Canon doesn't really care anymore...

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
David_C
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Canon doesn't really care anymore...
7 months ago

First, I own and use Canon,

per www.bythom.com analyses Canon's financial reports

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html

"Analysts who attended the financial results meeting in Tokyo and who cover Canon seem a bit non-plussed, with several remarking about how blasé Canon appears about the lack of unit volume growth in cameras. None of the countermeasures mentioned in their presentations really addresses the declining unit volumes in cameras. Instead Canon now is talking about more medical sales for imaging (last year it was more security camera sales as the growth prospect). Every indication is that Canon regards cameras as a fully mature market and is managing it as such."

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

For example, Canon could very simple add the magic lantern hacks to existing cameras, but they don't.

ESfishdoc
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

Really... you think they don't care?

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mailman88
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Re: WARNING....
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

.....Article by Thom, a Nikon homer. Thom is a paid contributor for Nikon.

Thom is like Fox News, you won't get a fair and balanced review from him unless its a Nikon.

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Jonathan Brady
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Canon cares about profit
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

Canon cares about profit; just like all businesses.

Fiji doesn't have THE LEADING presence in the industry so of course they're throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

Here's the understatement of the day: comparing the (visible) efforts of an industry leader to a (market share) bottom feeder is ridiculous AT BEST.

The bottom feeder is trying to find a way to earn the right to even think about profit while the industry leader is busy finding ways to maximize the profit they've been making for years. If you can't understand that, you have no business even thinking about the topic, much less discussing it.

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Zee Char
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Re: WARNING....
In reply to mailman88, 7 months ago

mailman88 wrote:

.....Article by Thom, a Nikon homer. Thom is a paid contributor for Nikon.

Thom is like Fox News, you won't get a fair and balanced review from him unless its a Nikon.

I thought Fox ruled 

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Jonathan Brady
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Re: WARNING....
In reply to Zee Char, 7 months ago

mailman88 wrote:

.....Article by Thom, a Nikon homer. Thom is a paid contributor for Nikon.

Thom is like Fox News, you won't get a fair and balanced review from him unless its a Nikon.

I thought Fox ruled 

It does if you agree with the information presented! LOL

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elfroggio
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

David_C wrote:

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

Incorrect! Fuji's camera sales are just under 2% of the company. Canon's doesn't break it the same way but Canon's imaging is around 40% of the company.

Canon is right now concentrating on the profitable cameras with "healthy growth" (Canon's wording) the 70d and the 5dMk3...

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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MarshallG
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

Right now, global camera sales are falling dramatically. Canon's camera business is one of the industry's strongest, however, they cannot guide investors to believe that camera sales will increase in 2014.

I think Canon's camera business is over $1 Billion annually, and it's safe to say that they will continue to invest and innovate to maintain it. Just because $1 Billion in sales will only be $1 Billion next year, it doesn't mean you quit and let it fall to zero.

I observe that Canon takes two to three years to produce an innovative new camera. When manufacturers "spin" a camera with minor feature updates each year, it subtracts from their resources to produce something really better, such as last year's SL-1 and 70D. On the other hand, Canon will probably introduce far fewer PowerShot cameras in 2014. The market just isn't there.

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Please forgive my typos. I often post from my phone, and it is difficult to edit mistakes after I post.

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unknown member
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

Canon is a person with feelings and has lost interest in its former first love, cameras.  You're reading the opinions of someone who makes a habit of saying things that are decidedly negative towards everything Canon does or says.  You need some context to understand that what you're reading is useless drivel.

David_C wrote:

First, I own and use Canon,

per www.bythom.com analyses Canon's financial reports

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html

"Analysts who attended the financial results meeting in Tokyo and who cover Canon seem a bit non-plussed, with several remarking about how blasé Canon appears about the lack of unit volume growth in cameras. None of the countermeasures mentioned in their presentations really addresses the declining unit volumes in cameras. Instead Canon now is talking about more medical sales for imaging (last year it was more security camera sales as the growth prospect). Every indication is that Canon regards cameras as a fully mature market and is managing it as such."

