A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
stevo23
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to M Dennis Fern, 6 months ago

M Dennis Fern wrote:

New A7r with new FE24-70 mounted (no adapter naturally). The lens cap was on and I covered the lens with the black vinyl lens case (which has a heavy base on the end). I took the photo in the sun at 30 seconds with an ISO of 25,600. Obviously, this is not a one-off problem. The idea of a home-made fix using gaffer tape on my new camera is not appealing. Any suggestions?

Dennis - you're on the right track with your method.

You can isolate this a little more definitively before deciding that you have an issue.

I think you want to avoid shooting this setup in the sun, even if you have the lens bagged. It's hard to know what behavior you're actually testing for with such a bright source as the sun. I also think that avoiding high ISO and long exposure is important to isolate noise/sensor behavior from actual light leaks.

I would do your bagged lens test in a black room with an LED flashlight with 5 second exposures at ISO400. Shine the light directly around the actual ring, but pointing inward at the camera. Also make sure that bag doesn't transmit light - I doubt it's completely light proof. It may take some effort to achieve a light tight test which only isolates the mounting ring.

Also, try this with more than one lens - that could be very enlightening.

I'm not denying or confirming that there is an issue, I just want to see if we can eliminate other variables and confirm what's happening.

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Heaven is for real
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to M Dennis Fern, 6 months ago

M Dennis Fern wrote:

Unfortunately, the problem is real. See my earlier post where I left some samples of photos taken with my 24-70 FE lens mounted on the camera with the lens cap and the lens case on. The lens case is made of a heavy vinyl material and has a substantial, padded bottom. The leak, then, is around the flange between the lens and the camera and is evidently in the same place. This is obviously a manufacturing defect. Perhaps it was corrected or was only in some batches of the camera since it seems that not all A7s apparently have this defect, only a sufficient number to create a serious problem. Perhaps yours is okay, although you may want to test it out, since this defect has a real world consequence if you take a photo in low light with a timed shutter (I used 30 seconds).

Already did the test and no leak at all so must be a defective batch shipped worldwide....

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socode
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to GaryW, 6 months ago

GaryW wrote:

M Dennis Fern wrote:

Unfortunately, the problem is real..... Perhaps yours is okay, although you may want to test it out, since this defect has a real world consequence if you take a photo in low light with a timed shutter (I used 30 seconds).

This doesn't sound like a real-world problem, but a very contrived problem. When shooting low-light with a 30 second exposure, how often is a bright light shining directly at the mount (and not into the lens)?

I stopped following this when I find I could replicate similar behaviour on pretty much every other camera I could find. About three weeks ago, I joked that we would next be hearing that the weather sealing doesn't protect against immersion - now we do indeed have people speculating on the light leak reducing the efficacy of the weather sealing.

It's silly season I suppose.

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dprnik
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Flange mount on the A7 series is very poor quality, I can easily open the flange by tweaking the lens...

Sad Sony, really sad...

Can anybody else corroborate?

What flange? Are we talking about the bayonet mount?

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ncsakany
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Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?
In reply to _sem_, 6 months ago

_sem_ wrote:

It appears that certain lenses, particularly some of those with short flange distances, are likely to reflect the magnified pattern (maybe just a spectral part of it) back onto the sensor.

The RX1 sure doesn't seem to exhibit this aspect, and it also has a very short flange distance.

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_sem_
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Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?
In reply to ncsakany, 6 months ago

ncsakany wrote:

_sem_ wrote:

It appears that certain lenses, particularly some of those with short flange distances, are likely to reflect the magnified pattern (maybe just a spectral part of it) back onto the sensor.

The RX1 sure doesn't seem to exhibit this aspect, and it also has a very short flange distance.

Did you try with a LED flashlight beam pointed into the lens over a dark room? With most cameras & lenses one can find at least traces of this phenomenon when trying hard enough. The intensity varies a lot though, with many cameras it is mostly not objectionable. Related real-life circumstances are sun-through-the-leaves, some sunsets, stage lights and such - generally not things one'd shoot every day. And I think problems are more likely at wider angles.

