Weather sealing user’s expectations

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Zvonimir Tosic
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Weather sealing user’s expectations
5 months ago

Although one user from another thread has suffered a glitch with his new K-3, he is covered and his camera will be replaced.

It is still well under warranty and the local supplier is nothing short of amazing in providing exceptional customer service.

However, this is an opportunity for other users learn a few valuable tips before the purchase, and remember them during and after the purchase of the Pentax K-3 camera and a lens from the Pentax range.

TIP NO. 1 — WHEN WARRANTY WILL BE NULLIFIED?

Any warranty will be nullified by the manufacturer if the damage to a camera was caused by moist that creeped in when using the K-3 with a non-weather-resistant lens. It is plain common sense, right?

Not to some. Many folks expect camera to be weather-proof using any lens they have, under all weather conditions. To them, DA Limiteds, old A, M, K series of lenses and Takumars, etc. is all the same. Well, it doesn’t work like that.

Get to know your camera and your lenses first. Don’t go out in adverse weather and shoot openly exposed to elements if you don’t have a WR lens — you will most likely damage your camera and your lens. And your false expectations.

TIP NO. 2 — BE MINDFUL OF DIFFERENT WR DESIGNATIONS.

Pentax has two different WR designations:

a) WR, and

b) DA*.

WR lenses have limits as to what to expect from them. WR lenses cannot be used for a prolonged time in adverse weather. Instead of them, use DA* lenses, which were purpose-built for such use. DA* lenses have better seals overall.

In short:

  • Light rain (WR) — Prolonged use in rain (DA*)
  • Light snow (WR) – Prolonged use in snow (DA*)
  • Slightly dusty atmosphere (WR) – Prolonged use in dusty atmosphere (DA*)
  • Low temperatures use shortly (WR) — Prolonged low temperature use (DA*)

Note: None of WR, DA* lenses or the K-3 camera can be submerged in water at any time. Lenses and camera are not water-proof, they are weather resistant.

TIP NO 3. WHICH ONE TO BUY — WR or DA*?

Be sincere to yourself, and to your gear. Plan your budget carefully, and be mindful of the intended use of camera. If you really want to use camera frequently in early mornings, in adverse weather or in extremes of climate, get yourself DA* lens(es). Fo example, users living in tropics on in cold north / south, will be better suited with a DA* lens. It is much better investment, better economy and a peace of mind too, especially considering the lifetime of use of such a lens.

If you live in moderate climates and think you may occasionally take some photographs in adverse wether, but nothing too serious and all very guarded, WR lenses may be a good choice.

TIP NO. 4. TEST YOUR K-3!

If you have a WR or a DA* lens, go out and test your K-3. Be mindful of designations and what to expect from each. Do it right away, so if there is any problem with camera’s seals, you will notice it in time, and have the camera repaired or replaced when it’s still well under warranty.

TIP NO.5. EXERCISE COMMON SENSE.

Even if you think that camera and lens should perform in a certain way, don’t push it too hard and don’t be unreasonable. Many amateur users deliberately push their equipment well above limits of any common sense, and then blame the manufacturer for their own negligence and lack of respect. Firstly, take all care that you are well protected when shooting in adverse weather, and then, be mindful of your gear too. Take all reasonable precaution to help your equipment work as best as possible, by minimising adverse impact onto it. Extra covers for your camera and lenses are always recommended, same as you would wear a raincoat yourself.

TIP NO. 6. LET THE EQUIPMENT DRY WELL BEFORE OPENING.

When you come home, or into your shelter, do not unmount your lens immediately. Wipe the camera and lens with dry cloth, and let the camera and lens dry slowly and completely. Only then, after an hour or two at a stabilised temperature with no excessive humidity around that may creep inside the camera, unmount the lens.

Digital cameras are far more susceptible to moist damage than their film counterparts. Thus even when designated as weather-resistant, digital cameras are more likely to suffer from condensation if you are not conscious about

1. sudden rapid changes of temperature,

2. unmounting/mounting of lenses, and

3. changing of batteries.

Hope this will save some users unnecessary moans

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emem
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Interesting -
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

from where did you get all of this text? (and ultimately the information).

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sleepwalker400
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

nicely put and appreciated

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jhmos
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Re: Interesting -
In reply to emem, 5 months ago

emem wrote:

from where did you get all of this text? (and ultimately the information).

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'It is known'.

Sorry, couldn't resist a Game of Thrones quip.

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leopold
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Precision in cold weather
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

Well for shooting in really cold weather you don't need a DA* or WR lens, cold doesn't affect lenses much from my experience. I've been shooting in quite cold temperatures for a long time now and have used lenses ranging from Takumar (M42), plastic lenses like my Canon 15-85mm and up to my WR and DA* lenses and they all performed very well.

