Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
quezra
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Not a lot hey, I've kinda wanted a super zoom for the longest time, I just didn't want to put up with an FZ150/FZ200 small sensor. It's just the lack of lenses and ending up outgrowing it that puts me off another fixed lens camera.

Your OP is about ultra wide angle zoom, no? And that is assuming you are not talking FF equiv rather APSc focal length?

To understand your problem, let us define it first: what would be the ideal focal length range (FF equiv) for a zoom and what would be fast enough aperture to go with it. Also, why do you think bumping up the ISO is a big deal... is it noise, detail, dynamic range?

Ideally... full frame, I guess 24mm on the wide end and I'd probably go out to 300mm on the long end eventually, something like an F/2.8 would be nice, although f/3.5 could suffice I guess... with something around F/5.6 on the long end if I'm looking at canon glass. That would give reasonable day time usage and it's not outrageous by any means... Probably something like a 24-70 and 70-300 in Canon as something to start with. I might look at a 16-30 after that... But a simple 2 lens kit would be all that I'd need to get started.

Ok, here is a breakdown of what you're asking for:

Canon 6D: $1,500

24-70/2.8: $2,300

70-300/4-5.6 (not the high end L version): $650

16-35/2.8: $1,700

You really want to spend $4,500-6,000 on camera gear when all you know about is compacts before that?

And you know how much that kit weighs right?

Honestly, the assumptions you're making are totally out of whack with large sensor cameras. Do yourself a favor and stick to the $500 option for now until you learn a little more about photography. Once you're familiar with the sensor size andd you can see how well you understand the trade-offs involved with fast lenses, you'll be in a much better position to actually judge what your needs really are. At the moment you've got way too many point-and-shoot assumptions in your head to actually objectively judge what you really need.

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to quezra, 8 months ago

Yes I know how much that kit weighs, I also know I've got a lot of assumptions in my head which is another reason why I'm not just gonna go out and buy that kit even if I could right now... I'm at the point with all of this where I just want to see what's up with a larger sensor camera and work from there with a midpoint option, I can build on... that to me is either a MILC or a µ4/3 option at this point. Either way I go it gives me something to build on... If I do decide to stay with an E mount kit I can get some A mount lenses down the track, if I went with a µ4/3 kit I'd have a good set of options as well.

This is where I'm at right now with being able to pick up an NEX kit for not much and see whether I do actually want to stay with it or not. I know exactly what you're saying which is why I'm in the position right now where I'm not just going to go out and spend $5000 on a kit. This is exactly why it comes across as frustrating to onlookers regarding where I'm at with my budget.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Yes I know how much that kit weighs, I also know I've got a lot of assumptions in my head which is another reason why I'm not just gonna go out and buy that kit even if I could right now... I'm at the point with all of this where I just want to see what's up with a larger sensor camera and work from there with a midpoint option, I can build on... that to me is either a MILC or a µ4/3 option at this point. Either way I go it gives me something to build on... If I do decide to stay with an E mount kit I can get some A mount lenses down the track, if I went with a µ4/3 kit I'd have a good set of options as well.

This is where I'm at right now with being able to pick up an NEX kit for not much and see whether I do actually want to stay with it or not. I know exactly what you're saying which is why I'm in the position right now where I'm not just going to go out and spend $5000 on a kit. This is exactly why it comes across as frustrating to onlookers regarding where I'm at with my budget.

Considering where you want to be, you would be exceeding $4k with m43 as well and perhaps still not manage 300mm equiv reach at anything faster than f/5.6.

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

And you get there eventually, you just have to chose a starting point. The good thing with E mount is that there isn't so many options to begin with. µ4/3 has a nice crop factor though...

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

And you get there eventually, you just have to chose a starting point. The good thing with E mount is that there isn't so many options to begin with. µ4/3 has a nice crop factor though...

Only if you value reach more than you value going wide. With the latter, smaller the sensor, higher the crop factor the more limited your options will be. This is why I prefer APSc, a good compromise.

I use 200mm f/2.8 as my telephoto lens on my NEX-6 (the best compromise of size, weight, AF speed, lens speed and reach). That is an E-mount advantage. It works like a 300mm lens and excellent for low light action photography.

