Another Olympus E-M1 and SONY a7 walkabout test, high ISO

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
Big Ga
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Re: "But if you shoot at high ISO - a larger sensor is your friend."
In reply to Fred Mueller, 11 months ago

Fred Mueller wrote:

Full frame gets sold on the magic of the very narrow DOF "look", but in practice, that look is an outlier most of the time.

That all depends on what you shoot. For many people, needing extended DOF in a shot is an outlier most of the time.

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Lab D
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Wrong
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Anders W wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

Anders W wrote:

Henry showing the difference between sensors

Lol, instead of 2x I will use 1.5x for A7 and 1.8x for A7r. So, at equivalency, the M1 will be slightly better?

Sorry but apparently you still didn't get it. As you can see from the diagram above, the E-M1 is about 1.5 EV ahead for equivalent images and about 0.5 EV behind for non-equivalent ones (same exposure, different DoF).

It is about 1.5 stops behind when you take pixel count into consideration,

The chart already takes pixel count into consideration.  If you don't on the DxO site the E-M1 line moves up even with the 2 A7 cameras.   Go to DxO and read about the difference between "screen" and "print" when viewing their graphs.

and is another 1.5 stop behind in headroom (highlights).

Now you are just making stuff up.  I trust DxO over you.

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Sergey_Green
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No, not really ..
In reply to Lab D, 11 months ago

Lab D wrote:

The chart already takes pixel count into consideration. If you don't on the DxO site the E-M1 line moves up even with the 2 A7 cameras. Go to DxO and read about the difference between "screen" and "print" when viewing their graphs.

The shown graph shows screen (100% crop) comparison, not from normalized down-scaled images. Below is the normalized print comparison.

and is another 1.5 stop behind in headroom (highlights).

Now you are just making stuff up. I trust DxO over you.

I just realized there is a fraction of difference for shadows between OMD5 and OMD1, else the graphs are pretty much the same.

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Ulric
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Re: "But if you shoot at high ISO - a larger sensor is your friend."
In reply to MatsP, 11 months ago

MatsP wrote:

Once upon a time when I was shooting FF - back in old film days - my biggest concern was to get enough DOF, not the opposite. Anyway I still, as an EM-5 owner, sometimes think that maybe I should get myself an FF digital. And the 7 and 7r really tempted me. After reading this thread they are much less tempting to me.

Getting enough DOF still is a challenge. Here's Ingrid, only one eye in focus, and the lens is not even wide open. The primary benefit of fast lenses is that they let in more light.

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Lab D
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You didn't read did you
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

The chart already takes pixel count into consideration. If you don't on the DxO site the E-M1 line moves up even with the 2 A7 cameras. Go to DxO and read about the difference between "screen" and "print" when viewing their graphs.

The shown graph shows screen (100% crop) comparison, not from normalized down-scaled images.

You didn't read did you.  The Chart is for noramized down-scaled images.  PLEASE go to DxO's site and read about the difference between "screen" and "print" when viewing their graphs.

and is another 1.5 stop behind in headroom (highlights).

Now you are just making stuff up. I trust DxO over you.

Then go look it up again, make sure you select print this time.

You didn't read.  These were with "Print" selected.  Even when you switch to "screen" which used the full resolution it does NOT change by 1.5 stops like you keep saying.  Instead it give the E-M1 about 1/2 stop advantage and makes it almost even (see screen is now selected).

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Sergey_Green
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Yes, I did read ..
In reply to Lab D, 11 months ago

Lab D wrote:

You didn't read. These were with "Print" selected.

Is what it should be if you compare to the same result. Image with more pixels does not have to have the same noise granularity at 100% to be equal.

Even when you switch to "screen" which used the full resolution it does NOT change by 1.5 stops like you keep saying. Insead it give the E-M1 about 1/2 stop advantage.

No, it does not. Sony is ahead by 1.5 stops in the shadows on the average. Add another 1.5 stops for the highlights. You get smoother looking image as a result.

See my post above.

