On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 6,742Gear list
Like?
On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
5 months ago

Just some things that I noted when comparing these new cameras.

With Sony upping the bar with the A6000 regarding AF and PDAF, it is interesting to particularly compare these cameras.

I can't post tables, other than uplinking images, but I can highlight some of my observations.

First, the A6000 looks and feels much like the Nex-6, which is a good thing - for me. I happen to like the Nex-6 over the Nex-7.

EVF:

The E-M10 would be more appropriate, at $600, but Oly crippled this model, it seems, e.g. for starters it only has a 0.58x EVF (very small). In comparison, the XT-1 is 0.77x (largest), the EM-1 is 0.74x and the A6000 is 0.70x. (The Nex-6 and Nex-7 were 0.73x). We have to await more user reviews of the lowered resolution (A6000 is 1.4M, others are 2.4M), but for now I would call it a draw, based on first few user reports.

EVF: draw (slight disadvantage to A6000)

AF:

So, next about the PDAF. Both the XT-1 and the A6000 report having blindingly fast AF speeds with PDAF compatible lenses. The EM-1 however does not: in AF-S mode it does NOT use PDAF (link) with m43 lenses, only in AF-S mode it does. If in CDAF mode only, the EM-1 is therefore prone to focus miss - the typical foreground person/contrast in background issue. But for this discussion, let's say that AF performance is on par for the three cameras with the proper lens.

AF: draw (slight disadvantage to E-M1)

ISO:

Feature wise, the XT1 has the most number of controls, including an ISO button. But it only goes to ISO 6400 in RAW. It expands higher in JPG mode only. We know that at the highest ISO you do not want to shoot JPG, but use RAW. Funny. The E-M1 is sensor limited, and keeps well up at the lower ISOs but loses it at the higher ISOs. The A6000 is also questionable. If it is the Nex-7 sensor (performance) it is also weak at ISO 3200 and above, unlike the Nex-6. You are likely to use some kind of MFNR technology with all of them.

ISO: draw (larger disadvantage to E-M1)

Sensor IQ:

This should be a no-brainer. The Fuji XT-1 carries the 16Mp X-trans sensor forward with improvements, and has demonstrated to resolve finer than a comparable 16Mp APS-C sensor. It however is not easy to handle in RAW flows (even though software has been catching up). The Nex-7's 24Mp however has consistently outresolved the Fuji's X-trans sensors, and I fully expect that the A6000 will deliver again. It makes the E-M1 16Mp bayer sensor the weakest of the three.

Sensor IQ: 1: A6000, 2: XT-1 (close), 3: EM-1

Controls:

The XT-1 has the most amount of controls with the EM-1 being a close second. The A6000 also has many configurable controls, but it is the 'smaller' brother of the Nex-7 (and upcoming A7000) and A7. Compared to the other two, it is a 'lower end' camera, but it shows in its price point. Of course, no Mic input and no AF/MF lock are drawbacks on the A6000.

Controls: 1: XT-1 & EM-1, 2: A6000

Body size:

The XT-1 weighs in at 440gr, the E-M1 at 497gr, and the A6000 at 344gr. This makes the A6000 a featherweight. Furthermore, if you look at the body size, the A6000 is tiny, being hump-free:

Body size: advantage A6000

Price:

All features come at a price, and it is very interesting to see the A6000 comparing with the other two cameras. The A6000 is in fact cheaper than the original (metal) Nex-5 and costs even less than its preceding Nex-6 model. Impressive! In giving up some of the features, the cost of the body is only $650. Compare that to $1,300 for the XT-1 and $1,400 for the E-M1. I mean, you can get two A6000 for the price of one XT-1 or EM-1 each. That should weigh in heavily.

Price: advantage A6000

Stabilization:

With the XT-1 and the A6000 you have to use stabilized lenses. Since you already are using such lenses to also get the fast AF, it is implied that you have them. Lenses are not inexpensive - for all three cameras. Fuji lenses are reputed as 'better' for they push the aperture and resolution curve just a tad, but this comes at somewhat of a price-point. Oly lenses are reputed as high-resolving, but they have to, given the smaller sensor format. What also is becoming more acceptable is lens-corrections. E.g. for the E1650P lens, lens corrections cannot be turned of in JPG. With lens corrections, many E-mount lenses became sharper (anyone used a Nex-5 before?). So, for lenses, I would call it a draw, which leaves the choice of OSS in the lens (A6000 and XT-1) versus IBIS in the body. IBIS is a winner if you use legacy lenses (but then the crop factor might be another consideration). However, IBIS can cause shutter shock, so there are pros and cons.

Stabilization: advantage E-M1

Battery life:

Perhaps the EVF is a big factor here, but the A6000 upped the reported CIPA #shots per battery to 420. That is a whopping 20% increase! The XT-1 and the E-M1 still holds onto the old 'standard' of 350 shots (same as Nex-6).