But at the same time, I miss FF everytime I use one of my favorite lenses: Sony 135mm f/2.8 STF. It becomes a 200mm equiv lens, which makes it less useful as a portrait lens.

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Dr JLW
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Consider an Angenieux full frame 28 to 70 with a reducer.
It will cost $1200 to $1600 but be near your numbers and it's about f/2 and very sharp but manual focus.
That assumes someone is willing to sell theirs!

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Lumixdude
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You're right
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

And you get there eventually, you just have to chose a starting point. The good thing with E mount is that there isn't so many options to begin with. µ4/3 has a nice crop factor though...

Only if you value reach more than you value going wide. With the latter, smaller the sensor, higher the crop factor the more limited your options will be. This is why I prefer APSc, a good compromise.

I use 200mm f/2.8 as my telephoto lens on my NEX-6 (the best compromise of size, weight, AF speed, lens speed and reach). That is an E-mount advantage. It works like a 300mm lens and excellent for low light action photography.

But at the same time, I miss FF everytime I use one of my favorite lenses: Sony 135mm f/2.8 STF. It becomes a 200mm equiv lens, which makes it less useful as a portrait lens.

Where I'm at right now I've priced the 3NL twin kit and the twin 5RY kit to $500 and $700 respectively. with the 16-50 and 55-210, I haven't got a price on a NEX7 yet. I'm still not sure which way to go, or to just sit on it and see whether the NEX7 replacement drops the prices significantly.

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nevercat
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to DT200, 8 months ago

DT200 wrote:

kaiser soze wrote:

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system? Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

My NEX-7...provides a couple of very useful manual focusing aids that actually do help me to focus the camera. If I had a DSLR, I would not...

You would not need focus aids. You could focus in low light quickly and you could focus on moving objects. Sony does offer an adapter that fixes the focus deficiencies.

With a Leica RF lens, could I do without focussing aids, and would it focus on moving targets? And can you show me one camera that allways focus on the target I wat it to focus on? I'v used a lot of cameras, and talked to a lot of photographers and you know what? Every camera will focus every now and then on the wrong subject...

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nevercat
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to DT200, 8 months ago

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system?

Yes the AF is slower then that of a DSLR but it is working...

DPR said that now even Fujis focus faster making Sony one of the slowest on the market. Then there is the fact that no e-mount can focus on a fast moving subject. Alpha mount cameras can, and if you buy a special adapter it fixes the e-mount focus problem.

But Sony still focus very well, just as I said, not everybody needs very fast focus. Many people are happy with their very slow focussing smartphones, or P&Ss to take pictures of their kids sport game. And where does DPR say that the Fuji focus faster? It say: "If that is the case, , it's an impressive improvement over early X-series camera" No word about Sony and no claim about the focus speed at all... Reading what you want to read is different from reading what is written...

Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Why not get a DSLR? Wel try to put a DSLR with a zoom lens in your pocket...

What e-mount camera fits in a pocket with one of the $1000 FE lenses? You made my point that Sony needs to go back to smaller cheaper lenses that people actually will buy.

Again: reading what you want to read is different from reading what is written. Sony has some nice small lenses, not to expensive, that fits without adapter on the E-mount cameras and do focus there. Theser lenses are still in productiopn, so you can buy them new and then you can fit your camera in your pocket if you want (look at the 16-50mm, the 16mm and 20mm pancake, the 35mm 1.8 lens) And the 35 2.8 lens will fit in your pocket too...

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

The FF lenses are for their FF cameras and are usable on the APS cameras too.

But you said, they don't fit in a pocket, so you don't like them.

First I said nothiong about liking or disliking the FE lenses (please read my answer befor you post) I said you have a choice with the E-mount a choice you dan't have with a DSLR. A DSLR with the same chip size is always a lot larger and heavier then the E-mount cameras like the Nex 3/5/6/7. You don't have to go out with your $1000, larger lenses every time...

They cost $1000 and make your camera close to DSLR size, but with out the nicer grip and without the better focus system...and you end up paying more for getting so much less.

In fact they don't make your camera DSLR size. The DSLR body will allways be bigger and heavier then the comparable E-mount body! Remember the camera you have with you takes better pictures then the camera you left at home...

