Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
kaiser soze
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Mike Fewster wrote:

I think you are still blinkeredxperience. You need to do some more exploring re just what the larger sensors and the Sony senor performance is capable of. Even the small sensor Sonys as on the RX10 and RX100 have changed the game. In fact, I'd argue now that the real need on the Sonys is for built in ND filters rather than faster lenses. Sony has added one to the rx10 and Ild hope to see this on all future models.

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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

I probably am a little blinkered by my past experiences and now I want to fix that. It seems all of these cameras be it Eos M or Fuji X mount have auto focus related issues, it does beg the question of what is going on here...

i don't agree with how you put it. There are pros and cons with each different approach to focusing. There are many situations where AF just doesn't work at all, for any camera, and where the manual focusing aids make the difference. I really like both of the manual focusing aids in the NEX-7. They allow me to take manually focused pictures with much greater ease and focus accuracy than I would have with most other cameras. People who complain about focusing are mostly people who have never really learned to focus a camera and who don't understand why the camera can't know what it is that they want to focus on. In many, many situations, the need to get adequate depth of field means that you can't even use the maximum aperture of the lens anyway, although it is possible to allow the camera to use the maximum aperture while focusing and then stop it down, but situations where this will help the camera to be able to focus are not common, and this is very cumbersome to do when using live preview to check the depth of field.

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Lumixdude
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to kaiser soze, 8 months ago

Of course there are many different means and ways of focusing and manual focus has its place as well. I just mean to say, the more I discuss this it seems Canon cops the short end of the stick when both Fuji and Sony have had auto focus issues as well. Yet, strangely all you ever here about is "the poor EOS M owners that cannot get their camera to focus."

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nevercat
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to DT200, 8 months ago

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system?

First the E-mount cameras all have working AF systems, so do not spread missinformation about that. Yes the AF is slower then that of a DSLR but it is working and you know what? For most applications it is more then fast enough. Only in tracking (for sports etc) it is lacking...

Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Why not get a DSLR? Wel try to put a DSLR with a zoom lens in your pocket, or take it with you for a day hiking. In the end I know you will like the smaller mirrorless cameras over any DSLR. With an E-mount camera you can choose if you want a small and light package or a larger package. With a DSLR it is always the larger package you have.

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

The FF lenses are for their FF cameras and are usable on the APS cameras too. The two Zeiss primes are tested as very good lenses, not cheap, but not more expensive then lenses in the same quality lenses of other brands. The 55 mm is often favorably compared with the $4000,-- Zeiss Otus lens. So in fact it is a bargain. The 35 2.8 lens is opticly very good and is not that large at all... So lets keep to the facts shall we?

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kaiser soze
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to DT200, 8 months ago

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system? Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

My NEX-7 has a focusing system that works amazingly well. In fact, even the autofocus works very well, but more importantly, it provides a couple of very useful manual focusing aids that actually do help me to focus the camera. If I had a DSLR, I would not have the same focusing aids, and would have greater difficulty focusing the camera. Of course I could try and use the AF, but there is no way that any camera can know what I want to focus on or decide intelligently on depth of field. And the AF in a DSLR isn't really going to work significantly better that the AF on a good mirrorless camera. The noteworthy difference is that it might be faster, but not by a lot and not even this is guaranteed.

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Lumixdude
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to nevercat, 8 months ago

And shooting style, the only thing I've ever had focus issues on is my dogs playing in the yard. I don't normally even shoot that style, but what do you know... you set the shutter up right and you no longer have that issue.

I predominately shoot landscape, and street photography, not a whole lot of that requires fast auto focus unless I'm out shooting at night.

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kaiser soze
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Mike Fewster, 8 months ago

Mike Fewster wrote:

You are right about the af being slower. That's because all mirrorless cameras have to use cdaf rather than pdaf to do the autofocussing (it's the same for all brands). That is why Sony invented the slt range of mirrorless cameras so they could use the fast pdaf focussing. On the other hand, all pdaf cameras (of all brands) are prone to need calibration to remove the built in errors that pdaf can give. Which is why almost all (certainly all the more expensive) dslr cameras of all brands have microfocus adjustment. cdaf cameras (of all brands) can't have this error.