Battery life: advantage A6000

Conclusion:

There are many more factors to consider, but if I was new to the market, and looked at these recent three offerings, a tally sheet would result in a very quick bias towards the A6000. Kudos to Sony!

If this was the A7000, which around $1,100 would price more similar to the other two models, then the question would arise: what would the A7000 need in this landscape? The A7 has increased dial control, but the Nex-7 has limited space on the body. The Tri-Navi concept was great, but needs an encore.

There are many other features to consider: geotagging (XT-1), splash-proofing (E-M1), video formats, on-camera flash (only A6000 has it), maximum fps frame-rate (A6000 11fps, up to 45images), and more. For now, the A6000 can holds its own against cameras twice its cost. Very impressive.

And, if you left price out of the equation, would the A6000 still come out on top? It is an interesting exercise.

But since price always matters, we'd have to look at price-equivalent models of both Fuji and Oly to compare against the A6000, who really do not compete, and at this point, that makes the A6000 a clear winner imho.

Conclusion: A6000 is a winner!

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +30 more
Godfrey
Forum ProPosts: 27,225
Like?
Re: On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

snore.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ttan98
Contributing MemberPosts: 984
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

what about availability of high quality lenses at reasonable prices. That's the main reason why I stop buying Sony bodies. BTW I know the prices of most important lenses from E-mount and m4/3 format.

Having said this I anticipate a rebuttal of my above statement but I am sticking to it. BTW I still own both NEX and m4/3 bodies and lenses, they are used appropriately under different  lighting and environment situations.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 12,838Gear list
Like?
Res : On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

Nice compilation.

Fuji X should get points for sharper images due to X-trans system, no Bayer filter required.

Also great "fuji" colors.

M43 offers smaller lenses, more portability and better selection.

A6000 will succeed when/if Sony starts offering more AFFORDABLE NEX-size OSS lenses again. And more of them.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Astrophotographer 10
Senior MemberPosts: 4,591Gear list
Like?
Re: Res : On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

Its worth listing the points but your comparisons are way off.

Firstly the huge EVF on the XT1 will totally outclass both A6000 and EM1 by a large margin. Its in no conceivable way a draw. Same with LCD I believe the Fuji one is larger? (not 100 sure there).

XT1 has superior manual focus aids now plus has a view that is adustable to different sizes and rotates when you hold the camera in portrait mode. Specifically XT1 has a picture in a picture mode that you can assign to split image or focus peaking in a magnified view. This is a step up from even the Sony focus peaking which is good but does not necessarily get you exact focus just very close.

AF performance is to be proven on XT1 and A6000 but it would seem A6000 is the leader there but XT1 is close and in real life it maybe much the same. EM1 does not have predictive tracking AF as far as I know.

IQ - Fuji Xtrans and colour are legendary and there is no AA filter. So whether A6000 with the 24mp sensor is better or the same or worse is not clear.

As far as XTrans and RAW that is old news and was long since corrected with many RAW converters doing a very good job now. You won't get any agreement from Fuji shooters that Nex 7 gives better IQ than XTrans 16mp. I doubt it. Nex 7 colour is a bit weak even if high rez and then there was the issue of magenta cast which we don't know if the A6000 has inherited.

High ISO. There is no way A6000 or EM10 will match the XT1. That is a long bow. Nex 7 was waaayyy worse than XE1 for high ISO noise. I expect it to be better with this but mostly it would seem from better light throughput in the colour filter array (a minor breakthrough by itself) and noise reduction from the processor (I prefer no noise reduction).

Ergonomics - Here the XT1 leaps ahead - its going to be very comfortable to use, great external dials that most like, a great form. Most comments have been very positive to its look. A6000 is same as Nex 6 which is not bad but not beautiful. Oly looks better and is 2nd best there.

XT1 also takes these super fast SD cards which will speed up everthing.

Lenses: Apart from the FE lenses the Fuji lens collection is pretty much 2nd to none and are very impressive and most are not that expensive either.

But A6000 as you say is half the price of XT1 so that is amazing that the Sony offers so much for such a low price which will attract a lot of people. It seems at this stage to represent a lot of bang for your buck but Fuji XT1 is also weather sealed (important to some) and would be the more refined upper class camera that is quite mature and does everything well. The main selling points seem to be the huge beauitful EVF, the external knobs and controls rather than electronic menus only and the tracking AF, FPS and the lens collection with the famous Fuji colours and IQ. A6000 selling points would be the fast fps, fast AF, good video,24mp res and a very low price.

I can see A6000 taking a lot of sales away from Canikon lower models. It would seem Canikon models offer nothing the A6000 can't do just as well if not a lot better and for less money and less size and weight.

Greg.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 6,742Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to ttan98, 5 months ago

ttan98 wrote:

what about availability of high quality lenses at reasonable prices. That's the main reason why I stop buying Sony bodies. BTW I know the prices of most important lenses from E-mount and m4/3 format.