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M Dennis Fern
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to dprnik, 6 months ago

A key question is whether the design of the camera lens mount is defective, so that all A7 and A7r cameras exhibit the light leak or whether there was a defectiive batch (or several defective batches). Putting it in a more practical context, if I can return the camera in an exchange, am I likely to just go to that substantial inconvenience and end up with a camera (after a delay of some weeks for the retailer to process the return) that is no better than the one I returned?  Has anyone carefully tested their camera and found no leak or exchanged their defective camera and received a good one?

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patriotspyke
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to M Dennis Fern, 6 months ago

I got my NEX6 and used a plasma beam powered by a 5000kw power supply, aimed straight into the lens, 225,600 iso, and guess what, I got the same result! totally lost as to when I would be shooting in those conditions though!

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stevo23
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Re: White orbs
In reply to captura, 6 months ago

captura wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

captura wrote:

=========================================

Re: White Orbs issue now on Sony A7?

- continued from "Problem with Sony A7, reflections on the sensor."

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53072031

Fuji X10 issue re-visited?

Light leaks I think is very minor and probably applies to most cameras at the extremes people are going to find it.....dark room, 30seconds and iso 25600????

I guess it would not have been as visible on cameras that do not go to iso 25600 in the past...I suspect other cameras will start seeing this soon....when people look.

I find the white orb thing interesting on the other hand.....I have no idea on what causes it but I do think some of what people are seeing (not all) is the light with the orb may not be in focus.

Orbs are VERY easy to see with the A7 EVF with (say) a fast 50mm lens as you look at a light and focus in on it....my Canon 50 1.2L either side of focus has HUGE white globs that greatly diminish with focus....

It became a HUGE issue with the X10 a couple of years ago, Neil. If you examine the examples here you may understand why it became such an issue. People demanding their money back from Fuji, etc. Then there was a firmware update which was supposed to fix it but didn't. Finally Fuji modified the sensor they were using and the orbs went away. I have one of the new ones...damn fine camera now!

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/03/20/fuji-usa-preps-for-white-orb-fix

http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/fuji-customers-satisfied-by-white-orbs-solution-1073933#null

We're not talking about Fuji-like orbs are we? I thought this "orb" was the extra reflections that appear in bright specular regions which incidentally I'm seeing quite often on the television these days.

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_sem_
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Re: White orbs
In reply to stevo23, 6 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

We're not talking about Fuji-like orbs are we? I thought this "orb" was the extra reflections that appear in bright specular regions which incidentally I'm seeing quite often on the television these days.

I don't think these are Fuji's White Orbs, because they are continuous white blobs not patterned, and probably result from sensor bleeding, taking place in the sensor.

These appear to be patterned flares, likely resulting from a reflection from an intense beam from the sensor, acting as a diffraction grating, back to the lens, and in turn back to the sensor from one of the lens element surfaces. Similar to known patterned flare issues with for instance the RX-100, E-PL2, Sigma DP, and the purple flare of the Panny 7-14mm lens on Oly cameras.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3257814

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2952515

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3263346

http://www.mu-43.com/showthread.php?t=33183

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3370371

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Alohaman
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to captura, 6 months ago

Now that Sony has admitted that a leak does exist, this is why I usually don't buy the first version of a new body.  I'll wait to at least version 2 before I buy.  Hopefully, by then many problems are fixed.

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ncsakany
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to Alohaman, 6 months ago

Alohaman wrote:

Now that Sony has admitted that a leak does exist, this is why I usually don't buy the first version of a new body. I'll wait to at least version 2 before I buy. Hopefully, by then many problems are fixed.

And you're going to miss at least one year's worth of real-life photos because of a visible light leak occurring when shooting 20 or 30 seconds at ISO 22k with the lens cap on? Yeah, this makes total sense.