Sure when it's snowing i prefer to use a WR or DA* lens and found now difference in the field between the 2 types of weather sealing degree.

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Zvonimir Tosic
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Really cold also means rapid change of temperature.
In reply to leopold, 5 months ago

leopold wrote:

Well for shooting in really cold weather you don't need a DA* or WR lens, cold doesn't affect lenses much from my experience. I've been shooting in quite cold temperatures for a long time now and have used lenses ranging from Takumar (M42), plastic lenses like my Canon 15-85mm and up to my WR and DA* lenses and they all performed very well.

Sure when it's snowing i prefer to use a WR or DA* lens and found now difference in the field between the 2 types of weather sealing degree.

Really cold also means rapid change of temperature.

In a rapid change of temperature between indoors and outdoors condensation is inevitable. In fact, that is more dangerous and invisible enemy than rain or snow.

Thus we can say you were rather lucky in using your Takumars and plastic lenses in very cold weather, not necessarily well-prepared for the experience.

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jhmos
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Re: Precision in cold weather
In reply to leopold, 5 months ago

leopold wrote:

Sure when it's snowing i prefer to use a WR or DA* lens and found now difference in the field between the 2 types of weather sealing degree.

I hope that is the case because if I ever get out ski touring again, I'd rather take the cheaper lighter 18-135 WR and hope is also helps protect the camera. Unfortunately in Australia, the snow is usually not that dry.

Doesn't Pentax also have a AW weather sealed designation? I recall seeing mention of it somewhere and how it related to DA* but can't remember where.

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Mike Hiran
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

If I may add to this list - don't equate rain as the same as water under pressure like a squirt gun, a faucet, or showerhead.  Water under pressure has a much greater chance of pushing past seals than water that falls on a camera.

I have rinsed off my camera before (which means I took a risk) in a sink, but rather than letting the stream of water from the faucet fall straight on the lens, I put my hand into the stream so the water would drip onto the lens.  And I limited the flow of water that the faucet put out too - it was at maybe 1/4 flow, not full blast.

If something had gone wrong with my rinsing, I don't know if Pentax would cover the problem and I would not have expected them too.  But I was confident that it would be fine, nevertheless, the risk was mine and I was ok with that.

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viking79
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

If I recall, the warranty with my K20d said specifically that it did not cover water damage.  Maybe the newer cameras are different, or they handle it on a case by case basis (since they sort of advertise water resistance)?

Eric

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KentG
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Mike Hiran, 5 months ago

All good advice. While I have lived in cold climates (Alaska and Maine) I have never shot there. But I have shot in tropical rain forests (Central America, Philippines). All in the days before WR lenses of any type but in the days of weather-sealed film cameras in CA but not the Philippines. The level of sealing the cameras had determined whether your equipment was still working at the end of the expedition. The lenses tended to survive but their lack of sealing would often compromise some of the models of cameras used. In the Philippines in was before any kind of sealing, but the cameras were simpler, Canon FD, Pentax M42, and some others. Very little electronics so as long as the battery survived and moisture/condensation was handled things seemed to work.

I personally prefer to count on the WR function to protect the system as the last resort not as the main protection. If it gets past the rain covers and the desiccant packs only then should you count on the WR seals to protect it.

Kent Gittings

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Cigarguy
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

To me a WR system is usable in light rain, mist, fog, light snow or dry heavy snow.  A WP system can handle rain, including heavy monsoon rain, heavy wet snow and a full on splash of water but is not a scubadiver.

Shooting lots during dry Canadian winters, I'm always mindful of condensation.  Being a glasses wearer I understand well my shooting capability once my lens fog up.  During film days, with a manual body, I was also concern about dust scratching the film when winding film.  A modern digital camera with all that electronics is a greater concern.

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emem
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Ah - so now we're reconfiguring the language ....
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

leopold wrote:

Well for shooting in really cold weather you don't need a DA* or WR lens, cold doesn't affect lenses much from my experience. I've been shooting in quite cold temperatures for a long time now and have used lenses ranging from Takumar (M42), plastic lenses like my Canon 15-85mm and up to my WR and DA* lenses and they all performed very well.

Sure when it's snowing i prefer to use a WR or DA* lens and found now difference in the field between the 2 types of weather sealing degree.

Really cold also means rapid change of temperature.

In a rapid change of temperature between indoors and outdoors condensation is inevitable. In fact, that is more dangerous and invisible enemy than rain or snow.

Thus we can say you were rather lucky in using your Takumars and plastic lenses in very cold weather, not necessarily well-prepared for the experience.

Does it not occur to you that Leopold lives in Canada and obviously copes very well with extremely cold conditions on a regular basis?

And again I ask, Zvonimir - on what authority do you draw for this broad ranging information of the weather resistance (or otherwise) of Pentax? And who actually wrote the text?