Having said this I anticipate a rebuttal of my above statement but I am sticking to it. BTW I still own both NEX and m4/3 bodies and lenses, they are used appropriately under different lighting and environment situations.

Sure, a very expected response. But a very undeserving response as well. Sony has put out quite a few of very decent E-mount lenses, and we also have Sigma and Zeiss offering very nice lenses.

The gripes have been with fast zooms and long zoom lenses, but, understanding Sony, both such lenses are heavy and bulky, why mate them with a small camera back? You may as well grab your DSLR in such a case.

Fuji, as a niche player, focused on the lenses and carved out a path that enables them to be viewed as a 'Leica' alternative to DSLR users. They have been very successful since the X100 - it put them back on the map.

Oly, as a m43 'creator' cleverly changed to format to become more squarish, removing the pressure on lenses to handle corner sharpness well when used wide open. Also, because of the smaller format, larger DOF helps in achieving more sharpness. Of course, it is ISO limited, by being smaller.

Now, what is overlooked is that Fuji and Oly have concentrated on 16Mp sensors. Sony started with 16Mp, but was audacious enough to put out the 24Mp Nex-7 and that immediately caused a dillemma: the 16Mp resolving lenses weren't good enough for the Nex-7.

Since the Nex-7, lenses have improved by leaps and bounds. Who does not remember the back and forth on the E16 and its quality problems? Sure, there have been quality issues, but there have been user issues as well, and the lens does go soft at f/2.8. Had it been a f/4 lens, it would have fared better, I am sure, stopped down at f/5.6 to f/8 it is a rather decent lens, especially with the UWA adapter.

So, consider the 24Mp sensor in the A6000, and then consider these lenses, just to name a few:

  1. 12mm: Zeiss Touit 12/2.8
  2. 15mm: E20/2.8 + UWA
  3. 19mm: Sigma 19/2.8
  4. 20mm: E20/2.8
  5. 24mm: E24/1.8
  6. 30mm: Sigma 30/2.8
  7. 30mm: E30M/3.5 Macro
  8. 32mm: Zeiss Touit 32/1.8
  9. 35mm: E35/1.8 OSS
  10. 50mm: E50/1.8 OSS
  11. 50mm: Zeiss Touit 50mm/2.8 Macro
  12. 55mm: Zeiss Touit 
  13. 60mm: Sigma 60/2.8

And in zoom lenses:

  1. wide: E1018/4 OSS - can show magenta cast, but great images
  2. kit: E1855 OSS
  3. performance: E1670/4 OSS
  4. mid: E18108/4 OSS
  5. long: E18200 OSS or E55210 OSS

The zoom lenses got a bad wrap early on because of in camera algorithms (too wide aperture) leading to improper choices in usage. Also, the original E18200 is very underrated - it is a superzoom lens, and an impressive one at that. But the E1670 lens is an impressive zoom.

We are still waiting on the E85, which may become an FE85. We expect a OSS stabilized version of the A85 and we hope that it will be faster.

I skipped the E16, per the comment above, as well as the E1650P. I actually like the latter lens, I use it as a JPG shooter, and am very pleased with its result. I haven't used it on the 24Mp Nex-7 sensor, so I don't know how it compares.

Now, unlike many, I have a number of other lenses to compare again in the aforementioned focal lengths. I mention lenses such as the CV21/4, the CG28/2.8, the ZM35/2, the CG45/2, CV75/2.5, CG90/2.8 and a fairly complete range of OM lenses. I can attest that the E-primes in the list above perform quite well on the 24Mp sensor - they are up to the task.

I pick about 17 E-lenses (there are more out there) that work on the 24Mp sensor. There is a plethora of hundreds of legacy lenses that can be adapted, as well as all the A-mount lenses. This means that you can find a lens for practically any purpose, but you may not have OSS on such a lens.

I also highlighted 3 f/1.8 E mount prime lenses, that are highly rated, and just mention that for m43 you would need f/1.3 lenses for m43 to match their speed, except that digital sensors fall off rapidly below f/2. No going there.

Fuji has a more impressive list of lenses - that each compete against the Sony lenses on spec. Easily, because they were created after Sony released theirs, but they are not cheaper. So Fuji is also an expensive option.

Also, the three f/1.8 primes are really f/2.0 primes in practical terms. They are sharp then. But at f/1.8 they soften, which could throw off reviewers, or comparisons. The nice thing about this is that you are in control: if you want sharpness, stay above f/2.0. But if you want a low light portrait or another moody effect, these are wonderful lenses. In a strange way we are thankful for marketing pushing these lenses past their 'perfect' range. It saves getting two different lenses (e.g. a CV35/1.4 next to a ZM35/2.0).

If you got the four lenses listed in bold, you'd be looking at $3k in lenses. Not cheap, but you would end up with one of THE best combinations in APS-C - see the DxO scores, coupled with a 24Mp sensor, these are impressive lenses. The only m43 lens that scores anywhere near this high is the 75/1.8 lens. So yes, the E-mount could do with an equivalent, e.g. 100/f2.8 OSS lens to match that.

