G1X MII or RX100II?

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BarnET
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to tkbslc, 6 months ago

tkbslc wrote:

technic wrote:

howardroark wrote:

Catalin Stavaru wrote:

phazelag wrote:

I have been moving toward smaller cameras for a while now and I really do like the concept of the G1X M2, but the fact that its only 12.8 mega pixels in my opinion really lowers its potential.

I know the megapixel police will be cursing me, but I think 14-16 would have been excellent. I have my Ricoh GR at 16 and it is nice to be able to crop to zoom. This where I think many buyers looking for high quality in their pocket will be more likely to choose the Sony RX100 or RX100II. Yes I am guessing the G1X will have nicer high ISO photos, but really how much better and how often will that be necessary compared to wanting the details in the 20MP Sony.

Plus the Sony truly does fit in your pocket. I think Canon has done something nice, but they have limited the potential buyers by holding back newer sensor pixel ratios. If this used the 70D sensor technology it could be 15MP and that would be more to work with.

I will wait to see the photos and reviews, but I do feel like canon held back on us.

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The 12.8 megapixels does not lower its potential at all, but instead keeps the pixels big and the APS-C image quality from the smaller than APS-C sensor.

The problem with the G1X II is the size. It's just too big. And the size does not come from the lens only, they just made the body unnecessarily big (maybe indeed to balance out the lens).

You think they made the body larger than it needed to be to balance out the lens? I'm going to bet on a categorical no to that idea. The body has a large sensor, pretty stunningly fast electronics on-board, contains the AF mechanism which must be considerable if reports of AF speed are correct, and it also has a pretty large battery inside. The camera isn't too big, you are too unimpressed with what you get for that size....which is a shame.

Difficult to judge if it could be smaller with these specs. But I'm surprised (comparing with some other cameras) there wasn't even room for an EVF ... I guess that's not so much because there wasn't any space left, but more likely because it allows Canon to extract some extra money from the customers ;-(

Other cameras you are comparing to don't have an F2 zoom designed for a 1.9x crop sensor!

Look how big Samsung's F2 zoom is:

The Samsung is f2.8 at the long end and covers an 1.5 times crop apsc sensor. Which is larger as the 1.6 crop canon or 1.94 crop of the mk2.

Look at the XF 18-55mm f2.8-4 and difference already shrinks a lot. And that's also a larger sensor. All in all canon really out did themselves with the lens. The sensor is dissapointing. Since I was hoping for an cut to size dual pixel af sensor. That would have had more Mp and class leading autofocus.

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technic
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to tkbslc, 6 months ago

tkbslc wrote:

Difficult to judge if it could be smaller with these specs. But I'm surprised (comparing with some other cameras) there wasn't even room for an EVF ... I guess that's not so much because there wasn't any space left, but more likely because it allows Canon to extract some extra money from the customers ;-(

Other cameras you are comparing to don't have an F2 zoom designed for a 1.9x crop sensor!

I know the bright lens is a big part of the weight / volume. But there is a lot of camera body outside the 'lens area' and the II is not much smaller than the I version, despite removing the optical viewfinder. Maybe a top quality internal EVF would be asking to much given the volume, but I really think this is a business decision to enable 'upselling'.

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Jennyhappy2
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Sensor sizes equates to IQ
In reply to ajamils1, 6 months ago

Well stated.  As the camera size increases, so does the sensor size resulting in better IQ. its up to each consumer to decide what's best for them.

ajamils1 wrote:

Tapper123 wrote:

RX100II if you want a truly small pocket camera with very good IQ. Otherwise, might as well get a good ILC.

Some size comparisons to consider:

http://j.mp/Me0dgy (G1XII vs Canon S120 & RX100II)

http://j.mp/MOk0mO (G1XII vs Sony A6000 & Olympus EM10)

Also note G1XII is 533 grams; over twice the weight of most pocket cameras.

IMO if you're looking something as big, heavy and costly as G1XII, you might as well look at CSC's like Sony NEX/A6000, Olympus EM(5 or 10) and Fuji X which will give you much more versatility and options, as well as bigger sensors (except for M43).

All these options are great but as soon as you add a lens to these ILCs, they become larger than G1x II and most likely with worst lens. The only comparison that you can do is on price, other than that its like comparing apples to oranges or horses to donkeys

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technic
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Re: Sensor sizes equates to IQ
In reply to Jennyhappy2, 6 months ago

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

Well stated. As the camera size increases, so does the sensor size resulting in better IQ. its up to each consumer to decide what's best for them.

