Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
crudman
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

This guy is the biggest troll.

Seriously, looking at NEX 3N, the most basic entry level NEX and complaining about the lack of expensive and large high quality F1.8 or F2.8 zooms.

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Mike Fewster
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

You're right in a lot of ways...That's why I initially started out with a 100D in mind with EF-S lenses, but have wandered over here because I can't help the situation Canon is in with sensors. The toss up is size now. If I were to go up to a camera that size I could look at a GX7 or OMD-EM5 which would would end up being a bit more of an initial outlay, but far less restrictive long term. Or I could just jump ship to the dark side and buy a Nikon... But Nikon is evil

To understand the problem fully I'm probably trying to get a CSC to do what a baby DSLR will do and then there's too many trade offs. I should just be happy one way or the other and either just grab the twin kit NEX or buy a proper body.

OK, go with the 3n and twin lens kit and the keep your eye out for a Sigma 19 or 30mm e mount. These will give you IQ right up there with your baby dslr, in fact the 30mm is one of the sharpest lenses around compared to anything at all. They are both quite small and light and give excellent low light results. They were on special at about $100 each. Should you decide you like the Nex form/factor performance, you can, in time step up to the Nex 6 or 7 which have a better control set up, and those Sigma lenses will still perform beautifully for you. Should you decide Nex isn't for you, you wont drop too much on the resale.

If you do go Nex, check the camera guides by Gary Friedman. The Nex controls are fine but they are a bit different if you are coming from another system. His guides are inexpensive and downloadable and they will save you a lot of headscratching and possible frustration.

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hip2
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Given enough time and practice I could probably outgrow most things... I started out way back as a 14 year old kid a long time ago now. My dad gave me the training wheels in how to use Photoshop, I learned that inside and out within a year or two, until a couple years ago I had no idea of how to read light or adjust camera settings, I've out grown one of the better Panaleica cameras on the market with an excellent lens. There's really nothing left for me that I can "recover" or "fix" in post processing.

There's nothing technically flawed in my shooting, understanding a shot, or framing that I can learn about without getting a better camera at this point... The photos I produce will always be what they are because of the camera and not because of what I know/don't know at this point. There is also not much I can learn about depth of field at this point with a camera that really doesn't have any until you're 1 inch from a persons face...

That's what I also hate about being stuck with one lens. Buying a single lens means I get to the point where I am right now, just with a different camera and I haven't gained anything, just another trip sideways, not forwards.

It means buying a new body and not having lenses to go with a new body when I upgrade. It is now time I think to start investing in lenses rather than throwing away money going from one fixed lens camera to the next.

actually, with a compact, it's not that you don't have any, it's that you have too much depth of field...

if you want to effectively play with shallow depth of field like many of us here, then you will need *at least* APS-C and very fast lens.

the RX10 has a very fast lens, and you cover most of the usage that you might want, in a smallish package. having that kind of camera around is not a waste at all, believe me.

if you really want to start the very long journey of photography as a hobby, a passion even, with a mirrorless (or you should have posted this in the DSLR forums) you might want to consider the A7 and the A7R. impressive IQ in a small body, shallow depth of field that goes with full frame, and, with the adapters, you get to use almost every lens on the market at their expected focal length.

it has its flaws, but you will get to learn lots of things. fun times !

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to hip2, 9 months ago

If I really want to look at starting this as a serious hobby I should probably just go where everyone else is. That is A7, or Canikon, or Micro 4/3.... Chose a body and start acquiring some lenses. It's just for what and where it is there are few MILCs that get you there.

I'm not trolling, I'm looking at this straight up in terms of image quality. I may just have to look at a different mount if I really want to start buying serious lenses.

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hip2
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to tko, 9 months ago

tko wrote:

If you're doing landscapes you should use a tripod, and you don't need fast lenses.

If you want hand held and light weight, you don't go with fast (big) lenses.