If going Fuji, you'd end up spending the same $3k just as quickly, and even though m43 has some less costly lenses, I see everyone picking up the very expensive ones, such as the 75/1.8 or the 12-40/2.8, which also cost near $1k each. Three high IQ primes + one high IQ zoom equals about $3k in each of the three systems, I gather, despite cheaper lens options (in all three systems).

People have asked for a 85/1.8 OSS, 100/2.8 Macro and a 135/2.8 OSS as additional prime lenses. I expect the first one to be announced this year.

And again, if you go long, you may as well use an adapter, or use a DSLR altogether, as the compactness of the format disappears. Sure m43 has a slight advantage here, but only 1/3rd (2.0/1.5 = 1 1/3rd), not a huge advantage.

And, see the image below, I have a lot of these lenses and mated them all with the 24Mp sensor in the Nex-7, so I know what to expect and what the difference are. There are absolute standards, and there are 'good enough', or 'competitive' standards, and I would argue that the Nex-7's 24Mp sensor is extremely competitive, as long as you use it correctly. The A6000 ups the usability factor of the Nex-7 by adding PDAF and faster AF. So I expect more reports from users about stunning images with the A6000 and one of those lenses.

I really feel that comments such as yours need to be qualified by what you mean: as a general comment it sounds great (sounded great) but it doesn't hold water. And us being on the defense over and over again is just negative. I think that Sony has done an excellent job of mating price/performance, leaving room for Fuji to go higher end, and competing reasonably with other format. If your experience is sour, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate today.

One last comment - the new lens profiles and in camera lens corrections do make all lenses sharper. This is often overlooked. After updating the firmware in the Nex cameras, the image IQ actually improved!

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +30 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 12,838Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

blue_skies wrote:

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry,

I noticed that you don't have a television; not even a Sony. But who can blame you. Instead, you must have the luxury of viewing all those beautiful lenses!

PS:

Here's a message from a Fuji X forum guy about the Sony A6000 which I thought was interesting, It's a slightly different perspective.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53105079

Regards,

Steve

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 6,742Gear list
Like?
Re: Res : On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, 5 months ago

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Its worth listing the points but your comparisons are way off.

Firstly the huge EVF on the XT1 will totally outclass both A6000 and EM1 by a large margin. Its in no conceivable way a draw. Same with LCD I believe the Fuji one is larger? (not 100 sure there).

Well, it has a 'smaller view' option, as the entire view can cause edge troubles. In the field, many may opt for this, as you are framing your image. That would make the view actually smaller.

XT1 has superior manual focus aids now plus has a view that is adustable to different sizes and rotates when you hold the camera in portrait mode. Specifically XT1 has a picture in a picture mode that you can assign to split image or focus peaking in a magnified view. This is a step up from even the Sony focus peaking which is good but does not necessarily get you exact focus just very close.

The split image was a reprieval of the old focus-screen cameras, and this came very much as a backlash on the X100 AF problem. I see it as neither here nor there, it is a clumsy software workaround, and no faster than FP + zoom-assist.

AF performance is to be proven on XT1 and A6000 but it would seem A6000 is the leader there but XT1 is close and in real life it maybe much the same. EM1 does not have predictive tracking AF as far as I know.

So, you agree that it is a wash then?

IQ - Fuji Xtrans and colour are legendary and there is no AA filter. So whether A6000 with the 24mp sensor is better or the same or worse is not clear.

Well, it is funny that DxO mark allows for lens ratings in their database, but Fuji is completely absent. If they were so good, why would Fuji not want to be in the database.

The Nex-7 otoh ranks right up there with FF cameras because of the sensor resolution, provided the right lens (e.g. the E24Z).

So, what you are saying is that the 16Mp APS-C Fuji outdoes the 24Mp FF cameras? I doubt this. I think that Fuji has demonstrated to extract more IQ out of an APS-C sensor of 16Mp by its X-trans sensor array, but many claim that it really is by removing the AA filter and clever (careful) software.

The stepup from 16Mp to 24Mp is a big one, I don't think that Fuji can really make that without upping the pixel count.

As far as XTrans and RAW that is old news and was long since corrected with many RAW converters doing a very good job now. You won't get any agreement from Fuji shooters that Nex 7 gives better IQ than XTrans 16mp. I doubt it. Nex 7 colour is a bit weak even if high rez and then there was the issue of magenta cast which we don't know if the A6000 has inherited.

You won't get agreement from Fuji shooters, that is for sure. You are one too, I presume?

Magenta cast issues aside, the color issue is an OOC versus PP result. The Nex always needed a boost in PP to shine. If you don't, well, your argument sticks.

