G1X MII or RX100II?

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
phazelag
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to PaulRivers, 5 months ago

PaulRivers wrote:

phazelag wrote:

...and I really do like the concept of the G1X M2, but the fact that its only 12.8 mega pixels in my opinion really lowers its potential... know the megapixel police will be cursing me, but I think 14-16 would have been excellent. I have my Ricoh GR at 16 and it is nice to be able to crop to zoom. This where I think many buyers looking for high quality in their pocket will be more likely to choose the Sony RX100 or RX100II.

I don't think you understand how megapixels work. If there was a way to do it, I'd bet you $100 that the G1X M2 will consistently the same or better real, actual details and resolution than the Sony.

On the other reasons, like size, weight, etc - well those are good reasons. But 12.8 megapixels on a larger sensor vs 20mp on a smaller sensor? The 12.8 is going to have more details.

Even on full frame cameras with quality glass, improving the megapixel count above 12 or so has only improved real detail in the picture by a very, very tiny amount. But that's with huge sensors.

The reason your Ricoh has more croppability is because it uses a dslr-sized sensor and good glad. The megapixel count is not why. Increasing megapixels is a game of diminishing returns when it comes to real detail increase, and those returns have been small since 6mp and very tiny since 12mp.

That makes sense.  The more I think about this camera the more it appeals to me.

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Tonkotsu Ramen
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to phazelag, 5 months ago

I actually just got rid of my RX100II, lots of small issues that started to affect my usage of the camera. I'll list them and maybe they can help you with your decision. I also have a Canon S90 that I used side by side with the RX100M2.

-Image stabilization on the wide end (28mm) of the RX100M2 is very poor, and the camera defaults to 1/30 or slower when there is low lighting, which resulted in many many many blurry pictures. You can use shutter mode, but that's incredibly limiting for such a pricey camera. I end up with less blurry photos from my S90.

-Screen tits, but not 180 degrees like the G1X Mark II.

-Operation is fast, but because the shutter works so fast, it actually activates faster than the camera can auto focus, which means more blurry photos. So I developed the habit of pressing the shutter 2x, which is kind of silly really.

-F1.8 is only avail on the wide end.

-Lens is very soft when using F1.8 on the wide end, so soft that I think there may have been a malfunction with my copy. Going to F2.8 solves the problem, but its another hassle you need to deal with.

-Lots of rough edges all over the camera, so it's not as easy to slip in a pocket like the S90

-Camera without the grip is awkward to hold

-LCD is rigid and difficult to move around

-Apps are laggy

-Close up macro performance is mediocre despite the 5 cm MFD. It's easier on my canon

-Colors are "sony cold" vs "canon saturated"

-No touch screen

-No auto ISO in M

-shutter button feedback stinks

Once the G1X Mark II was announced, I knew it was the camera for me.

Heck, it saved me from blowing $1,099 on a zeiss lens for my NEX (and I sold the NEX also).

It will provide similar results as my NEX for less than 1/2 of the price.

Now i'm just waiting to see it in person, because the G1X's weight may be a problem (same weight as my Sony A57 without a lens on.....)

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phazelag
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to technic, 5 months ago

technic wrote:

Catalin Stavaru wrote:

If Canon will ever release a small APS-C camera with a fixed 28mm F2 lens (like the Nikon Coolpix A) I am sure that even without zoom it will take a lot of sales from the RX100.

Why would such a camera from Canon be much more attractive than Ricoh GR and Coolpix A? Maybe Canon can provide slightly smaller size (assuming f/2.8 28mm, not f/2), better out-of-camera jpeg and noisier sensor Ultimately the choice is between a high quality prime and a compromised zoom, and for some maybe about good ergonomics or lots of features.

People who don't like the RX100 concept already have two compact APS-C WA prime cameras to chose from.

I love my Ricoh GR.  If I could only one camera that would be it, but I really liked my Olympus XZ1 for macros and even portraits.  The Canon is similar with a larger sensor and more useful lens range, but still compact and having a camera like that is like owning a swiss army knife for someone who will use the features and I would for sure.

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phazelag
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to Tonkotsu Ramen, 5 months ago

Tonkotsu Ramen wrote:

I actually just got rid of my RX100II, lots of small issues that started to affect my usage of the camera. I'll list them and maybe they can help you with your decision. I also have a Canon S90 that I used side by side with the RX100M2.