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Barry Pearson
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All Weather
In reply to jhmos, 5 months ago

jhmos wrote:

Doesn't Pentax also have a AW weather sealed designation? I recall seeing mention of it somewhere and how it related to DA* but can't remember where.

There is a good description in the Pentax Lens Catalogue:

"AW" (All Weather) applies to the DA* lenses plus the HD DA 560mm f/5.6 ED AW.

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Barry Pearson
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

.......

TIP NO. 2 — BE MINDFUL OF DIFFERENT WR DESIGNATIONS.

Pentax has two different WR designations:

a) WR, and

b) DA*.

WR lenses have limits as to what to expect from them. WR lenses cannot be used for a prolonged time in adverse weather. Instead of them, use DA* lenses, which were purpose-built for such use. DA* lenses have better seals overall.

In short:

  • Light rain (WR) — Prolonged use in rain (DA*)
  • Light snow (WR) – Prolonged use in snow (DA*)
  • Slightly dusty atmosphere (WR) – Prolonged use in dusty atmosphere (DA*)
  • Low temperatures use shortly (WR) — Prolonged low temperature use (DA*)

In their Lens and Accessories Catalogue , they describe AW - All Weather. This applies to all the DA* lenses plus the 560mm f/5.6.

Given the AW nature of the 560mm, which isn't a DA* lens, using "AW" is more accurate than using DA* as a designation.

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tcom
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

TIP NO. 1 — WHEN WARRANTY WILL BE NULLIFIED?

Any warranty will be nullified by the manufacturer if the damage to a camera was caused by moist that creeped in when using the K-3 with a non-weather-resistant lens. It is plain common sense, right?

You seem to have another description of the warranty than I have. Ricoh mentions clearly:

Service will be rendered, and defective parts will be replaced without cost to you within that period, provided the equipment does not show evidence of impact, sand or liquid damage, mishandling, tampering, battery or chemical corrosion, operation contrary to operating instructions, or modification by an unauthorized repair shop.

Ricoh is not interested to know if you used a weather sealed lens or not, if there is evidence of liquid damage, the warranty is voided. I guess they do it on an individual basis, but the warranty conditions allow them to cancel the warranty in case of water ingress. They are not even interested to know whether water entered the camera through lens mount (non WR lens) or through defective seals.

TIP NO. 4. TEST YOUR K-3!

If you have a WR or a DA* lens, go out and test your K-3. Be mindful of designations and what to expect from each. Do it right away, so if there is any problem with camera’s seals, you will notice it in time, and have the camera repaired or replaced when it’s still well under warranty.

Given the extract from the warranty description of Ricoh I mentionned above, I strongly warn from testing the weather sealing. How will you argue if Ricoh claims you tested outside the limits of what the seals can resist?

TIP NO. 6. LET THE EQUIPMENT DRY WELL BEFORE OPENING.

When you come home, or into your shelter, do not unmount your lens immediately. Wipe the camera and lens with dry cloth, and let the camera and lens dry slowly and completely. Only then, after an hour or two at a stabilised temperature with no excessive humidity around that may creep inside the camera, unmount the lens.

Wow, how are the people in South East Asia or Central America going to change the lens? I guess they are stucked with the kit lens...

Digital cameras are far more susceptible to moist damage than their film counterparts. Thus even when designated as weather-resistant, digital cameras are more likely to suffer from condensation if you are not conscious about

I will take this a step further...

I used a four months old K-5 IIs with DA15 during two hours in the fog. Six months later, the corrosion, caused by the humidity entering through the defective AF/MF switch, killed the camera.

It happened in a place I photographed already in previous years quite a few time, most in pretty much the same conditions, the usual fog on the waterfront of Swakopmund, Namibia.

I used a *istD with FAJ 18-35, this camera is still perfectly working. I used also a K100D with DA16-45, which is also still in perfect working conditions.

It was finally a weather sealed camera which did not survive these conditions.

My guess is that humidity probably entered all three cameras, *istD, K100D and K-5 IIs. But the seals of the K-5 IIs kept the humidity inside and caused the corrosion.

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DAVID MANZE
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Re: Weather sealing user’s expectations
In reply to Barry Pearson, 5 months ago

Hi,

After bringing a camera indoors after shooting in very cold conditions it should be put in a plastic bag to prevent condensation from forming on both it's exterior and it's interior until the cameras has warmed up to room temperature!

Vis a vis fog and seals, these seals are a sort of silicon sponge and they work by surface tension and are not water tight but do have the benefit of allowing air to ventilate the camera body which permits humidity to escape, however, I would count on this in the case of a severe fog soaking in which case I would place the camera in a dry warm place after drying down the outside with the lens removed and crossing my fingers!

I would never do a severe outside water test to WR was working, to me this is just asking for trouble if the sevice dept. decides it was user error.