As to the RAW converters, no, the debate goes on. Yes, there have been improved demosaic algorithms for Fuji sensors, but theorist claim that the regular Bayer grid has led to better algorithms in general than the irregular X trans grid, and that not sufficient man-power will ever be put into the X trans demosaic algorithms to keep them on par. Coupled with lack of AA you are not in the mainstream. Better for some purposes (marketing), worse for others. I think this is another long debate elsewhere.

High ISO. There is no way A6000 or EM10 will match the XT1. That is a long bow. Nex 7 was waaayyy worse than XE1 for high ISO noise. I expect it to be better with this but mostly it would seem from better light throughput in the colour filter array (a minor breakthrough by itself) and noise reduction from the processor (I prefer no noise reduction).

We had these discussions between the original Nex-5N (ISO king) and the Nex-7. The Nex-7, down-sampled, recovered a lot of the noise and was given a pass. But if you push ISO, the Nex-7 falls apart.

Again, if you set ISO 1600 as a limit, the cameras are comparable. At ISO 3200, the XT may edge ahead, and at higher ISO I would use neither. I would resort to either a FF sensor or a MFNR method. The MFNR works well on the Nex-7.

Ergonomics - Here the XT1 leaps ahead - its going to be very comfortable to use, great external dials that most like, a great form. Most comments have been very positive to its look. A6000 is same as Nex 6 which is not bad but not beautiful. Oly looks better and is 2nd best there.

Obviously a major point for you, but a minor point for me. I agree with you, it should have been included.

XT1 also takes these super fast SD cards which will speed up everthing.

Compared to the slow XE? I have been using super fast SD cards in all my Nex cameras. 45Mb/s in the older ones and 90Mb/s in the newer ones. Are there faster SD cards out now?

How about USB3.0? No one has that yet. I have to unplug the SDcard and put it in my USB3.0 card reader - so much faster.

Lenses: Apart from the FE lenses the Fuji lens collection is pretty much 2nd to none and are very impressive and most are not that expensive either.

For a reason. Fuji targeted their lens roadmap to be one-up on Sony. Their lenses, one by one, are priced higher than Sony lenses, but lower than Sony Zeiss. So it all depends. I would not consider a Fuji system a low-cost option, rather a more pricey proposition.

But A6000 as you say is half the price of XT1 so that is amazing that the Sony offers so much for such a low price which will attract a lot of people. It seems at this stage to represent a lot of bang for your buck but Fuji XT1 is also weather sealed (important to some) and would be the more refined upper class camera that is quite mature and does everything well. The main selling points seem to be the huge beauitful EVF, the external knobs and controls rather than electronic menus only and the tracking AF, FPS and the lens collection with the famous Fuji colours and IQ. A6000 selling points would be the fast fps, fast AF, good video,24mp res and a very low price.

For some the size does not matter, but I am very used to the Nex sizes, and find the Fuji cameras a bit large. Many however like the larger Fuji cameras because you have more grip, larger buttons, more buttons, and it feels more like a pro camera. It all depends.

In terms of operation, the Fuji and Oly both have an edge with so many marked buttons that the Nex does not have. This new Nex has more markings which may help a little, but it is not a real match for the other two, I agree.

Despite your Fuji preferences, I don't see many Fuji shooters coming over to Sony, nor do I see Sony shooters moving over to Fuji. Many already found their allegiance in years past (yes, many posters here moved to Fuji) for Fuji's catering to more sophisticated ('pro') users. Fuji has done an excellent marketing and product strategy, but they remain a niche player as a result. If Fuji wants to get the masses, they must come with a price leading model, which is a bit hard for them.

Sony is more the consumer focused player, which gets the masses, but being viewed as 'pro' oriented is very hard to do at that time. However, with their activitives since the RX1 they seem to be astutely aware that being #1 in what they do matters. So time will tell.

I can see A6000 taking a lot of sales away from Canikon lower models. It would seem Canikon models offer nothing the A6000 can't do just as well if not a lot better and for less money and less size and weight.

Expect some discounting specials from the Canikon camp in the interim. Who knows? Still, the DSLR prevails in the sales numbers, and I don't see the A6000 changing it. But I can see it being a winner for Sony. If nothing else, it removes one of the big hypes around the Sony cameras - poor AF.

Greg.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +30 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 6,742Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

captura wrote:

Henry,

I noticed that you don't have a television; not even a Sony. But who can blame you. Instead, you must have the luxury of viewing all those beautiful lenses!

Not in the picture, Steve. There is a 60" plasma TV around the wall that you cannot see. I have six tv sets in the house, lol. Only one (old one) is a Sony...

PS:

Here's a message from a Fuji X forum guy about the Sony A6000 which I thought was interesting, It's a slightly different perspective.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53105079

Great post - show it to Greg below. Looks like the A6000 is beginning to pierce some of the Fuji purists hypes as well.

I think Sony is turning into a new company: being first cannot be denied

Regards,

Steve

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +30 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
LTZ470
Forum ProPosts: 10,392
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

Nice try Henry...when they get PDAF that works indoors in low light they'll be close to fast AF...but this one will be like the Nex-6 slower than Nex-7 and RX1 indoors room lighting...24mp Nex-7 is not that great in low light to be honest...