Those expensive lenses are expensive for one reason: QUALITY! You pay for the high quality, in fact according to DXO the Sony lens is better then the more expensive Nikon 58 f1.4 lens and it is lighter too, and in most ways smaller... So

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Mike Fewster
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Re: I didnt say all
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

NB:I didn't say all... those are your words... What I stated was the more i read about this, the more I realise Fuji and Sony have AF issues with MILCs as well. That statement does not infer ALL cameras they make do, or ALL MILCs do, it just seems you here a lot less about the problem from other manufacturers than you do about Canon. Although, there are a lot of people giving Canon a hard time in general right now...

-There are AF focus issues with all cameras and the af issues with Sony have been well and truly discussed on this and the Sony SLR forum. I don't really follow Canon news, I know their top end cameras had issues tracking fast moving stuff (about 5 years ago) that resulted in many Canon sports specialist users going Nikon who apparently did this better. I was under the impression that Canon has fixed the issue. Apart from that, the only Canon focus issues I have heard of are the same limitations on pdaf and cdaf that everyone has.

I think you are making the mistake of trying to find one camera that will do everything for you. It doesn't exist. I solved (well. for the moment) my problems by now thinking of cameras as disposable consumer items that will al rapidly become outdated. I now have several cameras and simply pick up off the shelf the one I want for a particular job. I keep the prices in check by buying second hand soon after the model I buy has a new model released. That way there has also been lots of time for everyone to have thoroughly posted/sorted out/evaluated before I make my decision.

pS. I solve my af issues by only using mf (and this is very good on most Sonys) or centre spot auto focus (which is always quite fast, it is the other focus modes that get iffy. I then just recompose. I got used to this mode of focus years ago with film and and centre prism view rf and it is still ridiculously easy and fast)
Mike Fewster
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DT200
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to nevercat, 8 months ago

nevercat wrote:

DT200 wrote:

kaiser soze wrote:

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system? Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

My NEX-7...provides a couple of very useful manual focusing aids that actually do help me to focus the camera. If I had a DSLR, I would not...

You would not need focus aids. You could focus in low light quickly and you could focus on moving objects. Sony does offer an adapter that fixes the focus deficiencies.

... Every camera will focus every now and then on the wrong subject...

There is a difference between missing "every now and then" and "ALWAYS".  Can you imagine a sports photographer trying to make a living with an A7?  Let's see how many E-mount cameras are on the sidelines this Sunday.

I am sure with some manual focus aids they would feel better.

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pako
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Don't tell me about ISO, as I believe ISO bumping is an anachronism. I'm this close to actually buying an NEX, but then I look at things... I could handle the 18-105 at F/4.... that's quite a good aperture if you look at the long end, but where are your wide and fast wide angle lenses? I want something in the vicinity of a 14-35 or there abouts which would go down to something like F/1.8 but Sony doesn't offer anything here... It's a shame really, the one lens I would use frequently for landscape photog and Sony doesn't have one?

If you are looking for a Sigma-like lens, why don't you just buy the Sigma one?

I don't think we'll see any wide aperture zoom soon, since apparently Sony is looking to fill other gaps first

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pako
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

If you are looking for a Sigma-like lens, why don't you just buy the Sigma one?

I don't think we'll see any wide aperture zoom soon, since apparently Sony is looking to fill other gaps first

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JamieTux
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Hey EG
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

Which 200 f2.8 are you using? I've never come across one in a mount

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nevercat
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to DT200, 8 months ago

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

DT200 wrote:

kaiser soze wrote:

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system? Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

My NEX-7...provides a couple of very useful manual focusing aids that actually do help me to focus the camera. If I had a DSLR, I would not...

You would not need focus aids. You could focus in low light quickly and you could focus on moving objects. Sony does offer an adapter that fixes the focus deficiencies.

... Every camera will focus every now and then on the wrong subject...

There is a difference between missing "every now and then" and "ALWAYS".

And the E-mount cameras ar not ALWAYS missing the focus, I have thousandsa of pictures to proof that. Most pictures I take ar in focus and focused on the spot I wanted it!

Can you imagine a sports photographer trying to make a living with an A7?