Recently a new wave of mirrorless cameras have emerged that have sacrificed some of the pixels on the sensor to get faster focussing. Some, but not all, Sony models now have this but the Sony af speeds aren't as good as some of the others now available. pdaf cameras are still the fastest. You can get pdaf on the Sony interchangeable lens compact cameras (the Nex series) by using Sony a mount lenses and a special adapter- The Sony Nex cameras are unique in having this adapter which allows pdaf focussing however the price for this is an expensive, largish, adapter and larger lenses
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

Mike, thanks for this clear statement. I will add several things. First, the actual advantage in focusing speed is not absolute, and even though SOME mirrorless cameras focus more slowly than SOME dslrs, the difference that is real is likely not huge and only matter in very specific situations. On top of that, AF is not a panacea. No camera knows what I want to focus on, or how much depth-of-field I want. There are lots of camera enthusiasts nowadays who have never even used a camera that didn't have AF, and who never learned how to focus a camera. It is now wonder then that they have no appreciation for the very useful manual focusing aids that you get with the likes of the NEX-7, which would not work without the electronic viewfinder. If I were considering a camera with a mirror, I would most likely get one of the better SLT cameras. You get the PDAF, plus the manual focusing aids, which gives you the best of both worlds, and you only lose 1/3 stop, which isn't much at all, and for someone who wants a bigger camera and bigger lens, you can make up for the 1/3 stop loss by using a faster lens.

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Lumixdude
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to kaiser soze, 8 months ago

I certainly do know how to manual focus, it's just temperamental on the LX7 as it is on most compacts when you don't actually have a focus ring. My kingdom for a focus ring.

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kaiser soze
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Of course there are many different means and ways of focusing and manual focus has its place as well. I just mean to say, the more I discuss this it seems Canon cops the short end of the stick when both Fuji and Sony have had auto focus issues as well. Yet, strangely all you ever here about is "the poor EOS M owners that cannot get their camera to focus."

I think that you tend to generalize to a much, much greater extent than anyone should, and reduce a complex set of tradeoffs to something to simple to remain honest to the question. Any general statement to the effect that all of the NEX cameras have "focusing issues" would be utterly disingenuous. The fact that in specific scenarios of using AF there are other cameras that will likely be somewhat faster does not render moot the fact that the NEX has extremely good manual focusing aids that no camera with optical view finder has. Most of the statements you have made belie this.

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Lumixdude
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I didnt say all
In reply to kaiser soze, 8 months ago

NB:I didn't say all... those are your words... What I stated was the more i read about this, the more I realise Fuji and Sony have AF issues with MILCs as well. That statement does not infer ALL cameras they make do, or ALL MILCs do, it just seems you here a lot less about the problem from other manufacturers than you do about Canon. Although, there are a lot of people giving Canon a hard time in general right now...

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

When Sony announced SLT for A-mount in 2010, the a33 and a55 were very well received. I picked up the latter. Sony was also selling a55's twin a580 which was a DSLR. One of the benefits Sony brought up with SLT was reduced size and weight. And what did Sony buyers say? The a55 is too small and light with bigger A-mount lens (a55 is about the same height and weight as a7 but thicker). Sony responded with larger and heavier bodies with subsequent releases (a65 and a77 were the next two, comparable to a580 in size and weight).

Now we are going to a full circle on E-mount. We are demanding larger and heavier lenses. But note how people dismiss even 70-200/4 which is significantly smaller and lighter than a 70-200/2.8 (much less 70-400) would be. And a7 is actually substantially larger/heavier than the APSc bodies too.

So in a way, we are going to demand that E-mount be larger and heavier, or that Sony should create two models for each series, one small (NEX-3N) and one bigger (a3000... even though a3000 is actually very light due mostly air space).

If size is non issue, or becomes a non issue, I already have used Sony's solution: EA adapters. When I need speedier lenses and/or zoom, I use EA2 and A-mount but revert to smaller form and function with primes otherwise. Likes of Samsung and Fuji don't have this option. For that matter, Samsung's 16-50/2-2.8 is bigger, 2x more expensive and heavier than my Sony DT 16-50/2.8 SSM a lens that can be used on NEX-6.

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DT200
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to nevercat, 8 months ago

nevercat wrote:

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system?

Yes the AF is slower then that of a DSLR but it is working...

DPR said that now even Fujis focus faster making Sony one of the slowest on the market.  Then there is the fact that no e-mount can focus on a fast moving subject.  Alpha mount cameras can, and if you buy a special adapter it fixes the e-mount focus problem.

Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Why not get a DSLR? Wel try to put a DSLR with a zoom lens in your pocket...

What e-mount camera fits in a pocket with one of the $1000 FE lenses?  You made my point that Sony needs to go back to smaller cheaper lenses that people actually will buy.

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

The FF lenses are for their FF cameras and are usable on the APS cameras too.

But you said, they don't fit in a pocket, so you don't like them.  They cost $1000 and make your camera close to DSLR size, but with out the nicer grip and without the better focus system...and you end up paying more for getting so much less.

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DT200
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Re: You nailed the problem with Sony right now.
In reply to kaiser soze, 8 months ago

kaiser soze wrote:

DT200 wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Everybody wants a... lens, until they see the price and size of it.

Look at the latest e-mount lenses. The prices are all over $1000 and the sizes are often bigger than their DLSR FF counterparts.

Who want to put a larger lens on a small body making is almost the same size as DSLR that has a working focus system? Why not get the DSLR that can focus and that has real grip? You will even save money do those insane Sony lens prices.

Sony needs to go back to the APS size lenses and prices.

My NEX-7...provides a couple of very useful manual focusing aids that actually do help me to focus the camera. If I had a DSLR, I would not...

You would not need focus aids.   You could focus in low light quickly and you could focus on moving objects.   Sony does offer an adapter that fixes the focus deficiencies.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

I do, do a bit of astro stuff I guess in the end it just means a longer exposure and a more laborious process is necessary to achieve the same results counting in minutes rather than seconds before you can take the next shot like this one of the Southern Cross

And you are better served with a larger sensor but an f/2.8 or even f/4 lens than a tiny sensor with 1.4. The shot you posted has very heavy noise processing. What were your settings?

Try an E-mount camera with either pancake lens (I have 20/2.8). You could even use ECU1 UW converter on either (turns 16mm into effective 12mm and 20mm into effective 15mm).

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: With Sigma
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

No one really...

And therein lies the answer, not because it can't be done but it will be huge and priced out of reach. So, you get 2.8 zooms when size is less of a concern and f/4 zooms when size is a consideration, or go with primes which are better options anyway (Samyang makes a 16mm f/2).

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

There's actually no noise processing in that shot... I've just raised the brightness/contrast actually it was f/1.4, ISO80 and 30 seconds exposure. The fact you can process a shot like this in 30 seconds should speak volumes if you're into this kind of photography that is. to take the same shot at f/6 would take 3 or 4 minutes.

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hip2
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

I really like the RX100, inherently it has the same problem as the LX7 though, not enough zoom. I'm wanting 200mm+ and its not happening. I've been feeling sensor envy a lot lately as well... Don't get me wrong these cameras do everything and for the most part they do it well, I do want some crisper images to look at though. I've been putting a lot more time and effort into my photography lately and I would like to start actually getting my name out there a bit more than it is than just on my web presence on my folio and on my blog:

portfolio.roumelio.com

blog.roumelio.com

The thing is I know I could be getting better keepers than I am right now if I actually had a better camera.

the RX10... 200mm f2 stabilized. why are you even hesitating ?

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to hip2, 8 months ago

Not a lot hey, I've kinda wanted a super zoom for the longest time, I just didn't want to put up with an FZ150/FZ200 small sensor. It's just the lack of lenses and ending up outgrowing it that puts me off another fixed lens camera.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Not a lot hey, I've kinda wanted a super zoom for the longest time, I just didn't want to put up with an FZ150/FZ200 small sensor. It's just the lack of lenses and ending up outgrowing it that puts me off another fixed lens camera.

Your OP is about ultra wide angle zoom, no? And that is assuming you are not talking FF equiv rather APSc focal length?

To understand your problem, let us define it first: what would be the ideal focal length range (FF equiv) for a zoom and what would be fast enough aperture to go with it. Also, why do you think bumping up the ISO is a big deal... is it noise, detail, dynamic range?

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Not a lot hey, I've kinda wanted a super zoom for the longest time, I just didn't want to put up with an FZ150/FZ200 small sensor. It's just the lack of lenses and ending up outgrowing it that puts me off another fixed lens camera.

Your OP is about ultra wide angle zoom, no? And that is assuming you are not talking FF equiv rather APSc focal length?

To understand your problem, let us define it first: what would be the ideal focal length range (FF equiv) for a zoom and what would be fast enough aperture to go with it. Also, why do you think bumping up the ISO is a big deal... is it noise, detail, dynamic range?

Ideally... full frame, I guess 24mm on the wide end and I'd probably go out to 300mm on the long end eventually, something like an F/2.8 would be nice, although f/3.5 could suffice I guess... with something around F/5.6 on the long end if I'm looking at canon glass. That would give reasonable day time usage and it's not outrageous by any means... Probably something like a 24-70 and 70-300 in Canon as something to start with. I might look at a 16-30 after that... But a simple 2 lens kit would be all that I'd need to get started.

As it is, I'm out at 170mm with my LX7 and a converter and it's honestly not quite enough for me. ISO bumping is a big deal on the factor of noise and detail, I'm trying to get away here from the noise and detail smearing issues that come with a compact and hopefully not recreate them on a larger sensor camera. I was looking at like for like light settings between the LX7 and GM1 kit lens the other night, lets just say the GM1 leaves a lot to be desired at base ISO with the same lighting conditions on the kit lens.

I'm looking at it now from the perspective of what I can get vs. a midpoint DSLR such as a D5300 and for what I do sensor wise the Sony E Mount kit stacks up OK as does the Fuji X, I'm aware I'd be giving up a fair amount of AF speed and low light sensitivity, I'm OK with that and using a tripod if I have to in order to make a shot work...

The thing is if I bought the twin kit for an NEX now I'd probably have enough money on the side to look at a fast and wide lens... that's the position, particularly if you look at the midpoint of the NEX range and there's honestly not a lot there yet... Maybe I should just sit on that and have a think about it and just get the twin kit.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Not a lot hey, I've kinda wanted a super zoom for the longest time, I just didn't want to put up with an FZ150/FZ200 small sensor. It's just the lack of lenses and ending up outgrowing it that puts me off another fixed lens camera.

Your OP is about ultra wide angle zoom, no? And that is assuming you are not talking FF equiv rather APSc focal length?

To understand your problem, let us define it first: what would be the ideal focal length range (FF equiv) for a zoom and what would be fast enough aperture to go with it. Also, why do you think bumping up the ISO is a big deal... is it noise, detail, dynamic range?

Ideally... full frame, I guess 24mm on the wide end and I'd probably go out to 300mm on the long end eventually, something like an F/2.8 would be nice, although f/3.5 could suffice I guess... with something around F/5.6 on the long end if I'm looking at canon glass. That would give reasonable day time usage and it's not outrageous by any means... Probably something like a 24-70 and 70-300 in Canon as something to start with. I might look at a 16-30 after that... But a simple 2 lens kit would be all that I'd need to get started.

As it is, I'm out at 170mm with my LX7 and a converter and it's honestly not quite enough for me. ISO bumping is a big deal on the factor of noise and detail, I'm trying to get away here from the noise and detail smearing issues that come with a compact and hopefully not recreate them on a larger sensor camera. I was looking at like for like light settings between the LX7 and GM1 kit lens the other night, lets just say the GM1 leaves a lot to be desired at base ISO with the same lighting conditions on the kit lens.

I'm looking at it now from the perspective of what I can get vs. a midpoint DSLR such as a D5300 and for what I do sensor wise the Sony E Mount kit stacks up OK as does the Fuji X, I'm aware I'd be giving up a fair amount of AF speed and low light sensitivity, I'm OK with that and using a tripod if I have to in order to make a shot work...

The thing is if I bought the twin kit for an NEX now I'd probably have enough money on the side to look at a fast and wide lens... that's the position, particularly if you look at the midpoint of the NEX range and there's honestly not a lot there yet... Maybe I should just sit on that and have a think about it and just get the twin kit.

Sony E 10-18mm f/4 OSS
Sony E 16-70mm f/4 OSS ZA
Sony FE 70-200mm f/4 OSS G

Any of the following bodies per taste/budget:
a3000, NEX-3N, a5000, NEX-5T, NEX-6 or NEX-7.

You cover: 15mm to 300mm FF equiv at f/4 with optical stabilization throughout. The entire gear weighing 3.5 to 4lb.

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