Not really, because at some point the current trend of shrinking the lenses to make a 'compact' camera will have too much negative impact. IQ is more than just noise performance or center resolution (although people who stick to DXO gospel may think otherwise ...).

Several of the recent cameras that shoehorn a relatively big sensor and/or relatively bright lens into a small camera clearly show that there is no free lunch when it comes to optics. It will be interesting to see if the Canon lens designers have found a better compromise between specs and size than e.g. on the RX100. For a small and relatively cheap camera like Canon S110 some corner softness is acceptable. But in a camera like G1X II that is 4x more expensive and almost 3x the weight and volume I expect much better IQ including good corner quality (I'm not buying a bigger camera just because it has great High ISO performance).

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yatesd
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Re: Compare size & weight against lens size and brightness
In reply to Tapper123, 6 months ago

It is important to compare size & weight against other total packages with similar lens range, brightness, and sensor size.

I see other cameras with similar zoom ranges which are smaller, but not with similar sensor size and brightness.

I see other ILS options with lighter bodies, but not with a combined lens package that is more compact (or cheaper).

I am very tempted by this product. Can the Canon G1X MII command off camera flash with the pop up?

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Doug

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jonrobertp
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RX100-3 will be better. June.
In reply to yatesd, 6 months ago

yatesd wrote:

It is important to compare size & weight against other total packages with similar lens range, brightness, and sensor size.

I see other cameras with similar zoom ranges which are smaller, but not with similar sensor size and brightness.

I see other ILS options with lighter bodies, but not with a combined lens package that is more compact (or cheaper).

I am very tempted by this product. Can the Canon G1X MII command off camera flash with the pop up?

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Doug

June ... Expecting a new lens for the RX.  Yay !

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Jennyhappy2
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Re: RX100-3 will be better. June.
In reply to jonrobertp, 6 months ago

yatesd wrote:

It is important to compare size & weight against other total packages with similar lens range, brightness, and sensor size.

I see other cameras with similar zoom ranges which are smaller, but not with similar sensor size and brightness.

I see other ILS options with lighter bodies, but not with a combined lens package that is more compact (or cheaper).

I am very tempted by this product. Can the Canon G1X MII command off camera flash with the pop up?

-- hide signature --

Doug

June ... Expecting a new lens for the RX.  Yay !

Given the G1X II, Sony is now forced to make more significant improvements than what they did on the I to II. Keep in mind this is always the case with ever new camera. Personally I prefer the size of the G1X II, the sensor size, the lower MPs, and the lens range over the RX100.

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Jennyhappy2
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No more G series?
In reply to panamforeman, 6 months ago

I'm wondering if Canon plans to continue with the G-series? Will there be a G17 and beyond?

With the exception of the G1X II being 1 inch thicker, they are almost identical in size, the G16 actually being taller. I would assume the extra thickness of the G1X II is due to the lens and sensor, and with my limited knowledge of it, a jacked-up AF. (although I had no problem with the G1X AF)

I will almost certainly buy the G1X II. But if I do, why then would I buy a G17?........unless they are going to, say, enlarge the sensor in the G17 to 1 inch etc. (ala Sony RX100 II), with all the appropriate resultant changes that would cause? And will they be able to keep the cost at $499? In today's economic climate, I doubt it!

I'm no prophet, but looking at it logically, except for retail cost, what is the incentive for Canon to continue the G series? Certainly the G1X II would bite into G series sales if the G1X II is a huge hit, and I think it will be! (golly, I'm getting tired of typing "G1X II every time! Can't we come up with a short-hand name?)

Any prognostications?

You raise a very good point as the G1X II is far superior to the G16...look for its price to drop after the G1X II is released.

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meland
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to technic, 6 months ago

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Difficult to judge if it could be smaller with these specs. But I'm surprised (comparing with some other cameras) there wasn't even room for an EVF ... I guess that's not so much because there wasn't any space left, but more likely because it allows Canon to extract some extra money from the customers ;-(

Other cameras you are comparing to don't have an F2 zoom designed for a 1.9x crop sensor!

I know the bright lens is a big part of the weight / volume. But there is a lot of camera body outside the 'lens area' and the II is not much smaller than the I version, despite removing the optical viewfinder. Maybe a top quality internal EVF would be asking to much given the volume, but I really think this is a business decision to enable 'upselling'.

Upselling to what?