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

For example, Canon could very simple add the magic lantern hacks to existing cameras, but they don't.

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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to elfroggio, 7 months ago

elfroggio wrote:

David_C wrote:

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

Incorrect! Fuji's camera sales are just under 2% of the company. Canon's doesn't break it the same way but Canon's imaging is around 40% of the company.

Canon is right now concentrating on the profitable cameras with "healthy growth" (Canon's wording) the 70d and the 5dMk3...

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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People have a way of completely discounting cameras that they personally have no interest in if they don't include some new useless sensor (read:  everything Fuji does) that makes them think something neat and exciting is going on.  Just because some people didn't care about DP PDAF in the 70D or the size of the SL1 or the new market segement introduced by the G1 X they think that nobody should care about those advances.

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John_A_G
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to howardroark, 7 months ago

howardroark wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

David_C wrote:

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

Incorrect! Fuji's camera sales are just under 2% of the company. Canon's doesn't break it the same way but Canon's imaging is around 40% of the company.

Canon is right now concentrating on the profitable cameras with "healthy growth" (Canon's wording) the 70d and the 5dMk3...

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

-- hide signature --

Thanks
http://www.sritch.com
Street Photography: The Dogs of Vancouver, BC

People have a way of completely discounting cameras that they personally have no interest in if they don't include some new useless sensor (read: everything Fuji does) that makes them think something neat and exciting is going on. Just because some people didn't care about DP PDAF in the 70D or the size of the SL1 or the new market segement introduced by the G1 X they think that nobody should care about those advances.

Really, all the angst comes down to people that want a 7dII.  They're upset it hasn't been done.  Unlike Canon they don't seem to realize that high end APS-C is not the growth segment for ILCs.  Nothing in the "pro" column can ever offset the "con" of not having a 7dII because it's what THEY want.

There is always going to be minor squabling over which features are important in a camera body.  You could never get everyone to agree on that.

The original post absolutely had a sliver of truth - Canon is treating the high end APS-C market segment as a muture segment.  Absolutely.  So, they're putting their energy in other segments.  They recognize that video in ILCs is a must now so they need to solve their AF deficiencies for video.  Thus the 70d sensor design is an essential step.  If I was going to have issue with Canon it would be that their forray into mirrorless is tepid at best.  The 6d and 70d are important steps forward.  But, with their mirrorless it seems like they're just going through the motions right now without really embracing the potential growth market.  It seems as though they're hedging their bets just to make sure there really is going to be good growth opportunity there and if and when they come to that conclusion then they'll throw their R&D muscle behind it.

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unknown member
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to John_A_G, 7 months ago

John_A_G wrote:

howardroark wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

David_C wrote:

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

Incorrect! Fuji's camera sales are just under 2% of the company. Canon's doesn't break it the same way but Canon's imaging is around 40% of the company.

Canon is right now concentrating on the profitable cameras with "healthy growth" (Canon's wording) the 70d and the 5dMk3...

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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http://www.sritch.com
Street Photography: The Dogs of Vancouver, BC

People have a way of completely discounting cameras that they personally have no interest in if they don't include some new useless sensor (read: everything Fuji does) that makes them think something neat and exciting is going on. Just because some people didn't care about DP PDAF in the 70D or the size of the SL1 or the new market segement introduced by the G1 X they think that nobody should care about those advances.

Really, all the angst comes down to people that want a 7dII.  They're upset it hasn't been done.  Unlike Canon they don't seem to realize that high end APS-C is not the growth segment for ILCs.  Nothing in the "pro" column can ever offset the "con" of not having a 7dII because it's what THEY want.

There is always going to be minor squabling over which features are important in a camera body.  You could never get everyone to agree on that.