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Lab D
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HELLO!! You are not reading!
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

You didn't read. These were with "Print" selected.

Is what it should be if you compare to the same result. Image with more pixels does not have to have the same noise granularity at 100% to be equal.

Even when you switch to "screen" which used the full resolution it does NOT change by 1.5 stops like you keep saying. Insead it give the E-M1 about 1/2 stop advantage.

No, it does not.

HELLO!!!!! I even posted the actual DxO graph!  As you can see if we switch to "SCREEN" it moves the E-M1 line up almost equal with the A7.  The other chart had the images normalized and so the E-M1 was about 1/2 stop lower.  Your 1 and 1/5 stop claims make zero sense here.

Here is normaized and "Print" is slected:

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Sergey_Green
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You posted wrong graph ..
In reply to Lab D, 11 months ago

Lab D wrote:

HELLO!!!!! I even posted the actual DxO graph! As you can see if we switch to "SCREEN" it moves the E-M1 line up almost equal with the A7. The other chart had the images normalized and so the E-M1 was about 1/2 stop lower. Your 1 and 1/5 stop claims make zero sense here.

But that is irrelevant, you are comparing 100% crop, what good is comparing to the same noise if you have more detail in one image and less in the other. Hello back at you.

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Ah here ..
In reply to Lab D, 11 months ago

Lab D wrote:

This graph is about right. But then again, it is more than a stop difference at base ISO, where most people shoot. At least I do. OMD will still clip highlights way before Sony does, at any ISO.

And I am honestly surprised OMD1 does slightly better in the shadows than OMD5, would think this is almost the same imager.

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Lab D
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So yes, I was right all along, thanks
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

This graph is about right.

So after psoting this graph about 10 times you finally agree.  As you can see the difference for almost every ISO is about 1/2 stop.   Nowhere is it the 3 stops you claimed.

For the record, when you kept saying I was posting the non-nomalized graph, here that is which shows the E-M1 is virtually the same.  For practical purposes we should not use it and the one above is more useful.  Notice there is NOT a 1.5 stop difference between graphs.

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Sergey_Green
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In all seriousness ..
In reply to Fred Mueller, 11 months ago

Fred Mueller wrote:

Full frame gets sold on the magic of the very narrow DOF "look", but in practice, that look is an outlier most of the time.

Have you considered this,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/97512826@N06/sets/72157634195387985/

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Lab D
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Now you agree it was correct.
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

HELLO!!!!! I even posted the actual DxO graph! As you can see if we switch to "SCREEN" it moves the E-M1 line up almost equal with the A7. The other chart had the images normalized and so the E-M1 was about 1/2 stop lower. Your 1 and 1/5 stop claims make zero sense here.

But that is irrelevant, you are comparing 100% crop, what good is comparing to the same noise if you have more detail in one image and less in the other. Hello back at you.

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I see in you other post where you finally agreed it was the correct chart.

Here are both:

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Godfrey
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Re: Another Olympus E-M1 and SONY a7 walkabout test, high ISO
In reply to Daniel Wee, 11 months ago

... In conclusion, I am enjoying both these cameras tremendously and if I were stuck with either one, I'd be just as happy.

Same here. So far, I have not seen enormous differences in imaging performance between the two cameras that are in any way derivative of sensor quality. The big differences I see are responsiveness and the specific lenses ... and I'm using mostly Panasonic-Leica and Olympus top line lenses on the E-M1, and Leica R lenses on the A7.

Both cameras are very enjoyable to use, now that I have them sorted to my preference, and work very well. The goal now is to forget all the bits and bytes, comparison stuff and use them to make great photos...

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Sergey_Green
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I did not say I agree,
In reply to Lab D, 11 months ago

Lab D wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

This graph is about right.

So after psoting this graph about 10 times you finally agree. As you can see the difference for almost every ISO is about 1/2 stop. Nowhere is it the 3 stops you claimed.