If you're going a/small body, you don't load it up with lenses and adapters and tripods and junk, because that defeats the entire purpose

If you really want low light zoom, you go w/a Canon 5d. It's bigger, but you can't eat nothing but cake

I think there are some discriminations or prejudices here.

why don't we need fast lenses for landscapes ? as soon as people say "landscapes" everyone assumes that we want everything in focus having a shallow depth of field can bring some nice effects and moods to dull landscapes, IMHO.

and if we have a small body, having lots of accessories for it, even heavy and cumbersome accessories does not defeat the purpose. if you have a very nice body that takes great pictures, you can hand held with light lenses for casual pictures, or if you want only a light package, but you can also want to get serious sometimes and bring out the tripod, and big lenses with adapters for serious night sceneries, for example.

we are very lucky to live in the times that now allow us to have the choice with a single mirrorless body.

with adapters, you can bring any lens on almost any mirrorless body, the 5D is not needed or mandatory at all

incredible pictures come out of amazingly small bodies even at astonishingly high iso now, why would you limit yourself with such a narrow way of thinking ?

even more so with all the great software, if you allow yourself to go that to that length.

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hip2
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

If I really want to look at starting this as a serious hobby I should probably just go where everyone else is. That is A7, or Canikon, or Micro 4/3.... Chose a body and start acquiring some lenses. It's just for what and where it is there are few MILCs that get you there.

I'm not trolling, I'm looking at this straight up in terms of image quality. I may just have to look at a different mount if I really want to start buying serious lenses.

A7 and A7R are MILCs...

if you have a LX7 now, any MILC will do MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better. and you can fit any lens you want.

that's why people are beginning to think you are a troll :

you are on a compact right now, and you ask for impossible things while not knowing what you talk about (at least, that's the impression you send to others right now)

before saying that "few MILC get you there", you should try one seriously for a month at least.
if your mind is set on the false idea that "big DSLR=IQ, mirrorless=small&light", then you should rethink everything from scratch and go look at pictures from competent people here and on other image sharing sites.
if not, then just buy a big DSLR with a big fast lens, and be done with it.
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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to hip2, 9 months ago

That's not even close to my mindset... I just don't know 100% where I want to be and that's what is coming across. A full body camera isn't going to produce better quality images, not unless its also got a better sensor at the same time. Any MILC is of course going to have better IQ...

I can go from E mount to A mount with Sony as well as I can go from EF-M to EF-S or EF. I just don't know where I want to be. I may just Join the dark side and by a Sony, you guys have actually honestly been really helpful.

Not trying to come across here as a troll at all... I'm pretty much set on jumping ship, I just don't know which model exactly yet.

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David Wyman
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

"Not trying to come across here as a troll at all."

NOW you're trolling.

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hip2
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

That's not even close to my mindset... I just don't know 100% where I want to be and that's what is coming across. A full body camera isn't going to produce better quality images, not unless its also got a better sensor at the same time. Any MILC is of course going to have better IQ...

I can go from E mount to A mount with Sony as well as I can go from EF-M to EF-S or EF. I just don't know where I want to be. Join the dark side, by a Sony, you guys have actually honestly been really helpful.

Not trying to come across here as a troll at all...

you're taking the wrong way.

take it the opposite way : find the lens you want to use, and get the body that goes with it with your remaining money.

and again, with adapters on mirrorless, you don't care what mount you have. just focus on ease of you for your hands and habits.

earlier you said that you wanted something close to 24mm at f3.5, and 300mm on the tele end at f5.6.
that's exactly what all the 18-200 and/or 18-250 lenses from all manufacturers become after the crop factor on APS-C.

or get an A7 or A7R now, and wait for the 24-70 f4 and the 70-200 f4 that will be released in february and april this year. you can play with current lenses in the mean time.

the lense should always be at the start of your purchase decision. you will keep them for a long time.
bodies have become consumer goods that get replaced very quickly now.