The original post absolutely had a sliver of truth - Canon is treating the high end APS-C market segment as a muture segment.  Absolutely.  So, they're putting their energy in other segments.  They recognize that video in ILCs is a must now so they need to solve their AF deficiencies for video.  Thus the 70d sensor design is an essential step.  If I was going to have issue with Canon it would be that their forray into mirrorless is tepid at best.  The 6d and 70d are important steps forward.  But, with their mirrorless it seems like they're just going through the motions right now without really embracing the potential growth market.  It seems as though they're hedging their bets just to make sure there really is going to be good growth opportunity there and if and when they come to that conclusion then they'll throw their R&D muscle behind it.

OR the high-end APS-C market actually IS mature and in order to maintain profitability and any kind of expectation of brisk sales is to only release the new model when the technology is not some small incremental change but instead something that will motivate people to upgrade or switch over and justify the huge development and tooling costs of a production line.

A lack of a new body in no way implies a lack of R&D or effort in that field because as technology matures it take more time and more money to develop the technology further, at least in a meaningful way.

I think you're wrong about why their ILC models haven't been spectacular also, and it's for the same reason I disagree with you about the DP PDAF being aimed directly at video and nothing else.  DP PDAF is another technology that can be implemented initially with somewhat limited functionality, but as their Digic 6 or 7 or later processers improve and become cheaper I think we'll see a huge shift in how that technology materializes in new products.  A 7DII with dual D6 processors could make for some amazing LiveView focus speeds, tracking, and novel executions.  It could even mean completely replacing the PDAF sensor with a DP PDAF sensor dedicated to focus and create a huge change in how one goes about choosing their AF point even when using the optical viewfinder.

The truth is, all this speculation, discontent, and inane opinions about what Canon cares about is going to prove to baseless because most consumers, and especially most forum members, have narrowminded conceptions of what is possible and what Canon could conceivably be developing.

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Flying Fish
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I completely disagree
In reply to mailman88, 7 months ago

What is your eviudence that Thom Hogan is paid by Nikon?  I don't think he is, but he certainly doesn't write like a Nikon homer.  I find his analyses thoughtful, insightful, and extremely balanced.

FF

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Flying Fish
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Thom Hogan's comments on Nikon hardly sound like a love-letter
In reply to Flying Fish, 7 months ago

"Still, the tough question for Nikon longer term is where does the growth come from? None of their businesses seem geared towards long-term growth, and we've all seen what the cost cutting has done to quality and service/support. The company is doing an incredible job of micromanaging the dollars and cents, but all of its business is in mature markets under stress. Note all those double-digit drops in unit volume in the camera business: that has to be corrected at some point."

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rrccad
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

David_C wrote:

First, I own and use Canon,

per www.bythom.com analyses Canon's financial reports

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html

"Analysts who attended the financial results meeting in Tokyo and who cover Canon seem a bit non-plussed, with several remarking about how blasé Canon appears about the lack of unit volume growth in cameras. None of the countermeasures mentioned in their presentations really addresses the declining unit volumes in cameras. Instead Canon now is talking about more medical sales for imaging (last year it was more security camera sales as the growth prospect). Every indication is that Canon regards cameras as a fully mature market and is managing it as such."

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

For example, Canon could very simple add the magic lantern hacks to existing cameras, but they don't.

actually .. that wouldn't be as simple as you think it would be.

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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

Three points strike me:

1) The unit volume sales of compacts -everyone knew this was coming re the smartphones etc replacing compacts, maybe Canon is not blasé, but understand the problem exactly.

Should they panic about volume sales in a dying market i.e. compacts?

2) Strong vs weak players point that Thom makes - two issues I have with this premise

a) Fuji and Ricoh both have a large company behind them, aside from their camera division, no? Surely from that viewpoint, diversity in which their non camera division is their main division and much larger than their camera division means that they can make changes to their camera division without too much headaches, until they find the right 'mix', no?