Nice camera, but no where near the handling of an EM1 and no where near the AF lens selection...and of course the AF Speed will have to be proven in reality...hopefully it's better than the A7r and LA-EA4 adapter...

A6000 = meh....mostly boring made over Nex...

A7 or A7R with same feature set as A6000 = Winner for Sony!

-- hide signature --

Really there is a God...and He loves you..
FlickR Photostream:
www.flickr.com/photos/46756347@N08/
Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 6,742Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to LTZ470, 5 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Nice try Henry...when they get PDAF that works indoors in low light they'll be close to fast AF...but this one will be like the Nex-6 slower than Nex-7 and RX1 indoors room lighting...24mp Nex-7 is not that great in low light to be honest...

Nice camera, but no where near the handling of an EM1 and no where near the AF lens selection...and of course the AF Speed will have to be proven in reality...hopefully it's better than the A7r and LA-EA4 adapter...

A6000 = meh....mostly boring made over Nex...

A7 or A7R with same feature set as A6000 = Winner for Sony!

Good to see you warming up to Sony again, Cole

As I said elsewhere, Sony claiming #1 sets up all reviewers - it is a bold claim. How it compares in practice is to be seen, but I expect that reviewers have to evaluate the claim, and agree if true.

I think that Sony is becoming a different company. The A7r, the FE lens lineup, the RX10, the earlier RX1/R and RX100-II have all become #1 in their category. If Sony has changed from #1 leading innovator company to #1 product company, we can be in for quite a few more pleasant surprises.

Sony has thrown down the gauntlet in more than one arena. All this commotion about 'can they be active on so many fronts' should stop now. Their answer obviously is 'yes, we are big enough!'

My bet is on Sony delivering a lot more to us in the future. Fun times.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +30 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 12,838Gear list
Like?
Re: Res : On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, 5 months ago

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Its worth listing the points but your comparisons are way off.

Firstly the huge EVF on the XT1 will totally outclass both A6000 and EM1 by a large margin. Its in no conceivable way a draw. Same with LCD I believe the Fuji one is larger? (not 100 sure there).

XT1 has superior manual focus aids now plus has a view that is adustable to different sizes and rotates when you hold the camera in portrait mode. Specifically XT1 has a picture in a picture mode that you can assign to split image or focus peaking in a magnified view. This is a step up from even the Sony focus peaking which is good but does not necessarily get you exact focus just very close.

AF performance is to be proven on XT1 and A6000 but it would seem A6000 is the leader there but XT1 is close and in real life it maybe much the same. EM1 does not have predictive tracking AF as far as I know.

IQ - Fuji Xtrans and colour are legendary and there is no AA filter. So whether A6000 with the 24mp sensor is better or the same or worse is not clear.

As far as XTrans and RAW that is old news and was long since corrected with many RAW converters doing a very good job now. You won't get any agreement from Fuji shooters that Nex 7 gives better IQ than XTrans 16mp. I doubt it. Nex 7 colour is a bit weak even if high rez and then there was the issue of magenta cast which we don't know if the A6000 has inherited.

High ISO. There is no way A6000 or EM10 will match the XT1. That is a long bow. Nex 7 was waaayyy worse than XE1 for high ISO noise. I expect it to be better with this but mostly it would seem from better light throughput in the colour filter array (a minor breakthrough by itself) and noise reduction from the processor (I prefer no noise reduction).

Ergonomics - Here the XT1 leaps ahead - its going to be very comfortable to use, great external dials that most like, a great form. Most comments have been very positive to its look. A6000 is same as Nex 6 which is not bad but not beautiful. Oly looks better and is 2nd best there.

XT1 also takes these super fast SD cards which will speed up everthing.

Lenses: Apart from the FE lenses the Fuji lens collection is pretty much 2nd to none and are very impressive and most are not that expensive either.

But A6000 as you say is half the price of XT1 so that is amazing that the Sony offers so much for such a low price which will attract a lot of people. It seems at this stage to represent a lot of bang for your buck but Fuji XT1 is also weather sealed (important to some) and would be the more refined upper class camera that is quite mature and does everything well. The main selling points seem to be the huge beauitful EVF, the external knobs and controls rather than electronic menus only and the tracking AF, FPS and the lens collection with the famous Fuji colours and IQ. A6000 selling points would be the fast fps, fast AF, good video,24mp res and a very low price.

I can see A6000 taking a lot of sales away from Canikon lower models. It would seem Canikon models offer nothing the A6000 can't do just as well if not a lot better and for less money and less size and weight.

Greg.

Thanks Greg. You did not notice that I am not the author of that message. I was just skimming around the forums and came across it.

Good points you made. Some prefer the A6000 style to the Fuji or the OMD.