-Image stabilization on the wide end (28mm) of the RX100M2 is very poor, and the camera defaults to 1/30 or slower when there is low lighting, which resulted in many many many blurry pictures. You can use shutter mode, but that's incredibly limiting for such a pricey camera. I end up with less blurry photos from my S90.

-Screen tits, but not 180 degrees like the G1X Mark II.

-Operation is fast, but because the shutter works so fast, it actually activates faster than the camera can auto focus, which means more blurry photos. So I developed the habit of pressing the shutter 2x, which is kind of silly really.

-F1.8 is only avail on the wide end.

-Lens is very soft when using F1.8 on the wide end, so soft that I think there may have been a malfunction with my copy. Going to F2.8 solves the problem, but its another hassle you need to deal with.

-Lots of rough edges all over the camera, so it's not as easy to slip in a pocket like the S90

-Camera without the grip is awkward to hold

-LCD is rigid and difficult to move around

-Apps are laggy

-Close up macro performance is mediocre despite the 5 cm MFD. It's easier on my canon

-Colors are "sony cold" vs "canon saturated"

-No touch screen

-No auto ISO in M

-shutter button feedback stinks

Once the G1X Mark II was announced, I knew it was the camera for me.

Heck, it saved me from blowing $1,099 on a zeiss lens for my NEX (and I sold the NEX also).

It will provide similar results as my NEX for less than 1/2 of the price.

Now i'm just waiting to see it in person, because the G1X's weight may be a problem (same weight as my Sony A57 without a lens on.....)

That all good info.

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RedFox88
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photos on phones..
In reply to phazelag, 5 months ago

Well, since most photos are viewed and shared on small phone screens I hardly see how 13 MP is "low resolution" since phone screens are maybe 1 to 2 MP.  So 13 is more than enough!  Step back and contemplate why you need 20 instead of 13 and and "to crop" is not an intelligent answer here.

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Jennyhappy2
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More pixels doesn't mean better IQ
In reply to phazelag, 5 months ago

Big misconception...More pixels doesn't mean better IQ.

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phazelag
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Re: More pixels doesn't mean better IQ
In reply to Jennyhappy2, 5 months ago

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Big misconception...More pixels doesn't mean better IQ.

I am very familiar with Mega Pixels I have bought several cameras with less mega pixels for performance.  I bought the Olympus XZ-1 with only 10MP on a larger compact sensor and the FZ200 with only 12 versus the 16 of similar cameras.

But when camera has a larger sensor and a good lens asking for 14-16 in a sensor this size is not unreasonable.  But I am getting more and more comfy with 13.1 or 12.8  its fine.  But having a little more crop zoom is nice occasionally when the conditions, your lens, or timing didn't allow a perfect set up.

Everyone has done some cropping to frame something after the fact unless they have no one they are accountable to, don't wear a watch, and can stop time.  If this sensor matched the pixel density of the 70D that has their most modern sensor, it could easily accommodate 16MP effective.  16MP on a sensor that size would be fine.

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ohcello
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If you use your cam as your full time videocam like I do, >> RX100 II...
In reply to phazelag, 5 months ago

I have a 5d, but use the RX100 II as my vacation cam and my full time video cam... it takes amazing video with little to no moire.... All the larger chip DSlRs and mirrorless I tried, even the ones with 60p, had moire issues when panning....

The reason I was told is that NEX and DSLR cameras don't scale down a full size image to generate a frame of video, but instead they skip lines. So an NEX-6 with its 16MP sensor is probably only reading every 3rd line to generate 1080p video, and this results in the aliasing of the lines that are close to horizontal in the image, which in turn causes the moire pattern.

In other words, The APS-C sized sensor cannot be read fast enough to read all lines @ 60p. So they cheat by line skipping. FF is even worse.

Here is an example - http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3525116

++++++

Now, I'm not sure how the G1X II will fare with moire, but it's 30p and with my fast moving kids, that's a deal breaker as the G1x II would have to be my full time video cam. From everything I have seen and tried, 30p with fast motion is pretty noticable compared to 60p.