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tkbslc
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to technic, 6 months ago

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Difficult to judge if it could be smaller with these specs. But I'm surprised (comparing with some other cameras) there wasn't even room for an EVF ... I guess that's not so much because there wasn't any space left, but more likely because it allows Canon to extract some extra money from the customers ;-(

Other cameras you are comparing to don't have an F2 zoom designed for a 1.9x crop sensor!

I know the bright lens is a big part of the weight / volume. But there is a lot of camera body outside the 'lens area' and the II is not much smaller than the I version, despite removing the optical viewfinder. Maybe a top quality internal EVF would be asking to much given the volume, but I really think this is a business decision to enable 'upselling'.

Another way to look at it may be that it is a way to keep the price of the camera down and the relative few that really want to have the VF can pay extra for it.   I really doubt they could add a good viewfinder and still hit the same price target.

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technic
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to meland, 6 months ago

meland wrote:

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Difficult to judge if it could be smaller with these specs. But I'm surprised (comparing with some other cameras) there wasn't even room for an EVF ... I guess that's not so much because there wasn't any space left, but more likely because it allows Canon to extract some extra money from the customers ;-(

Other cameras you are comparing to don't have an F2 zoom designed for a 1.9x crop sensor!

I know the bright lens is a big part of the weight / volume. But there is a lot of camera body outside the 'lens area' and the II is not much smaller than the I version, despite removing the optical viewfinder. Maybe a top quality internal EVF would be asking to much given the volume, but I really think this is a business decision to enable 'upselling'.

Upselling to what?

selling G1X II owners a very expensive external EVF.

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technic
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to tkbslc, 6 months ago

tkbslc wrote:

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Difficult to judge if it could be smaller with these specs. But I'm surprised (comparing with some other cameras) there wasn't even room for an EVF ... I guess that's not so much because there wasn't any space left, but more likely because it allows Canon to extract some extra money from the customers ;-(

Other cameras you are comparing to don't have an F2 zoom designed for a 1.9x crop sensor!

I know the bright lens is a big part of the weight / volume. But there is a lot of camera body outside the 'lens area' and the II is not much smaller than the I version, despite removing the optical viewfinder. Maybe a top quality internal EVF would be asking to much given the volume, but I really think this is a business decision to enable 'upselling'.

Another way to look at it may be that it is a way to keep the price of the camera down and the relative few that really want to have the VF can pay extra for it. I really doubt they could add a good viewfinder and still hit the same price target.

agree that could be a factor; although it is difficult to see what a 'realistic' sales price is for such a target, most cameras are sold at several times the real production cost. You can pay for development with high margins or with high sales numbers (because of a more compelling product).

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Tonkotsu Ramen
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to technic, 6 months ago

Yes well, canon is still a business. They're in it to make money as well.

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technic
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to Tonkotsu Ramen, 6 months ago

Tonkotsu Ramen wrote:

Yes well, canon is still a business. They're in it to make money as well.

yes, so many product feature/quality decisions are based on making money, not so much on what is technically possible.

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meland
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to technic, 6 months ago

technic wrote:

meland wrote:

technic wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Difficult to judge if it could be smaller with these specs. But I'm surprised (comparing with some other cameras) there wasn't even room for an EVF ... I guess that's not so much because there wasn't any space left, but more likely because it allows Canon to extract some extra money from the customers ;-(

Other cameras you are comparing to don't have an F2 zoom designed for a 1.9x crop sensor!

I know the bright lens is a big part of the weight / volume. But there is a lot of camera body outside the 'lens area' and the II is not much smaller than the I version, despite removing the optical viewfinder. Maybe a top quality internal EVF would be asking to much given the volume, but I really think this is a business decision to enable 'upselling'.

Upselling to what?

selling G1X II owners a very expensive external EVF.

Oh, right.  But that would only work as a business model if the sales of the basic G1X II were sufficient to get a percentage to purchase the additional EVF.  If having to purchase additional EVF, rather than one built in actually deters purchasers from buying the camera at all then as a decision the upselling strategy would fail miserably.

No I think Canon simply listened to all of you who said "the OVF is crap, get rid of it."  And so they did.

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Yes, definitely a G series as well as a G1 X series.
In reply to Jennyhappy2, 6 months ago

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

I'm wondering if Canon plans to continue with the G-series? Will there be a G17 and beyond?