From this viewpoint, Nikon is actually the most exposed, relying fully on camera sales.

b) The inferred premise that with the market contracting, the 'strong' will automatically be fine and the weak left to fend for themselves.

The issue I think of with this, is that the market IS changing, not only in sales volume, but because of technology and demand choices, not *just* recessionary causes. By this I mean that in the middle and lower end areas mirrorless is gaining traction, not only from an ergonomic (smaller) cause, but mirrorless actually, aside from the viewfinder lag which seems to be now diminishing, have some advantages over mirror/ shutter mechanics such as faster (is there a limit? ) shutter i.e. fps, on sensor AF which assures accuracy that separate optical, paths have a limit on if not properly configured, those are obvious. Then there is video, a much faster fps and stream likely (thinking logically) more possible with mirrorless.

IF therefore, the market is changing for preferences, and the smaller players like Olympus, Fuji are producing for those changes in features and results, it will be the 'weak' taking from the 'strong'.

Not the strong sitting and watching the others scrabble for scraps as is inferred.

Thus, how and when the large two camera brands react and position themselves for technology changes and market demand is as critical to their survival as any other.

Remember Kodak?

Yes, Nikon and Canon have a strong 'secured market' in the Professional stream. Yes, that is obvious.

But, in the enthusiast area, the Fuji, Pentax and Olympus are gaining ground, at least in features, thus what distinguished the large two from the rest, is dwindling to only their Mount system and legacy lenses.

Yes that is a strong protection, but how long will it last?

In mirrorless products which one may argue is the future of interchangeable lens cameras, at least for anything less than Professional use (but it will likely take over there eventually also), Canon and Nikon currently lag behind significantly.

3) Where should the focus be? I disagree that Canon and Nikon should be focusing on volume sales *alone*. The issue is more than that and they should be focusing on providing for the future sales, volume sales is just a snapshot of the past year or two, future sales are not determined by that but by making cameras with specifications and practical use that satisfies the market users and demand, in future.

That requires producing cameras that lead technologically and deliver reliably.

One more point, post sales delivery is also important, to distinguish one's own brand from others, so after sales service and satisfaction is critical to maintain positive market visibility, otherwise people have no problem switching to other brands, what attraction is there to make them stay with one's own brand, otherwise?

Cheers.

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RedFox88
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that guy is a nikon writer
In reply to David_C, 7 months ago

You realize that writer, Thom, is a pro-nikon guy, right?  That's 100% what is writings are about the other bits are his negative opinions of other camera brands, although he also flames nikon at times too.

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RedFox88
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nikon pull-down
In reply to Flying Fish, 7 months ago

Um, did you miss the "nikon" pull down menu at the top of his web page?  He is a nikon supporter, a bit time one.Look at his list of "articles" - so many with nikon in the title.

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Flying Fish
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Re: nikon pull-down
In reply to RedFox88, 7 months ago

No, I didn't miss it.  He's always made clear he's a Nikon user and writes primarily about Nikon.  That doesn't mean he's a fanboy and I still don't think Nikon pays him.  Some of the things he writes about them, I wonder if they'd be willing to pay him NOT to write.  

FF

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peterharvey
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Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....
In reply to Bajerunner, 7 months ago

I notice mobile phones eating into compact cameras, so the S90 was a great innovation, but now after 2012, Canon must do more with their PowerShot S110 etc, and get a 13 mm sensor out like the Sony RX100.

Just how well are mirrorless ILC's doing? Growth, but not much? So that's probably why the two big boys Canon and Nikon leave the mirrorless ILC to the smaller players like Sony and Olympus etc, and also because they have to manufacture a whole new range of compact lenses to match the compact mirrorless ILC bodies, and the compact lenses are compromised in itself.

dSLR's still the real thing, and mobile phones can't do much to affect dSLR sales.

On the positive side, compacts and dSLR's are eroding the sales of compact camcorders, so 70D's dual pixel technology is great, and Nikon must really catch up...

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