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bigley Ling
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Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
In reply to ncsakany, 6 months ago

ncsakany wrote:

Alohaman wrote:

Now that Sony has admitted that a leak does exist, this is why I usually don't buy the first version of a new body. I'll wait to at least version 2 before I buy. Hopefully, by then many problems are fixed.

And you're going to miss at least one year's worth of real-life photos because of a visible light leak occurring when shooting 20 or 30 seconds at ISO 22k with the lens cap on? Yeah, this makes total sense.

I would suspect one would already have an older NEX or alpha camera that they could use while waiting for a second factory run of the A7(r). So, unless the A7(r) is the only camera in the world that can take real-life photos, I do not think waiting is a bad thing.

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stevo23
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Re: White orbs
In reply to _sem_, 6 months ago

_sem_ wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

We're not talking about Fuji-like orbs are we? I thought this "orb" was the extra reflections that appear in bright specular regions which incidentally I'm seeing quite often on the television these days.

I don't think these are Fuji's White Orbs, because they are continuous white blobs not patterned, and probably result from sensor bleeding, taking place in the sensor.

Oh - you mean that. In order not to confuse, these should be called something other than an orb. Heck if I know what to call it though.

But back to the Sony, I've noticed several flare like phenomena as well as the speckles around bright point sources. Each has a cause and each is likely a combination of things, not the least of which is the steep angle of incidence created by the very short register.

These appear to be patterned flares, likely resulting from a reflection from an intense beam from the sensor, acting as a diffraction grating, back to the lens, and in turn back to the sensor from one

I don't think it's this specifically. The quantity of them indicates a very short distance - in microns - between multiple interfaces. My guess is that there are 2-3 (or more) layers of various toppings on the sensor and the high incident angle of light coming into the sensor creates multiple/cascading reflections.

If you think about it, just three layers have a potential for 7 unique air-glass (or resin) interfaces where reflections can occur and each one can be re-reflected by the next. This would easily create the multiple speckled pattern we see. If you also include the rear lens element, then you have another 2 unique interfaces making it 9. This doesn't include micro lenses which add even more to the equation.

The higher the angle of incidence on each interface, the more likely reflections will be. SLR lenses with longer registration and therefore a lower incident angle seem to have less of this issue. I suspect that if we tried to put a lens closer to the sensor of a D800 with the mirror up, this would happen even there.

of the lens element surfaces. Similar to known patterned flare issues with for instance the RX-100, E-PL2, Sigma DP, and the purple flare of the Panny 7-14mm lens on Oly cameras.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3257814

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2952515

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3263346

http://www.mu-43.com/showthread.php?t=33183

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3370371

For the record:

- These patterned reflective spots appeared all over the place in the Olympic coverage, so this is not unique to the Sony A7 series.

- I see these at least once a week on some TV show, so similar things are going on out there.

- It's not the camera, it's not the lens. It's the combination of both.

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stevo23
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Re: no light leaks in my Nex 5r
In reply to bigley Ling, 6 months ago

bigley Ling wrote:

bigley Ling wrote:

ferrellmc wrote:

An easy fix for the light leak is to use a hair tie. Get the Goody ouchless no metal hair elastic. I wrote a short post on it with links and a before/after shot on my blog.

http://beforethecoffee.com/2014/03/03/sony-a7-a7r-light-leaks/

-- hide signature --

www.beforethecoffee.com

this is a good easy solution to the problem, until Sony recognizes it and applies warranty repair option. I wonder if the NEX series camera have any issues with light leakages like this!!

Just did a test with my NEX 5r, and the output is noisy, but there is no light leakage. This is with an EF-NEX speedbooster with an EF lens attached with lens cap on

It probably makes sense to put the same lens, booster and lens cap on the A7 and test the same way. In other words, reduce variables to one.