With the exception of the G1X II being 1 inch thicker, they are almost identical in size, the G16 actually being taller. I would assume the extra thickness of the G1X II is due to the lens and sensor, and with my limited knowledge of it, a jacked-up AF. (although I had no problem with the G1X AF)

I will almost certainly buy the G1X II. But if I do, why then would I buy a G17?........unless they are going to, say, enlarge the sensor in the G17 to 1 inch etc. (ala Sony RX100 II), with all the appropriate resultant changes that would cause? And will they be able to keep the cost at $499? In today's economic climate, I doubt it!

I'm no prophet, but looking at it logically, except for retail cost, what is the incentive for Canon to continue the G series? Certainly the G1X II would bite into G series sales if the G1X II is a huge hit, and I think it will be! (golly, I'm getting tired of typing "G1X II every time! Can't we come up with a short-hand name?)

Any prognostications?

You raise a very good point as the G1X II is far superior to the G16...look for its price to drop after the G1X II is released.

As was the case with the G1 X, the two camera types are only tenuously related.  The G1 X was never meant to replace the regular G series and, if you'll notice, it did not.  The G1 X II will also not supplant the G series camera as they are both aimed at very different markets.  The price alone should make that clear.

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meland
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to technic, 6 months ago

technic wrote:

Tonkotsu Ramen wrote:

Yes well, canon is still a business. They're in it to make money as well.

yes, so many product feature/quality decisions are based on making money, not so much on what is technically possible.

Of course.  You might like them to be a charity but unfortunately they wouldn't remain in business very long if they were.  And even if they made the very best products technically possible there is absolutely no guarantee that those products, at the price they would probably have to be sold for, would sell.  All manufacturing for the consumer is a compromise even if some here think that makes manufacturers dirty, money grabbing bastards.

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You actually think Canon held back? They've spoiled you.
In reply to phazelag, 6 months ago

phazelag wrote:

I have been moving toward smaller cameras for a while now and I really do like the concept of the G1X M2, but the fact that its only 12.8 mega pixels in my opinion really lowers its potential.

I know the megapixel police will be cursing me, but I think 14-16 would have been excellent.  I have my Ricoh GR at 16 and it is nice to be able to crop to zoom.  This where I think many buyers looking for high quality in their pocket will be more likely to choose the Sony RX100 or RX100II.  Yes I am guessing the G1X will have nicer high ISO photos, but really how much better and how often will that be necessary compared to wanting the details in the 20MP Sony.

Plus the Sony truly does fit in your pocket.  I think Canon has done something nice, but they have limited the potential buyers by holding back newer sensor pixel ratios.  If this used the 70D sensor technology it could be 15MP and that would be more to work with.

I will wait to see the photos and reviews, but I do feel like canon held back on us.

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I think we got a similar sensor to one that was first introduced 2 years ago, but very likely with manufacturing improvements that will increase image quality (DR, noise, etc.).  Even if those improvements are marginal, what Canon did not hold back on was a killer (I mean really groundbreaking) new lens.  As long as it produces the same type of detail, color, etc. as the G1 X lens the new G1 X II lens will be enough to justify the price of the camera all by itself.  The greatly improved macro ability will also shut up the naysayers, or at least a great many of them.

Prepare to be stunned by all the ways Canon decidedly did not hold back.

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technic
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Re: RX100-3 will be better. June.
In reply to Jennyhappy2, 6 months ago

Jennyhappy2 wrote:

June ... Expecting a new lens for the RX. Yay !

Given the G1X II, Sony is now forced to make more significant improvements than what they did on the I to II. Keep in mind this is always the case with ever new camera. Personally I prefer the size of the G1X II, the sensor size, the lower MPs, and the lens range over the RX100.

If Sony improves the RX100II lens by giving it sharper corners and 24-100 (or 120) mm equiv. zoom range in a slightly bigger package, I would definitely prefer the RX100-3. An optically less compromised lens will be bigger, but so be it. Somewhere between RX100 and RX10 there could be an attractive compromise.

For me the RX100 1" sensor is good enough for a 'walkaround camera', for extreme low light etc. there are other cameras. Canon has some advantages in jpeg output quality, ergonomics, special features like flash sync etc. but for me those are not a major factors.

Yes, competition is good

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Tonkotsu Ramen
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Re: G1X MII or RX100II?
In reply to technic, 6 months ago

Tonkotsu Ramen wrote:

Yes well, canon is still a business. They're in it to make money as well.

yes, so many product feature/quality decisions are based on making money, not so much on what is technically possible.

You do not know the costs or the decisions the company needs to go through. Don't make assumptions.

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