electronic noise from Lithium Ion batteries.  Now some chargers have noisy circuits ....

My wild guess is that the battery AND the True III proc are far away from the sensor.

So these are all wild guesses?

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Rudi
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to HBowman, 6 months ago

How can the battery produce noise ? It is pretty much a very large capacitor. What could produce a lot of noise is the power supply which is fed by the battery and has to produce all the necessary voltages for the electronic circuits of the camera and for the display. Might be they needed the extra space to move the power supply electronics further away from the sensor and the image processor to avoid crosstalk and interference from some coils or transformers the need in the power supply.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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From this video it looks easier to hold than described...
In reply to axlotl, 6 months ago

Here's a video someone posted from CP+ (the post since mysteriously deleted, swear I did not do it!):

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wOLfIJgSjRk

In the video, it doesn't look too hard to hold - and the person holding it is able to access all of the controls fairly well.  The swept-back handle seems to match the shape of the hand holding it pretty well also.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to Halldor Eiriksson, 6 months ago

Halldor Eiriksson wrote:

Shouldn't there be a left handed version of this camera?

That was my first thought also...

But then looking at every other camera design, they all are pretty one sided affairs.  The Quattro shape just doesn't make any efforts to hide how right-centric it is.

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, 6 months ago

1) A battery that large would have made the current DP-M body thicker.

Including lens and grip the dp2 Quattro is 22mm thicker than the DP2M.

Relocating the processing electronics (noise or heat) from between LCD and sensor is about the only reason that makes much sense for the thin but wide body.

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What a load of tosh
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, 6 months ago

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Here's a video someone posted from CP+ (the post since mysteriously deleted, swear I did not do it!):

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wOLfIJgSjRk

In the video, it doesn't look too hard to hold - and the person holding it is able to access all of the controls fairly well. The swept-back handle seems to match the shape of the hand holding it pretty well also.

all these discussions about ergonomics. With the DP Merrills there were complaints that the body doesn't have a proper grip and was too slippery to hold. Now we have a proper grip and the gripes continue - and now it's too much of a grip or the wrong form and so on and so on.

Everybody has to decide for themselves - and mock-ups don't help, in my opinion.

Just wait till you can hold the darn thing in your own hands und use it and play around with it and then decide.

From the video it looks very good to me, personally.

PS:

Just a reminder: hands come in all shapes and some people can't even handle a screwdriver properly.

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Rudi
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Re: Another possibility
In reply to Mike Gerstner, 6 months ago

Mike Gerstner wrote:

hold it like you would a dslr....

...

It does seem like it would have been better if the battery/shutter section would have projected forward instead of to the rear.

Without a OVF I think it is better to hold like shown in Your Picture, for You need to watch what´s going on on the display.

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Rudi
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Re: What a load of tosh
In reply to mrkr, 6 months ago

mrkr wrote:

...

PS:

Just a reminder: hands come in all shapes and some people can't even handle a screwdriver properly.

... and with all kinds of brains to control them

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Very good point
In reply to Rudi, 6 months ago

Rudi wrote:

mrkr wrote:

...

PS:

Just a reminder: hands come in all shapes and some people can't even handle a screwdriver properly.

... and with all kinds of brains to control them

Cheers

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to Erik Magnuson, 6 months ago

Erik Magnuson wrote:

1) A battery that large would have made the current DP-M body thicker.

Including lens and grip the dp2 Quattro is 22mm thicker than the DP2M.

That doesn't mean anything though.  Look at the current DP-M design, no way that new battery is going in that same body without the body getting thicker and the thing being quite a chunk.  Yes the overall design of the new body is in theory thicker, but that's only because of all the angles and the longer lens housing.  In reality the actual body of the new camera is thinner.

Personally I think the new body is much nicer than if they had just blown out the back of the current DP camera, which would have been the lazy design choice.

Relocating the processing electronics (noise or heat) from between LCD and sensor is about the only reason that makes much sense for the thin but wide body.

I do think that's the main reason, but they also needed somewhere to put a fairly large battery and there's no room in the old body.

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, 6 months ago

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

That doesn't mean anything though. Look at the current DP-M design, no way that new battery is going in that same body without the body getting thicker and the thing being quite a chunk.

Your turn it sideways (or diagonal) and add a grip bulge in the front like every other camera.  Or keep the small battery as default but add support for a larger or dual-battery grip.

Yes the overall design of the new body is in theory thicker, but that's only because of all the angles and the longer lens housing. In reality the actual body of the new camera is thinner.

If it does not fit in smaller bags or pockets, it's not practically thinner.

Personally I think the new body is much nicer than if they had just blown out the back of the current DP camera, which would have been the lazy design choice.

Perhaps.  Would you like to bet that the next generation DP Cinco-de-Mayo totally abandons this design?

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: dp2 Quattro ergonomic study using a mockup
In reply to Erik Magnuson, 6 months ago

Erik Magnuson wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

That doesn't mean anything though. Look at the current DP-M design, no way that new battery is going in that same body without the body getting thicker and the thing being quite a chunk.

Your turn it sideways (or diagonal) and add a grip bulge in the front like every other camera. Or keep the small battery as default but add support for a larger or dual-battery grip.

Fair enough, although personally I've always thought that bulge was pretty ugly.  There's a reason why more compact cameras got rid of it.

Yes the overall design of the new body is in theory thicker, but that's only because of all the angles and the longer lens housing. In reality the actual body of the new camera is thinner.

If it does not fit in smaller bags or pockets, it's not practically thinner.

True for carrying, it's more of a style thing.  Thin is in.  Visually the body looks very thin, though you're right that for actual use the overall width is larger.

Personally I think the new body is much nicer than if they had just blown out the back of the current DP camera, which would have been the lazy design choice.

Perhaps. Would you like to bet that the next generation DP Cinco-de-Mayo totally abandons this design?

Not much, this design has a lot of benefits.  I'm also pretty sure Sigma is not going to put a fifth sensor in the top layer.

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