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Lumixdude
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I'm going to put as objectively as I can
In reply to hip2, 9 months ago

My landscapes look like a Renoir painting if you actually do some serious noise reduction... not good enough... They have a complex going on, on the Panasonic compact forum called "view it at print size" but as soon as you notice the lack of detail in the trees, in the grass, etc... It doesn't matter what size you view it at... This is base ISO as well... So... yeah... this is why I'm over compacts. Notice the purple fringing as well? Yes? Yeah... You just can't compose anything more than a snapshot with one of these things.

Something to look at in the foreground, something in the midground to catch your eyes and the background... technically there is nothing wrong with this shot, but there's a lot left to be desired about the camera.

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hip2
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Re: I'm going to put as objectively as I can
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

My landscapes look like a Renoir painting if you actually do some serious noise reduction... not good enough... They have a complex going on, on the Panasonic compact forum called "view it at print size" but as soon as you notice the lack of detail in the trees, in the grass, etc... It doesn't matter what size you view it at... This is base ISO as well... So... yeah... this is why I'm over compacts. Notice the purple fringing as well? Yes? Yeah... You just can't compose anything more than a snapshot with one of these things.

if you want more resolution from your LX7, you can do multiple shots and stitch them together.
if you want extreme resolution, get a D800E or a A7R, and never look back

you still need the lens that goes with the body anyway.

any mirrorless camera will be better than your LX7, by far.
for now, you will never know what you need if you don't go for it and use a camera.

so i suggest that you take any mirrorless camera with any lens, and use it.

if you don't like how it handles, send it back, and try another one.

for your photography skills, i even suggest that you take only one prime and only one, and use that lens only. forget about zoooms for a while.
and by the way, you are ditching fixed lens cameras a little quickly, because, when in the field, having to change lenses on your ILC can be a pain, especially when you have lots of dust, sand or flying stuff around

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Lumixdude
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Re: I'm going to put as objectively as I can
In reply to hip2, 9 months ago

yep... that is a stitch and it's about as well as the LX7 can do... Dust and things like that on sensors... hmm... I'm aware of that... unfortunately everything is a compromise when you want to get better IQ. For the majority of my shots I'd think something like the 18-55 would be a cover all for what I wanted to do... Although 18-105 would be very nice and perhaps an ultra wide prime down the track to get below 28mm. The 55-210 is there as well. The 55-210 would cover the rest.

Thinking about this rationally the kit I would use is actually there...

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Mike Fewster
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to hip2, 9 months ago

hip2 wrote:

tko wrote:

If you're doing landscapes you should use a tripod, and you don't need fast lenses.

If you want hand held and light weight, you don't go with fast (big) lenses.

If you're going a/small body, you don't load it up with lenses and adapters and tripods and junk, because that defeats the entire purpose

If you really want low light zoom, you go w/a Canon 5d. It's bigger, but you can't eat nothing but cake

I think there are some discriminations or prejudices here.

why don't we need fast lenses for landscapes ? as soon as people say "landscapes" everyone assumes that we want everything in focus having a shallow depth of field can bring some nice effects and moods to dull landscapes, IMHO.

and if we have a small body, having lots of accessories for it, even heavy and cumbersome accessories does not defeat the purpose. if you have a very nice body that takes great pictures, you can hand held with light lenses for casual pictures, or if you want only a light package, but you can also want to get serious sometimes and bring out the tripod, and big lenses with adapters for serious night sceneries, for example.

we are very lucky to live in the times that now allow us to have the choice with a single mirrorless body.

with adapters, you can bring any lens on almost any mirrorless body, the 5D is not needed or mandatory at all

incredible pictures come out of amazingly small bodies even at astonishingly high iso now, why would you limit yourself with such a narrow way of thinking ?

even more so with all the great software, if you allow yourself to go that to that length.

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But just how narrow do you need?  I agree that narrow dof is desirable for composition. 2.8 is not regarded as a fast lens but with APS-C and FF sensors I'd have thought that wide open you get a narrow enough dof for most composition requirements. Shooting with smaller sensor cameras that argument may have some validity however. I reckon a better case can be made for built in nd filters on modern large sensor cameras than for fast lenses.

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What are you trolling about ?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Don't tell me about ISO, as I believe ISO bumping is an anachronism.