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Zvonimir Tosic
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Liquid damage ...
In reply to tcom, 5 months ago

tcom wrote:

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

TIP NO. 1 — WHEN WARRANTY WILL BE NULLIFIED?

Any warranty will be nullified by the manufacturer if the damage to a camera was caused by moist that creeped in when using the K-3 with a non-weather-resistant lens. It is plain common sense, right?

You seem to have another description of the warranty than I have. Ricoh mentions clearly:

Service will be rendered, and defective parts will be replaced without cost to you within that period, provided the equipment does not show evidence of impact, sand or liquid damage, mishandling, tampering, battery or chemical corrosion, operation contrary to operating instructions, or modification by an unauthorized repair shop.

Ricoh is not interested to know if you used a weather sealed lens or not, if there is evidence of liquid damage, the warranty is voided. I guess they do it on an individual basis, but the warranty conditions allow them to cancel the warranty in case of water ingress. They are not even interested to know whether water entered the camera through lens mount (non WR lens) or through defective seals.

If the liquid entered the camera, then we are not talking only about little humidity on an LCD, right?

It points to the fact that camera was exposed to a high pressure water impact. For example, it was submerged in the sea, river or lake, washed under high-pressure hose, etc.

Or that a camera was used with a non-WR lens in conditions that even a modest exposure to liquid would damage the innards.

Or it was handled with little care in adverse weather: lenses mounted / unmounted, battery door / card slot opened and closed in highly humid weather, etc. even with WR-designated lenses.

A properly handled and sealed camera with a WR lens on it should withstand typical use described in the description of the lenses, and an impact, corrosion, liquid damage, etc. points to something other than that.

That is why I have pointed to fact that there are two different types of weather-sealed lenses. There also liquids other than water, which may harm the equipment more severely. Etc.

The level of damage is easy to discern, and a service person may clearly see what kind of water damage caused the malfunction.

If Pentax branded cameras are proudly advertised as weather-resistant with certain lenses, and that emphasised as their particular point of sale, nullifying every warranty claim would be perceived as false advertising. Because the user has the right to see if the advertising is true as it claims, because on those same presumptions the camera was purchased in the first place. Therefore each assessment of the claim must be taken on individual basis.

I have only stated a few recommended tips for users to make sure they trial the camera more informed and more carefully than they usually do.

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Zvonimir Tosic
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In reply to Barry Pearson, 5 months ago

Barry Pearson wrote:

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

.......

TIP NO. 2 — BE MINDFUL OF DIFFERENT WR DESIGNATIONS.

Pentax has two different WR designations:

a) WR, and

b) DA*.

WR lenses have limits as to what to expect from them. WR lenses cannot be used for a prolonged time in adverse weather. Instead of them, use DA* lenses, which were purpose-built for such use. DA* lenses have better seals overall.

In short:

  • Light rain (WR) — Prolonged use in rain (DA*)
  • Light snow (WR) – Prolonged use in snow (DA*)
  • Slightly dusty atmosphere (WR) – Prolonged use in dusty atmosphere (DA*)
  • Low temperatures use shortly (WR) — Prolonged low temperature use (DA*)

In their Lens and Accessories Catalogue , they describe AW - All Weather. This applies to all the DA* lenses plus the 560mm f/5.6.

Given the AW nature of the 560mm, which isn't a DA* lens, using "AW" is more accurate than using DA* as a designation.

How the actual future lineup of Pentax K-mount lenses will unfold, we know little. At present, only one lens in the K-mount is designated as AW, and that is DA560.

All other all-weather lenses available are currently labeled as DA*. Until that entire range changes its name, we can assume DA* is the current naming.

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DAVID MANZE
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Slightly off topic! But still about water ingress.
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

Hi,

Sea water is the real risk to DSLRs as the salt combined with the voltage in a camera can in a matter of minutes, destroy a circuit board or at least some of it. I remember when sailing alone from the south of France to Corsica at night when a rogue wave broke over the cockpit some of it passing into the boat and falling on my ghetto blaster to which I was listening to pass the time. It instantly stopped and I dismantled it within minutes (leaving the boat on auto pilot) to find a little water on one of the smaller circuit boards inside. The sea water combined with the voltage had already eaten through two of the copper tracks on the board ( in three or four minutes), I rinsed it and with a wet rag wiped the remaining interior ensuring no salt water remained, then re-soldered the tracks, reassembled it and away it went again.

Fog when near the sea can contain salt and as I stated in my last post can pass through the seals as their protection by surface tension no longer functions and re-condenses inside to stay for ever (salt will never evaporate) and even if the camera functions for a while, it's days are numbered.

Sea fog is the worst!

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sleepwalker400
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Re: Liquid damage ...
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, 5 months ago

DO you in fact work for PENTAX because from my point of view it sure does seem as if you do.

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