Steve

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 12,838Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to LTZ470, 5 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Nice try Henry...when they get PDAF that works indoors in low light they'll be close to fast AF...but this one will be like the Nex-6 slower than Nex-7 and RX1 indoors room lighting...24mp Nex-7 is not that great in low light to be honest...

Nice camera, but no where near the handling of an EM1 and no where near the AF lens selection...and of course the AF Speed will have to be proven in reality...hopefully it's better than the A7r and LA-EA4 adapter...

A6000 = meh....mostly boring made over Nex...

A7 or A7R with same feature set as A6000 = Winner for Sony!

-- hide signature --

Really there is a God...and He loves you..
FlickR Photostream:
www.flickr.com/photos/46756347@N08/
Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

Oh I don't know. My better Olympus is an E-PM1 and with CDAF it is very fast in daylight. But although it wants to be fast at night or indoors, it simply runs out of ISO.

My 5R is superior to the E-PM1 in low light AF speed, although still no great shakes. A 16 mp Olympus like the E-M1/ E-M10 might come close, but not close to the A6000.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 12,838Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

blue_skies wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Nice try Henry...when they get PDAF that works indoors in low light they'll be close to fast AF...but this one will be like the Nex-6 slower than Nex-7 and RX1 indoors room lighting...24mp Nex-7 is not that great in low light to be honest...

Nice camera, but no where near the handling of an EM1 and no where near the AF lens selection...and of course the AF Speed will have to be proven in reality...hopefully it's better than the A7r and LA-EA4 adapter...

A6000 = meh....mostly boring made over Nex...

A7 or A7R with same feature set as A6000 = Winner for Sony!

Good to see you warming up to Sony again, Cole

As I said elsewhere, Sony claiming #1 sets up all reviewers - it is a bold claim. How it compares in practice is to be seen, but I expect that reviewers have to evaluate the claim, and agree if true.

I think that Sony is becoming a different company. The A7r, the FE lens lineup, the RX10, the earlier RX1/R and RX100-II have all become #1 in their category. If Sony has changed from #1 leading innovator company to #1 product company, we can be in for quite a few more pleasant surprises.

Sony has thrown down the gauntlet in more than one arena. All this commotion about 'can they be active on so many fronts' should stop now. Their answer obviously is 'yes, we are big enough!'

My bet is on Sony delivering a lot more to us in the future. Fun times.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Save up to $200 on select Fujifilm X-Series mirrorless cameras.

Ha ha.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Astrophotographer 10
Senior MemberPosts: 4,591Gear list
Like?
Re: Res : On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

All good points.

I have both Sony and Fuji cameras. I like them both and have an RX100, Nex 6, A7r and aFuji XE1 and had an X100s but sold it. I have several Fuji lenses which are all superb and some of the best lenses I have used.

It will be interesting to see some sample images from the A6000 to see how the IQ is. It should be good. No AA filter would have been a choice here - perhaps Sony decided not to for less video moire. Nikon's cameras are all mostly no AA models now and there is a considerable gain in sharpness and contrast from no AA filter but it could cost video performance (moire). That also depends on the way video is presented.

As far as high ISO goes, in my case - which is not usual imaging, I often do 30 seconds ISO6400 at F2.8 for nightscapes. So high ISO performance for me is a critical performance measure, not downsampling - what comes out of the camera. I would not expect this 24mp camera to match XE1 or A7r in this regards. Nex 7 in the comparison tool on this site is very very noisy at ISO6400 in RAW. Fuji overstate their ISO's but even so it is very very clean at ISO6400. A7r is quite clean as well as was my Nikon D800e.

I think the reason DXOmark does not have Fuji cameras in its database is to do with the Xtrans and not because Fuji does not want it tested. They are no equipped to handle a different type of sensor.

I am looking forward to hearing more about A6000. I "need" to decide whether to upgrade my XE1 to an XT1 or is A6000 the better choice seeing also as I am accumulating FE lenses.

Greg.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Emacs23
Regular MemberPosts: 418Gear list
Like?
Re: Res : On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

captura wrote:

Fuji X should get points for sharper images due to X-trans system, no Bayer filter required.

Also great "fuji" colors.

AA-less XTrans doesn't give sharper images (the opposite is truth) – still, no raw processor for xtrans can't match amaze demosaic for details, Fuji colors are only color profiles, otherwise old NEX cameras have better color separation.

 Emacs23's gear list:Emacs23's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-5N Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Leica Super-Elmar-M 18mm f/3.8 ASPH Leica Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH Leica Summilux-M 50mm f/1.4 ASPH +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Astrophotographer 10
Senior MemberPosts: 4,591Gear list
Like?
Re: Res : On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

Oh I see. Thanks Steve.

Greg.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,686Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

captura wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Nice try Henry...when they get PDAF that works indoors in low light they'll be close to fast AF...but this one will be like the Nex-6 slower than Nex-7 and RX1 indoors room lighting...24mp Nex-7 is not that great in low light to be honest...