For what type of anachronic camera ?

I'm this close to actually buying an NEX, but then I look at things... I could handle the 18-105 at F/4.... that's quite a good aperture if you look at the long end, but where are your wide and fast wide angle lenses?

So where are the wide fast angle lenses for m43 ?
Pana 7-14F4 ?
Sony has SEL1018F4 - excellent and stabilized.

I want something in the vicinity of a 14-35

14-35 in m43 terms ? OK, in m43 you have 2.8 zooms, NEXes have F4 Zeiss, and 18105G, and NEX's ISO is one stop better than m43's, so..

or there abouts which would go down to something like F/1.8 but Sony doesn't offer anything here...

Nobody offers anything here ( in the 24-70 ff equivalent range )
The only 1.8 zoom is Sigma's 18-35 (not 14-35), not available for mirrorless... yet
and very big for mirrorless.

It's a shame really, the one lens I would use frequently for landscape photog and Sony doesn't have one?

for landscape photography you need depth of field, so you don't need a F1.8 zoom, but a very sharp and contrasty prime at F8-F11.. maybe a Zeiss Touit, or the SEL1018 ?

And, in the end, if you want ultimate quality go for PRIMES, Sony has excellent primes, including the unique stabilized SEL35F18 and SEL50F18, and there are also The Sigma triplet, the Samyang lenses.

So.. what are you talking about ?

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Lumixdude
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Re: What are you trolling about ?
In reply to 5nex7, 9 months ago

I wasn't thinking of all the implications going on here... not by a long way... Stuck in my own world from using compacts for too long.

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In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

I wasn't thinking of all the implications going on here... not by a long way... Stuck in my own world from using compacts for too long.

Yes, it is another world.

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Lumixdude
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Re: OK
In reply to 5nex7, 9 months ago

Yes it is perfectly acceptable, I'm looking at a lot of the Sony lenses now, just trying to work out which way to go.

The recently released $700 18-105 G looks good on paper but has lots of pincushion distortion like my LX7 which is corrected in camera, or in the Sony RAW converter. I guess this cannot be helped when you go from wide to long, but overall it offers faster aperture than anything else in that lens range across its zoom. It's also not that expensive really given its fast and it does the job of the 18-55 and the 28-70 lenses. It would pretty much cover everything I need to do, and did I say it's actually pretty fast? I can get a NEX7 body for $900 at the moment or the NEX5R for $399.

What makes the NEX7 body $600 better?

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secondclaw
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Maybe I can offer some perspective ... I am primarily a landscape photographer, and do shoot astro on a rare occasion.

1. Use a lightweight travel tripod. It won't encumber you at all if you travel light, and folds pretty well. Useless for stability when mounting Canon 5D2 and a big lens but its perfectly adequate for Nex/A7R. You can even get a gorillapod hybrid. It easily holds A7R and Canon 24-70 f2.8 II lens.

2. Shooting landscapes at 1.8 or any other wide open aperture is not a good idea unless you have some extraordinary lens. At wide open, lenses often suffer from increased color fringing, light falloff, and overall sharpness problems in corners. You really need to shoot landscapes at f/8 and higher (I do at f/11 or f/16, depending on light), to get corner to corner pin-sharp images, which I think are important for that type of photography. Wide-open landscape stuff is for desperation when you have to choice, but that will not be good use of equipment as a rule, only as an exception. If you're not interested in corner-to-corner sharpness, I'm not sure what advice I can give you in this area ...

3. Shooting starscapes, obviously getting brightest lens is ideal. But, you will also have to be on a tripod anyway at that point, so why not get a lens suited for this and attached it via adapter. Something like Canon or Sigma 24mm f1.4 - they're perfect for astro - wide and bright enough.

4. I'm with you on ISO - I will only bump ISO when I have to - and prefer to stay at 100 whenever I can. However that's only true for landscapes, where any increase of ISO can lead to loss of fine detail.