You are twisting my words! I never said that the A7 is good for a sports photographer! I said that most photographers do not need the super fast autofocus. That most pictures of sport games of kids were taken with the super slow focussing mobile phones and P&S cameras. A professional will not use a tool that is not fit for the job, you won't see him with a Rebel or a D3000 either. Those DSLRs are not good for the job too!

Let's see how many E-mount cameras are on the sidelines this Sunday.

At the moment there are none professional sports photographers who use a mirrorless camera, not even the ones that are focussing the fastest of all. The all rely on the equeptment made for that purpose. Most of us are not willing to pay the price for those cameras. The A7(r) is priced in a way that we normal people can buy it and get excelent pictures of most of the things we take pictures of. The pictures will be sharp, and with very nice collors....

I am sure with some manual focus aids they would feel better.

What ever you say!

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Hey EG
In reply to JamieTux, 8 months ago

Which 200 f2.8 are you using? I've never come across one in a mount

Minolta 200/2.8 G APO HS. I wish Sony would produce it on either mount (definitely on E-mount when the AF can take advantage of it.

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hip2
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Not a lot hey, I've kinda wanted a super zoom for the longest time, I just didn't want to put up with an FZ150/FZ200 small sensor. It's just the lack of lenses and ending up outgrowing it that puts me off another fixed lens camera.

you think you can outgrow a camera like the RX10 that easily ? that's pretty impressive confidence, not really backed up by all you're saying

from you detailed about the focal range you wanted, maybe your perfect lens should be the 18-200 or 18-250 from any manufacturer for APS-C, you can find lots of these for almost all bodies/mounts. you only need to select a body that you feel comfortable using after that.

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to hip2, 8 months ago

Given enough time and practice I could probably outgrow most things... I started out way back as a 14 year old kid a long time ago now. My dad gave me the training wheels in how to use Photoshop, I learned that inside and out within a year or two, until a couple years ago I had no idea of how to read light or adjust camera settings, I've out grown one of the better Panaleica cameras on the market with an excellent lens. There's really nothing left for me that I can "recover" or "fix" in post processing.

There's nothing technically flawed in my shooting, understanding a shot, or framing that I can learn about without getting a better camera at this point... The photos I produce will always be what they are because of the camera and not because of what I know/don't know at this point. There is also not much I can learn about depth of field at this point with a camera that really doesn't have any until you're 1 inch from a persons face...

That's what I also hate about being stuck with one lens. Buying a single lens means I get to the point where I am right now, just with a different camera and I haven't gained anything, just another trip sideways, not forwards.

It means buying a new body and not having lenses to go with a new body when I upgrade. It is now time I think to start investing in lenses rather than throwing away money going from one fixed lens camera to the next.

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tko
tko
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

If you're doing landscapes you should use a tripod, and you don't need fast lenses.

If you want hand held and light weight, you don't go with fast (big) lenses.

If you're going a/small body, you don't load it up with lenses and adapters and tripods and junk, because that defeats the entire purpose

If you really want low light zoom, you go w/a Canon 5d. It's bigger, but you can't eat nothing but cake

Lumixdude wrote:

Don't tell me about ISO, as I believe ISO bumping is an anachronism. I'm this close to actually buying an NEX, but then I look at things... I could handle the 18-105 at F/4.... that's quite a good aperture if you look at the long end, but where are your wide and fast wide angle lenses? I want something in the vicinity of a 14-35 or there abouts which would go down to something like F/1.8 but Sony doesn't offer anything here... It's a shame really, the one lens I would use frequently for landscape photog and Sony doesn't have one?

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to tko, 8 months ago

You're right in a lot of ways...That's why I initially started out with a 100D in mind with EF-S lenses, but have wandered over here because I can't help the situation Canon is in with sensors. The toss up is size now. If I were to go up to a camera that size I could look at a GX7 or OMD-EM5 which would would end up being a bit more of an initial outlay, but far less restrictive long term. Or I could just jump ship to the dark side and buy a Nikon... But Nikon is evil

To understand the problem fully I'm probably trying to get a CSC to do what a baby DSLR will do and then there's too many trade offs. I should just be happy one way or the other and either just grab the twin kit NEX or buy a proper body.

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