Nice camera, but no where near the handling of an EM1 and no where near the AF lens selection...and of course the AF Speed will have to be proven in reality...hopefully it's better than the A7r and LA-EA4 adapter...

A6000 = meh....mostly boring made over Nex...

A7 or A7R with same feature set as A6000 = Winner for Sony!

-- hide signature --

Really there is a God...and He loves you..
FlickR Photostream:
www.flickr.com/photos/46756347@N08/
Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

Oh I don't know. My better Olympus is an E-PM1 and with CDAF it is very fast in daylight. But although it wants to be fast at night or indoors, it simply runs out of ISO.

My 5R is superior to the E-PM1 in low light AF speed, although still no great shakes. A 16 mp Olympus like the E-M1/ E-M10 might come close, but not close to the A6000.

Dear, E-PM1 is a very old tech, fast AF in m43 world really started with GH2 camera... did you read that Sony itself acknowledged that their AF in A6000 is nowhere near Nikon 1 and m43 ? reread from the official press release = "Amongst interchangeable-lens digital cameras equipped with an ____APS-C___ image sensor as of February 12, 2014. Determined with internal measurement method with E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OSS lens mounted, Pre-AF off and viewfinder in use." ... as for low light - m43 cameras now focus @ -4EV (or EV-4, if you prever this notation)

 exdeejjjaaaa's gear list:exdeejjjaaaa's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +20 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
nzmacro
Veteran MemberPosts: 8,806Gear list
Like?
Re: On recent cameras: EM-1, XT-1, A6000 ...
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

Very good Henry. I would love to try the Fuji EVF, it sounds darn clever.

So being a MF user only, I can mount and use virtually any mirrorless camera out there and yet, here I am.

What some have as great specs on a camera, other things are missing. I keep looking at everything out there and nothing inspires me or would benefit me more than what I already use. Sure there is plenty of nice gear out there, but why change. One day maybe, but I can't honestly see between those cameras up there what would suit me better.

All the best Henry, nice read with a strong coffee

Danny.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 6,742Gear list
Like?
Re: You are comparing bodies only.....
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, 5 months ago

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

captura wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Nice try Henry...when they get PDAF that works indoors in low light they'll be close to fast AF...but this one will be like the Nex-6 slower than Nex-7 and RX1 indoors room lighting...24mp Nex-7 is not that great in low light to be honest...

Nice camera, but no where near the handling of an EM1 and no where near the AF lens selection...and of course the AF Speed will have to be proven in reality...hopefully it's better than the A7r and LA-EA4 adapter...

A6000 = meh....mostly boring made over Nex...

A7 or A7R with same feature set as A6000 = Winner for Sony!

-- hide signature --

Really there is a God...and He loves you..
FlickR Photostream:
www.flickr.com/photos/46756347@N08/
Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

Oh I don't know. My better Olympus is an E-PM1 and with CDAF it is very fast in daylight. But although it wants to be fast at night or indoors, it simply runs out of ISO.

My 5R is superior to the E-PM1 in low light AF speed, although still no great shakes. A 16 mp Olympus like the E-M1/ E-M10 might come close, but not close to the A6000.

Dear, E-PM1 is a very old tech, fast AF in m43 world really started with GH2 camera... did you read that Sony itself acknowledged that their AF in A6000 is nowhere near Nikon 1 and m43 ? reread from the official press release = "Amongst interchangeable-lens digital cameras equipped with an ____APS-C___ image sensor as of February 12, 2014. Determined with internal measurement method with E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OSS lens mounted, Pre-AF off and viewfinder in use." ... as for low light - m43 cameras now focus @ -4EV (or EV-4, if you prever this notation)

Lol, you are coming here to tell us that m43 is better at -4EV shooting? That is when we turn to FF sensors. Hint: they are 4x larger! With m43 you would need MFNR to reduce the noise - for you'll only be capturing noise, lol.

We mentioned already here earlier, there is no standard for low light. Anyone makes something different out of it.

Just how many lumens is -4EV exactly at f/1.4? According to Canon it requires a 30s exposure, see the graph below. You can't even light a candle then, can you - that'll be too bright Wikipedia suggest -4EV equivalent to the illumination by a half-lit moon or the Aurea Borealis as your only light source. I call that dark

But then, I know that m43 users like to stay at ISO 100. Of course you'll hit -4EV rather quickly. Larger sensor can handle larger ISOs - it will be rare to ever shoot at -4EV with them, if you have a fast lens. Just as a reference, home-interiors at night are typically at or above +5EV, and we consider that low-light Which makes sense at 1/15th at f/1.4 - who cannot recall seeing that?

Popular exposure chart type, showing exposure values EV (red lines) as combinations of aperture and shutter speed values. The green lines are sample program lines, by which a digital camera automatically selects both the shutter speed and the aperture for given exposure value (brightness of light), when set to Program mode (P).Canon

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +30 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads