Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
OpticsEngineer
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to viking79, 6 months ago

"But is it really? Look how many people adapt large lenses. I wouldn't buy a 2.8 zoom for a NEX, but if they came out with a slightly larger camera I would consider it (like say Fuji X-T1 or Samsung NX30). Right now Fuji has 16-55mm f/2.8"

Very good points. But despite the fact that some people put large lenses on their NEX, I think Sony marketing people sees that as kind of an aberrant behavior.  (aberrant in the sense they are a small and different group than Sony expects will buy the fast majority of NEX cameras.)   Sony provides the LEA2 LEA4 adaptors as option to saves some sales that might otherwise go to their competitors. But I think when Sony market people laid out the camera strategy for E-mount/NEX, they targeted small size/light weight and did not put any fast E-mount zooms on the lens roadmap. At this point in time, I believe they feel the people who want the fast zooms on NEX are taken care of with the adaptors and there is no need to make a native fast zoom E-mount.

I think the situation is a bit different with Fuji not having the adaptor options but I am not up on their lens line up. Up until now I have not even considered Fuji large sensors rangefinder style cameras because of the reputation for slow AF. (although that seems to changing).

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to OpticsEngineer, 6 months ago

Ok well the NEX 3NY 16-50 and 55-210 kit is currently $500 AU, given I'm happy to use a tripod in absolute low light conditions what am I missing? The sensor results on DXO are almost very nearly identical... Why should I pay more for the NEX 5 or NEX 7?

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Mike Fewster
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Don't tell me about ISO, as I believe ISO bumping is an anachronism. I'm this close to actually buying an NEX, but then I look at things... I could handle the 18-105 at F/4.... that's quite a good aperture if you look at the long end, but where are your wide and fast wide angle lenses? I want something in the vicinity of a 14-35 or there abouts which would go down to something like F/1.8 but Sony doesn't offer anything here... It's a shame really, the one lens I would use frequently for landscape photog and Sony doesn't have one?

Why is bumping up iso an anachronism? Today you can do it, yesterday it wasn't a good move. If anything is an anachronism it is very fast lenses surely. They are a throwback to the days when 400 asa was considered fast, when wide open fast lenses were better for ovf as the viewfinder was much better wide open and stopped down to shooting aperture when fired.

Narrow DOF is pretty good on the bigger Sony sensors that isn't the reason for fast lenses that it is on some of the other formats.

Those fast lenses are also bigger, heavier and more expensive.

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Lumixdude
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Mike Fewster, 6 months ago

Using ISO means lower IQ images, bad habits die hard when you shoot with a compact for a while. Having a faster lens means you can get the most possible out of your sensor in all lighting conditions. Take a camera like the Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 with poor noise suppression and you already have noise issues base ISO in low light conditions, it gets worse when you bump the ISO and end up with a worse shot then I can get out of my compact at a lower ISO. Don't believe me and see for yourself...

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WoodWorks
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Using ISO means lower IQ images, bad habits die hard when you shoot with a compact for a while. Having a faster lens means you can get the most possible out of your sensor in all lighting conditions. Take a camera like the Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 with poor noise suppression and you already have noise issues base ISO in low light conditions, it gets worse when you bump the ISO and end up with a worse shot then I can get out of my compact at a lower ISO. Don't believe me and see for yourself...

What you say is true of µ4/3 sensors (though it's less true than it was a few years ago). But the APS-C and full-frame sensors on the newer Sony cameras are in another league. I've shot images at ISO 12800 on my A7 that are (barely) useable. And ISO 6400 images look like ISO 400 images on an µ4/3 camera.

As you say: See for yourself. This was shot at ISO 12800 with my A7.

David

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Lumixdude
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to WoodWorks, 6 months ago

As the name suggests, I am a Panasonic (and Canon) shooter I'm over here because of the value for money and the fact that neither Panasonic or Canon are offering anything brilliant. I do like the GM1 concept, and the range of lenses available on the µ43 platform, but then the IQ on the GM1 seems little better than all of Canons APS-C range right now. At the moment the NEX offers what I want out of a small kit with good IQ.

All of that aside... Those are some pretty impressive shots that would look like ISO400 on a Panasonic µ43 camera such as the GM1. I was set to buy one of those, until I really had a look at it and in those lighting conditions without a fast lens I'd be no better off than where I am now with my LX7. Unfortunately, you don't get quality until you hit the GX7 or OMD.

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Mike Fewster
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

As the name suggests, I am a Panasonic (and Canon) shooter I'm over here because of the value for money and the fact that neither Panasonic or Canon are offering anything brilliant. I do like the GM1 concept, and the range of lenses available on the µ43 platform, but then the IQ on the GM1 seems little better than all of Canons APS-C range right now. At the moment the NEX offers what I want out of a small kit with good IQ.

All of that aside... Those are some pretty impressive shots that would look like ISO400 on a Panasonic µ43 camera such as the GM1. I was set to buy one of those, until I really had a look at it and in those lighting conditions without a fast lens I'd be no better off than where I am now with my LX7. Unfortunately, you don't get quality until you hit the GX7 or OMD.

I think you are still blinkered by your previous camera experience. You need to do some more exploring re just what the larger sensors and the Sony senor performance is capable of. Even the small sensor Sonys as on the RX10 and RX100 have changed the game. In fact, I'd argue now that the real need on the Sonys is for built in ND filters rather than faster lenses. Sony has added one to the rx10 and Ild hope to see this on all future models.

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hyenadog
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Yeah, that's the Same problem as an EOS M, "buy an adapter"... Then there's the GM1 as well which has inferior IQ. Fuji doesn't have one either... I shoot a lot in the early morning and late in the afternoon. For daylight F/4 is fine, but for most other times you're not in much luck.

the vast majority of people using a nex use it for shooting static things in decent light - landscapes, portraits etc .. for anything else there are better choices thats why there is the lens choice there is with little bright and tele >50mm

the NEX is great for landscapes, portraits, crap for low light situations with moving targets eg kids playing, theatre/school plays, school sports etc.

Fro the looks of it Sony are probably going to focus their lens effort on their FF offerings with some zeiss price Zeiss bright short tele primes/zooms hopefully with OIS .. the v2 of the A7's will probably suit you (and me) more if and when these lenses are out

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areichow
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to viking79, 6 months ago

OpticsEngineer wrote:

The NEX market niche is all about small size and light weight. So I expect there will never be fast zooms for NEX.

But is it really?  Look how many people adapt large lenses.  I wouldn't buy a 2.8 zoom for a NEX, but if they came out with a slightly larger camera I would consider it (like say Fuji X-T1 or Samsung NX30).

Right now Fuji has 16-55mm f/2.8 and 50-140mm f/2.8 on roadmap and Samsung has 16-50mm f/2 to 2.8 and 50-150mm f/2.8 on roadmap, so the only two mirrorless APS-C competitors (discounting EOS) have large aperture zooms on their mirrorless camera roadmaps.

Eric

I'm with Eric. It'd be good to have options. I don't know how well it would sell - there might just not be a market, given who typically buys a NEX. I use a giant and heavy FD 70-210/4 on my 5R quite a bit and like how it handles.

Maybe the difference is the way I hold the camera? I've never had any SLR and may not have the kind of hold most folks used to a big SLR with a deep grip and OVF have.

It chaffes when people say someone "defeats the point of" whatever mirrorless system is being discussed. Maybe if only huge lenses were available it would. I'm not interested in owning 6 bodies from 3 systems to get what would be a useful set of lenses.

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kaiser soze
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Richt2000, 6 months ago

Richt2000 wrote:

Buy a nex 7, LA-EA2 or 4, and the sigma 18-35/1.8

thats about the only mirrorless combo with a f1.8 zoom!

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The larger max aperture will let you use a shutter speed faster by enough to just about make up for the loss of image stabilization.

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kaiser soze
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to hyenadog, 6 months ago

hyenadog wrote:

Lumixdude wrote:

Yeah, that's the Same problem as an EOS M, "buy an adapter"... Then there's the GM1 as well which has inferior IQ. Fuji doesn't have one either... I shoot a lot in the early morning and late in the afternoon. For daylight F/4 is fine, but for most other times you're not in much luck.

the vast majority of people using a nex use it for shooting static things in decent light - landscapes, portraits etc .. for anything else there are better choices thats why there is the lens choice there is with little bright and tele >50mm

the NEX is great for landscapes, portraits, crap for low light situations with moving targets eg kids playing, theatre/school plays, school sports etc.

Fro the looks of it Sony are probably going to focus their lens effort on their FF offerings with some zeiss price Zeiss bright short tele primes/zooms hopefully with OIS .. the v2 of the A7's will probably suit you (and me) more if and when these lenses are out

you will no doubt find some NEX-7 owners who agree with that,  but I do not, and I doubt if the majority do.

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kaiser soze
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Ok well the NEX 3NY 16-50 and 55-210 kit is currently $500 AU, given I'm happy to use a tripod in absolute low light conditions what am I missing? The sensor results on DXO are almost very nearly identical... Why should I pay more for the NEX 5 or NEX 7?

not worth responding to. You're gonna have to be. Ore specific than that.

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kaiser soze
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Mike Fewster, 6 months ago

Mike Fewster wrote:

Lumixdude wrote:

Don't tell me about ISO, as I believe ISO bumping is an anachronism. I'm this close to actually buying an NEX, but then I look at things... I could handle the 18-105 at F/4.... that's quite a good aperture if you look at the long end, but where are your wide and fast wide angle lenses? I want something in the vicinity of a 14-35 or there abouts which would go down to something like F/1.8 but Sony doesn't offer anything here... It's a shame really, the one lens I would use frequently for landscape photog and Sony doesn't have one?

Why is bumping up iso an anachronism? Today you can do it, yesterday it wasn't a good move. If anything is an anachronism it is very fast lenses surely. They are a throwback to the days when 400 asa was considered fast, when wide open fast lenses were better for ovf as the viewfinder was much better wide open and stopped down to shooting aperture when fired.

Narrow DOF is pretty good on the bigger Sony sensors that isn't the reason for fast lenses that it is on some of the other formats.

Those fast lenses are also bigger, heavier and more expensive.

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Mike Fewster
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My thoughts are similar.

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kaiser soze
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Using ISO means lower IQ images, bad habits die hard when you shoot with a compact for a while. Having a faster lens means you can get the most possible out of your sensor in all lighting conditions. Take a camera like the Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 with poor noise suppression and you already have noise issues base ISO in low light conditions, it gets worse when you bump the ISO and end up with a worse shot then I can get out of my compact at a lower ISO. Don't believe me and see for yourself...

You can use higher ISO up to a point with only negligible increase in noise. The NEX-7 has a special mode (two actually but only barely any difference between them) where it takes six individual pictures in rapid succession using a combination of high ISO and fast shutter speed. This avoids blur that is do to camera motion, and the image noise that is the result of the poor signal-to-noise ratio (that accompanies high ISO) is mostly eliminated when the images are combined into a single image. it only works for subjects that are't moving, but comes in handy in many situations where you don't want to use the cameras max aperture because of loss of depth of field. Many of the situations I encounter where I would want to use higher ISO so as to permit faster shutter speed are also situations where I can't use the max aperture of the lens anyway.

I agree essentially that a zoom with greater zoom range and with constant aperture that is also faster than the the present batch of zooms will be welcome. But I think that you are perhaps overstating the severity of the predicament.

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Tone Row
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Don't tell me about ISO, as I believe ISO bumping is an anachronism. I'm this close to actually buying an NEX, but then I look at things... I could handle the 18-105 at F/4.... that's quite a good aperture if you look at the long end, but where are your wide and fast wide angle lenses? I want something in the vicinity of a 14-35 or there abouts which would go down to something like F/1.8 but Sony doesn't offer anything here... It's a shame really, the one lens I would use frequently for landscape photog and Sony doesn't have one?

Weird that I'm the first one to ask this, but who pray tell offers a 14-35 or there abouts f/1.8 lens? Your post seems to infer that Sony is the only one who doesn't have one yet I can't think of a single manufacturer that does......

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Lumixdude
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Re: This doesn't add up
In reply to Mike Fewster, 6 months ago

Mike Fewster wrote:

Lumixdude wrote:

As the name suggests, I am a Panasonic (and Canon) shooter I'm over here because of the value for money and the fact that neither Panasonic or Canon are offering anything brilliant. I do like the GM1 concept, and the range of lenses available on the µ43 platform, but then the IQ on the GM1 seems little better than all of Canons APS-C range right now. At the moment the NEX offers what I want out of a small kit with good IQ.

All of that aside... Those are some pretty impressive shots that would look like ISO400 on a Panasonic µ43 camera such as the GM1. I was set to buy one of those, until I really had a look at it and in those lighting conditions without a fast lens I'd be no better off than where I am now with my LX7. Unfortunately, you don't get quality until you hit the GX7 or OMD.

I think you are still blinkered by your previous camera experience. You need to do some more exploring re just what the larger sensors and the Sony senor performance is capable of. Even the small sensor Sonys as on the RX10 and RX100 have changed the game. In fact, I'd argue now that the real need on the Sonys is for built in ND filters rather than faster lenses. Sony has added one to the rx10 and Ild hope to see this on all future models.

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Mike Fewster
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I probably am a little blinkered by my past experiences and now I want to fix that. It seems all of these cameras be it Eos M or Fuji X mount have auto focus related issues, it does beg the question of what is going on here... I guess you can only fit so much in a small body... But.. Anyway I go should by rights be better than a compact. Maybe if I did go with a larger body D5300 or something similar I'd find I wanted to take action shots... I don't think so I never really have been interested in action photography, or anything more mildly action related than being on the street. The most annoying thing I've found is moving cars in night shots on the street.

Most of those issues can be resolved by carrying a tripod which i've only really found restrictive when I've been travelling overseas and want to be out while carrying not much, my travel photography at night is pretty much non-existent. I guess I can't say much, 9 years ago when I was in Europe I didn't understand things such as long exposures, or how to capture shots at night. It wasn't really a possibility back then in a digital compact, or most SLRs back then though particularly with CCD sensors... Even SLRS were immature....

I've learned a lot since then and currently have a renewed interest and want to get a lot better at what I do, the biggest thing that is holding me back at the moment is not my shot selection, but the quality of the camera I'm shooting on.

On the issue of a built in ND filter it's good in some situations where it's simply too bright to stop down, but I don't really use it on the LX7 all that often when you've got that many other options before you need one and you can recover at least 3 or 4 stops of light in post processing. It's always nice to be able to underexpose with digital cameras and then bring it all back.

The RX10 is a good camera, but it's definitely a little expensive, and then your stuck... It's a good lens, but I also don't want to be stuck in a situation of having just one lens to shoot with. Maybe in time I'll get sick of the NEX because of the lack of lenses. I don't know, I was looking at an EOS M, then I was looking at the GM1, now I'm over here on the NEX, I guess if I do get sick of it I can do what I'd do with the EOS M and start buying some A Mount glass... And then I'd purely be locked into being a Sony shooter.

That's the thing, I've been shooting for a while now, but I haven't locked myself into any one system, I gave up a Canon camera and a set of kit lenses at one point simply because I wanted something smaller and... the way Canon is right now it's not that much of a difference in more challenging light, I also didn't know much better at the time... It is time I became a little less blinkered by brands and the gear I buy, you never really know I could be happy over here with a Sony kit.

On lenses I did say something like... and giving up 4 or 5 stops of light by using my compact at that length the F/2.8 on the Fuji looks good. Canon has a range of lenses at around F/2.8 and I'm not averse to putting a big lens on a little camera. Then there's Panasonic which has the 12-35mm F/2.8 as does Olympus have the 12-40mm F/2.8 all of these guys offer fast wide angle lenses that would match/beat where I'm currently at with a compact. I may be overstating the issue, or my need for such a thing. I'm not a fan of primers though, simply because my photography never is shot at any real traditional focal length.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to Lumixdude, 6 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

You're right, in one sense in terms of light gathering, but F/1.4 is F1.4 is not not? Maybe I just don't need that kind of lens speed after all...

The "f" is the focal length. In case of your LX-7, the "f" at the widest is 4.7mm (which is 24mm equiv), so you are looking at an opening 4.7/1.4 = 3.4mm. By comparison, the kit zoom on NEX-3N is 16mm (which is 24mm equiv) but f/3.5, so the opening, 16/3.5 = 4.6mm.

So, more light gets through the NEX kit lens even though it is f/3.5. The difference is that the light is used over a sensor significantly larger.

That being said, landscape is the last thing I would shoot wide open and especially at night unless I'm shooting the stars. With wide angles, f/5.6-f/8 provides ample shutter speed at the base ISO, and stopping down further is even better if you want star burst appearance.

My widest lenses are 8mm /2.8 (fisheye) and 20mm/2.8, and I almost never shoot at aperture larger than f/4 (usually f/5.6). Same with my Sony 16-50/2.8 lens.

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Lumixdude
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 6 months ago

I do, do a bit of astro stuff I guess in the end it just means a longer exposure and a more laborious process is necessary to achieve the same results counting in minutes rather than seconds before you can take the next shot like this one of the Southern Cross

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Lumixdude
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Re: what's your definition of 'fast'?
In reply to forpetessake, 6 months ago

I do understand this, I don't particularly want a large body, but I haven't thrown out the idea entirely of buying a smaller SLR such as a 100D or D5300. The idea here is not something that will necessarily fit in my pocket, I'm not fixated by this, but a camera I can pick up and take in my car wherever I go is something that I find nice. The LX7 if I do go down this path would be reserved to pocket duties, or maybe I just might get a housing for it and go down to the beach more often where camera quality is not so much as important.

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OpticsEngineer
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Re: Sony where are your fast zoom lenses?
In reply to areichow, 6 months ago

"I'm with Eric. It'd be good to have options. I don't know how well it would sell - there might just not be a market, given who typically buys a NEX."

Actually I am with Eric too.  If Sony makes an E-mount 16-50 f/2.8 I would likely buy it.  I just don't think if fits into the "vision statement" they have NEX.

They had a perfectly good 18-55 f/3.5-f/5.6 E-mount kit lens.   So did they make a f/2.8 zoom?   No they made the pancake 16-50 f/3.5-5.6.

The one glimmer of hope I see in all this is the A3000.  That is a body that one could comfortably hold a 16-50 f/2.8 on.    If that camera sells well, maybe there will some follow up.

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