It's a shame as I was really looking forward to switching... I'd *much* rather have 24mm on the long end, and having 120mm with f/3.9 on 1.9x crop!...

But the RX100 video is excellent indoors at f/1.8 @28mm.. with very little noise... and it does Ok outdoors as well at 100mm f/4.9.

+++++++

If I was getting a camera and didn't care about video, I'd switch to the G1X II in a heartbeat.

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Mk7
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Re: Compare size, weight and options...
In reply to rrccad, 5 months ago

rrccad wrote:
if canon can't match the distortion / optics of that 16-50 .. then someone shoot the engineers that worked on the Mark II.

is there a lens in production that has more distortion in that lens that isn't a fisheye?
i doubt you get more than 12Mp out of that lens even on a 24Mp sensor.

Most buyers don't know or care about distortion. Salespeople aren't gonna tell them, either. Customers will just see the 24MP, DSLR sensor and built-in EVF, in a similar-sized package, and buy the Sony.
Or, they'll see that cute, tiny Sony RX100 II with a lusty Carl Zeiss lens and "large 20MP DSLR sensor" (so the salesperson tells them, anyway ),and buy that one, since it easily slips into their pocket or purse (along with the money they save).
Mark II may continue the slow sales despite significant improvements.

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Mk7
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Re: More pixels doesn't mean better IQ
In reply to Jennyhappy2, 5 months ago

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Big misconception...More pixels doesn't mean better IQ.

To a surprisingly large percentage of the camera-buying public, it still does.
20 is a sexier number than 13!
Maybe the next Canon S-series will come to the rescue. It would benefit from a 1" sensor, though.

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Mk7
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Re: Compare size & weight against lens size and brightness
In reply to yatesd, 5 months ago

yatesd wrote:

It is important to compare size & weight against other total packages with similar lens range, brightness, and sensor size.

I see other cameras with similar zoom ranges which are smaller, but not with similar sensor size and brightness.

I see other ILS options with lighter bodies, but not with a combined lens package that is more compact (or cheaper).

Doug

Those were true of the original G1 X but the advantages did not translate into sales. Now Canon has upped the ante. The new product specs are really great, but bulk and price will hurt.

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Mk7
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fair comparison
In reply to Mark B., 5 months ago

Mark B. wrote:

A6000 is an interchangeable lens camera with a much larger sensor. Different class of camera, and not a competitor to the G1X II.

What, are we to compare it only to cameras with 1.5" sensors?
In their review, DPReview compared the G1 X to an APS-C DSLR, an ILC and a "small" sensor compact. Customers did too.

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Jennyhappy2
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II or P8000
In reply to phazelag, 5 months ago

Looks like Nikon may take everyone by surprise with the upcoming 1" sensor P8000.

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tkbslc
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II or P8000
In reply to Jennyhappy2, 5 months ago

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Looks like Nikon may take everyone by surprise with the upcoming 1" sensor P8000.

We will see.  It would be hard for it to beat a f2 lens on a larger sensor, though, unless they go f1.4 or something.

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technic
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II or P8000
In reply to tkbslc, 5 months ago

tkbslc wrote:

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Looks like Nikon may take everyone by surprise with the upcoming 1" sensor P8000.

We will see. It would be hard for it to beat a f2 lens on a larger sensor, though, unless they go f1.4 or something.

When it comes to image quality they can beat the Canon f/2 lens by just having a better sensor, which is likely. For DOF control the difference is very small assuming the Nikon is f/3 at tele. If I had to guess which of the two will have the better lens (regarding corner quality etc.) I would give Nikon better chances. But let's wait for the final specs and reliable reviews before judging

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Mk7
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II or P8000
In reply to technic, 5 months ago

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Looks like Nikon may take everyone by surprise with the upcoming 1" sensor P8000.

We will see. It would be hard for it to beat a f2 lens on a larger sensor, though, unless they go f1.4 or something.

When it comes to image quality they can beat the Canon f/2 lens by just having a better sensor, which is likely. For DOF control the difference is very small assuming the Nikon is f/3 at tele. If I had to guess which of the two will have the better lens (regarding corner quality etc.) I would give Nikon better chances. But let's wait for the final specs and reliable reviews before judging

Agreed. Even with the rumored 2.0-3.0 lens, the only place The Mark II would have an advantage is at the wide end. Canon's half-stop (at best) noise advantage at high ISO would be pretty much wiped out by down-resing the 20MP pics to 13MP.  Canon would have shallower DOF, if that matters much at the 24mm-equiv. end.

At the tele end, the faster lens on the P8000 would virtually balance out the Mark II's larger sensor noise and DOF advantage.

So what your left with is a camera with virtually equal IQ, in a smaller, lighter package.  Same for the next Sony RX.  If they build in an EVF, it becomes hard to make a case for the Canon.

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tkbslc
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II or P8000
In reply to Mk7, 5 months ago

Mk7 wrote:

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Looks like Nikon may take everyone by surprise with the upcoming 1" sensor P8000.

We will see. It would be hard for it to beat a f2 lens on a larger sensor, though, unless they go f1.4 or something.

When it comes to image quality they can beat the Canon f/2 lens by just having a better sensor, which is likely. For DOF control the difference is very small assuming the Nikon is f/3 at tele. If I had to guess which of the two will have the better lens (regarding corner quality etc.) I would give Nikon better chances. But let's wait for the final specs and reliable reviews before judging

Agreed. Even with the rumored 2.0-3.0 lens, the only place The Mark II would have an advantage is at the wide end. Canon's half-stop (at best) noise advantage at high ISO would be pretty much wiped out by down-resing the 20MP pics to 13MP. Canon would have shallower DOF, if that matters much at the 24mm-equiv. end.

At the tele end, the faster lens on the P8000 would virtually balance out the Mark II's larger sensor noise and DOF advantage.

So what your left with is a camera with virtually equal IQ, in a smaller, lighter package. Same for the next Sony RX. If they build in an EVF, it becomes hard to make a case for the Canon.

Fair points.  It will be interesting to see if all the rumored specs are true.   I honestly thought the G1X mk2 was a fake rumor, too!

Honestly, no matter, these are pretty exciting times.   Just a handful of years ago, it seemed the compact had all but died and DSLR was the only game in town.  Now we have a lot of really fantastic options for DSLR-level image quality in all kinds of cameras.

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Mk7
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II or P8000
In reply to tkbslc, 5 months ago

True, great times. I bought my last SLR in 2000 and will never buy another one.

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Mark B.
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Re: fair comparison
In reply to Mk7, 5 months ago

Mk7 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

A6000 is an interchangeable lens camera with a much larger sensor. Different class of camera, and not a competitor to the G1X II.

What, are we to compare it only to cameras with 1.5" sensors?

No, but at least compare it to other large-sensor compacts.  The RX100 II makes sense.

In their review, DPReview compared the G1 X to an APS-C DSLR, an ILC and a "small" sensor compact. Customers did too.

Just as a frame of reference.  Someone that truly wants interchangeable lenses isn't going to be happy stuck with one zoom range; someone that wants something portable probably won't be happy with a DSLR body and the lenses that go with it.

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Jennyhappy2
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II or P8000
In reply to Mk7, 5 months ago

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Looks like Nikon may take everyone by surprise with the upcoming 1" sensor P8000.

We will see. It would be hard for it to beat a f2 lens on a larger sensor, though, unless they go f1.4 or something.

When it comes to image quality they can beat the Canon f/2 lens by just having a better sensor, which is likely. For DOF control the difference is very small assuming the Nikon is f/3 at tele. If I had to guess which of the two will have the better lens (regarding corner quality etc.) I would give Nikon better chances. But let's wait for the final specs and reliable reviews before judging

Agreed. Even with the rumored 2.0-3.0 lens, the only place The Mark II would have an advantage is at the wide end. Canon's half-stop (at best) noise advantage at high ISO would be pretty much wiped out by down-resing the 20MP pics to 13MP.  Canon would have shallower DOF, if that matters much at the 24mm-equiv. end.

At the tele end, the faster lens on the P8000 would virtually balance out the Mark II's larger sensor noise and DOF advantage.

So what your left with is a camera with virtually equal IQ, in a smaller, lighter package.  Same for the next Sony RX.  If they build in an EVF, it becomes hard to make a case for the Canon.

Don't think the P8000 will have EVF. Size will likely be larger and easier to hold than the RX100 due to the faster lens.

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