It is 14.2 over 12.7 at base ISO, but you are looking at the shadows only. Look at how they compare in the headroom. From dark to white you get almost 3 stops difference. Well, fraction less, but you can safely round it up to the nearest digit. Also look at the color depth, hmm, I think you are upset enough for today already.

For the record, when you kept saying I was posting the non-nomalized graph, here that is which shows the E-M1 is virtually the same. For practical purposes we should not use it and the one above is more useful. Notice there is NOT a 1.5 stop difference between graphs.

Whatever. We get the picture

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texinwien
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Re: Ah here ..
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

This graph is about right. But then again, it is more than a stop difference at base ISO, where most people shoot. At least I do. OMD will still clip highlights way before Sony does, at any ISO.

And I am honestly surprised OMD1 does slightly better in the shadows than OMD5, would think this is almost the same imager.

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LOL. Sergey's wrong again. Seems to be making a habit of that, lately.

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Sergey_Green
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In reply to texinwien, 11 months ago

texinwien wrote:

LOL. Sergey's wrong again. Seems to be making a habit of that, lately.

Wrong how exactly?

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Sergey_Green
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Considering Sony has the same (or at least very close) as D800 sensor
In reply to Godfrey, 11 months ago

Godfrey wrote:

... In conclusion, I am enjoying both these cameras tremendously and if I were stuck with either one, I'd be just as happy.

Same here. So far, I have not seen enormous differences in imaging performance between the two cameras that are in any way derivative of sensor quality.

You will not see much difference in normal mode on the average scenes. You will see enormous difference if you get creative with it and start looking at finer detail from more dynamic scenes (into the light, white snow, finer color, etc ..).

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Lab D
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Re: I did not say I agree,
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Lab D wrote:

This graph is about right.

So after psoting this graph about 10 times you finally agree. As you can see the difference for almost every ISO is about 1/2 stop. Nowhere is it the 3 stops you claimed.

It is 14.2 over 12.7 at base ISO, but you are looking at the shadows only. Look at how they compare in the headroom. From dark to white you get almost 3 stops difference. Well, fraction less, but you can safely round it up to the nearest digit. Also look at the color depth, hmm, I think you are upset enough for today already.

Actually you are making use laugh.  So at the ISOs you need DR the most you claim 3 stops and yet DxO shows it is about 1/2 stop.  I'll go with DxO.

Oh, and everyone uses the base ISO exclusively right?  Why do they have have an ISO setting on cameras?  I am sure in doors and you enjoy using the 2 second shutter speed at base ISO.

For the record, when you kept saying I was posting the non-nomalized graph, here that is which shows the E-M1 is virtually the same. For practical purposes we should not use it and the one above is more useful. Notice there is NOT a 1.5 stop difference between graphs.

Whatever. We get the picture

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Lab D
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Re: Considering Sony has the same (or at least very close) as D800 sensor
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Godfrey wrote:

... In conclusion, I am enjoying both these cameras tremendously and if I were stuck with either one, I'd be just as happy.

Same here. So far, I have not seen enormous differences in imaging performance between the two cameras that are in any way derivative of sensor quality.

You will not see much difference in normal mode on the average scenes. You will see enormous difference if you get creative with it and start looking at finer detail from more dynamic scenes (into the light, white snow, finer color, etc ..).

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Yeah, where is that giant dynamic range difference again at ISOs 120-12800? LOL!   I see about .5 stop.

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Sergey_Green
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Actually ..
In reply to Lab D, 11 months ago

Lab D wrote:

Actually you are making use laugh. So at the ISOs you need DR the most you claim 3 stops and yet DxO shows it is about 1/2 stop. I'll go with DxO.

We are looking at DXO. What does DR mean to you, why is it important?

Oh, and everyone uses the base ISO exclusively right? Why do they have have an ISO setting on cameras? I am sure in doors and you enjoy using the 2 second shutter speed at base ISO.

I do use ISO rather often, but I get more clipped highlights (yes, with D800) then I care about shadows. It is difficult to clip highlights with this camera, but I manage ;).

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