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ferrellmc
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Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)
In reply to GaryW, 6 months ago

GaryW wrote:

captura wrote:

0xDEADBEEF wrote:

I can reproduce pretty much the same image with my FE 55mm and shining my LED flashlight at the side of the mount while taking a long exposure photo with len cap on. It is little disturbing. ;(

-- hide signature --

-Dominik

Just don't take any long exposures, and you'll be fine.

Even if you take any long exposures, you'll be fine, as long as you don't shine a flashlight around the mount. This appears to be a completely artificial problem.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

Actually it's not only long exposures. I did a little test @ 1/60 sec ISO 800 with strobes in the room. The problem is not "artificial" but it's NOT something to panic over either. It's easily corrected with a hair tie. Go to the bottom of the post here and see what 1/60 sec ISO 800 looks like.

http://beforethecoffee.com/2014/03/03/sony-a7-a7r-light-leaks/

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www.beforethecoffee.com

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exdeejjjaaaa
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Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)
In reply to ferrellmc, 6 months ago

ferrellmc wrote:
It's easily corrected with a hair tie.

I cut a piece from a bike's inner rubber tube, sits much tigheter, looks much nicer

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sean lancaster
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Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)
In reply to ferrellmc, 6 months ago

ferrellmc wrote:

GaryW wrote:

captura wrote:

0xDEADBEEF wrote:

I can reproduce pretty much the same image with my FE 55mm and shining my LED flashlight at the side of the mount while taking a long exposure photo with len cap on. It is little disturbing. ;(

-- hide signature --

-Dominik

Just don't take any long exposures, and you'll be fine.

Even if you take any long exposures, you'll be fine, as long as you don't shine a flashlight around the mount. This appears to be a completely artificial problem.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

Actually it's not only long exposures. I did a little test @ 1/60 sec ISO 800 with strobes in the room. The problem is not "artificial" but it's NOT something to panic over either. It's easily corrected with a hair tie. Go to the bottom of the post here and see what 1/60 sec ISO 800 looks like.

http://beforethecoffee.com/2014/03/03/sony-a7-a7r-light-leaks/

Thanks.

I wasn't concerned when I thought this would only come up during long exposures. But now that I see it can happen with faster shutter speeds, I am considering sending my A7 back and waiting until Sony sells them fixed or provides a new model in the future. I still haven't sold my 6D. Hmmm.

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bigley Ling
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Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)
In reply to sean lancaster, 6 months ago

sean lancaster wrote:

ferrellmc wrote:

GaryW wrote:

captura wrote:

0xDEADBEEF wrote:

I can reproduce pretty much the same image with my FE 55mm and shining my LED flashlight at the side of the mount while taking a long exposure photo with len cap on. It is little disturbing. ;(

-- hide signature --

-Dominik

Just don't take any long exposures, and you'll be fine.

Even if you take any long exposures, you'll be fine, as long as you don't shine a flashlight around the mount. This appears to be a completely artificial problem.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

Actually it's not only long exposures. I did a little test @ 1/60 sec ISO 800 with strobes in the room. The problem is not "artificial" but it's NOT something to panic over either. It's easily corrected with a hair tie. Go to the bottom of the post here and see what 1/60 sec ISO 800 looks like.

http://beforethecoffee.com/2014/03/03/sony-a7-a7r-light-leaks/

Thanks.

I wasn't concerned when I thought this would only come up during long exposures. But now that I see it can happen with faster shutter speeds, I am considering sending my A7 back and waiting until Sony sells them fixed or provides a new model in the future. I still haven't sold my 6D. Hmmm.

Guess the hair tie, rubber band, or whatever mod job will be required to seal off that leak! Hope sony comes up with an fix soon. The longer they wait the more A7(r)s will need to be returned for warranty repairs, and this can be a very costly for Sony.

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exdeejjjaaaa
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Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)
In reply to bigley Ling, 6 months ago

bigley Ling wrote: Hope sony comes up with an fix soon.

and that most probably will be just a rubber band w/ a cut for lens release button...

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