5. When I go on walkabouts, I use basic image-stabilized lenses in E-mount (i.e. 18-55, 18-200, etc), and will bump ISO up to 6400 without any reservation. Fine detail is not absolutely critical.

As a landscaper I see little benefit from a bright wide lens in E mount, however I can see its use in street, concert, and photojournalism work, where compromise in extreme detail is well worth it, and where speed is critical. In that case another camera system may be more appropriate.

I suppose you can get yourself a relatively bright rangefinder lens, but you may not get corners good enough for true landscape work. I use some M-Mount lenses when I need small size and where corner quality and extreme vignetting is irrelevant. But, bumping ISO at that point is just fine anyway. I have shot a 15mm rangefinder lens on A7R, and after correcting for color cast, it works, but only as an emergency.

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In reply to Lumixdude, 9 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Yes it is perfectly acceptable, I'm looking at a lot of the Sony lenses now, just trying to work out which way to go.

The recently released $700 18-105 G looks good on paper but has lots of pincushion distortion like my LX7 which is corrected in camera, or in the Sony RAW converter. I guess this cannot be helped when you go from wide to long, but overall it offers faster aperture than anything else in that lens range across its zoom. It's also not that expensive really given its fast and it does the job of the 18-55 and the 28-70 lenses. It would pretty much cover everything I need to do, and did I say it's actually pretty fast? I can get a NEX7 body for $900 at the moment or the NEX5R for $399.

What makes the NEX7 body $600 better?

I am sorry, I can not give you any optimized advice... I own, and I will further buy many cameras..lenses.. so I don't know how to chose a single, perfect one.

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hip2
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Mike Fewster, 9 months ago

Mike Fewster wrote:

hip2 wrote:

tko wrote:

If you're doing landscapes you should use a tripod, and you don't need fast lenses.

If you want hand held and light weight, you don't go with fast (big) lenses.

If you're going a/small body, you don't load it up with lenses and adapters and tripods and junk, because that defeats the entire purpose

If you really want low light zoom, you go w/a Canon 5d. It's bigger, but you can't eat nothing but cake

I think there are some discriminations or prejudices here.

why don't we need fast lenses for landscapes ? as soon as people say "landscapes" everyone assumes that we want everything in focus having a shallow depth of field can bring some nice effects and moods to dull landscapes, IMHO.

and if we have a small body, having lots of accessories for it, even heavy and cumbersome accessories does not defeat the purpose. if you have a very nice body that takes great pictures, you can hand held with light lenses for casual pictures, or if you want only a light package, but you can also want to get serious sometimes and bring out the tripod, and big lenses with adapters for serious night sceneries, for example.

we are very lucky to live in the times that now allow us to have the choice with a single mirrorless body.

with adapters, you can bring any lens on almost any mirrorless body, the 5D is not needed or mandatory at all

incredible pictures come out of amazingly small bodies even at astonishingly high iso now, why would you limit yourself with such a narrow way of thinking ?

even more so with all the great software, if you allow yourself to go that to that length.

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But just how narrow do you need? I agree that narrow dof is desirable for composition. 2.8 is not regarded as a fast lens but with APS-C and FF sensors I'd have thought that wide open you get a narrow enough dof for most composition requirements. Shooting with smaller sensor cameras that argument may have some validity however. I reckon a better case can be made for built in nd filters on modern large sensor cameras than for fast lenses.

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Mike Fewster
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it was only as an argument to defeat the mindset of everyone when they see "landscape" written and automatically associate it to big depth of field.

i don't know why you selected specifically 2.8 but f/2.8 is indeed not that fast, but it is the threshold at which people begin to think of a lens as fast enough because of standard kit zoom lenses, and also at which lenses tend to become noticeably bigger.
though if you meant it as an acceptable limit for narrow depth of field in landscapes, i couldn't tell you, it depends on the subject and setting, as you have guessed.

and yes, built-in nd filters could be a nice thing for us to look forward to, now that we have full frame and we know we won't get sensor stabilization soon the nd filter in the RX10 might be a market experiment for sony to check how we will react to it.

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