Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
TangoR
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to TangoR, 9 months ago

I can't stop Pixel peeping!!!.

OK heres another version. Heres what I learnt.

1. Doing a sharpen makes the noise a bit more pronounced. Seems all my previous versions (not the original posted in the beginning) had some sharpening applied.

Heres another version with Only Saturation and contrast changes.

Still noisy But Better colors

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tom60634
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to TangoR, 9 months ago

TangoR wrote:

Ya know what. After looking at my noise reduction results I reached a conclusion that noise does not bother me at all. However Noise reduction artifacts do!

So heres the image again with no noise reduction at all. (I think its pretty good)

You're correct, it is a pretty good image !

I couldn't help downloading your original jpeg, to see how bad the noise was without DPR filtering extra softness to the image.

While I had your image I gave it a couple of different interpretations. It lends itself to many different editing techniques, I image the original raw is a treat to work with.

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RGiskard
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to Gianluca Grossi, 9 months ago

Gianluca Grossi wrote:

I suggest you Lightroom, (but you have to tweak the sharpness/noise default value )

Do you have any suggestions for adjustments to these defaults in LR?  I'm new to the EM-1 and would appreciate your thoughts.  Thanks!

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TangoR
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to RGiskard, 9 months ago

RGiskard wrote:

Gianluca Grossi wrote:

I suggest you Lightroom, (but you have to tweak the sharpness/noise default value )

Do you have any suggestions for adjustments to these defaults in LR? I'm new to the EM-1 and would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!

I don't think its a problem with Aperture/Lightroom at all. Seems this really is a symptom of the ETTR people keep talking about. Basically for me the Image was underexposed almost a stop. Other images that are NOT underexposed have no noise. Its present in the Raw files too.

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SaltLakeGuy
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In reply to TangoR, 9 months ago

First off if I took that image file from RAW and worked it up in my normal workflow in LR 5.3 I can guarantee you not only would there be virtually NO artifacts in the sky, but the buildings would be crisper and more defined. It isn't really that hard. Let's get one thing out there for sure. The mft sensor's DO in fact exhibit a bit of sky noise by their nature at lower ISO's, just a FACT of life if you are viewing on a calibrated screen at 100%. It's NOT an argument but a FACT. At ISO100 on the EM1 I have noted it's pretty tamed so I will go for that when the DR allows for it.

Now having said that NONE of this is even so much as an issue IF one were to print that file. I can also guarantee you on my Epson 3880 and a 22x17 luster paper that file would print virtually noise free with excellent color rendition. If all I wanted to do is process it to look awesome on a calibrated screen then I would probably first, mask off the sky areas, and use a competent NR program AFTER I had done a masked sharpening in Lightroom. The masking slider on the Lightroom 5.3 is simply stunningly effective at allowing control to ignore sky's and sharpen other detail. THEN you go for selective noise reduction on the sky areas. So that is being obsessive (which much of the time I am as well). I've had pro DSLR's right down to point and shooters and frankly ALL have noise when viewed at full file size on screen unless of course you are talking about a full frame camera like a 6D, D610 or A7R at lower ISO's but their advantage is you can resize the file to be equivalent to say the EM1's file and you are automatically eliminating tons of noise (and of course pixels) which are perceived by the eye as being cleaner.

Honestly I rarely print beyond 13x19 which is pretty much my norm. At those sizes most cameras can and will present themselves as noise free in a print. Even looking at a file viewed fitted on a calibrated 27" screen exhibits NO noise. I have found if I want a pretty accurate idea of what to expect in a larger print, I view in Irfanview at 50% on my 27" screen and I will see the color and detail (and noise although there never really is any at that size) I can expect in a print. We ALL want that elusive perfection of a 100% view with pixel level detail in everything within the file, no color artifacts, no pixelation, no false colors, and sharpness where you can see a gnat's a$$ on a leaf a mile away. But in reality ALL cameras have some foible that can be discussed, and NOTHING is perfect.

I agree the primary allure of the mft format is lowered carry weight and bulk. Now of course with the EM1 you get a more professional experience in a tiny body and the lenses can be superb. I would surely MUCH rather vacation with a small bag containing a EM1 along with the 12-40 f2.8, a Panny 35-100 f2.8 and for those long shots the 75-300MKII . It weighs next to nothing , never gets in the way and can easily be carried in a small hip or shoulder bag. In the end the 13x19's and yes even 22x17's on my wall are indistinguishable from the one's taken with a Nikon D700 FF or D300. Even the lowly PL1 shots I have 13x19's of on the wall look right at home and don't call attention to themselves as inferior. As has already been said, KNOW what you're intended end purpose of the file is, and process accordingly. But what you've presented as a problem really isn't. It is easily addressed and handled with a good result.

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Ulric
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to TangoR, 9 months ago

TangoR wrote:

Ya know what. After looking at my noise reduction results I reached a conclusion that noise does not bother me at all. However Noise reduction artifacts do!

So heres the image again with no noise reduction at all. (I think its pretty good)

I thought the first version was gorgeous, noise or not, and so is this. I would dial down the saturation a bit. You are absolutely right that moderate amounts of noise is much less of a problem than excessive noise reduction artifacts.

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Gianluca Grossi
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to RGiskard, 9 months ago

RGiskard wrote:

Gianluca Grossi wrote:

I suggest you Lightroom, (but you have to tweak the sharpness/noise default value )

Do you have any suggestions for adjustments to these defaults in LR? I'm new to the EM-1 and would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!

Tomorrow morning i grave you my preset for my usual LR workflow ...I don't have my computer right now.

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Gianluca Grossi
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to TangoR, 9 months ago

TangoR wrote:

RGiskard wrote:

Gianluca Grossi wrote:

I suggest you Lightroom, (but you have to tweak the sharpness/noise default value )

Do you have any suggestions for adjustments to these defaults in LR? I'm new to the EM-1 and would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!

I don't think its a problem with Aperture/Lightroom at all. Seems this really is a symptom of the ETTR people keep talking about. Basically for me the Image was underexposed almost a stop. Other images that are NOT underexposed have no noise. Its present in the Raw files too.

If you use lightroom and the much better photo ninja you can see clearly difference in the output regard noise...take a look at the Image i post they are full size...

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knickerhawk
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I looked...
In reply to Gianluca Grossi, 9 months ago

Gianluca Grossi wrote:

knickerhawk wrote:

Gianluca Grossi wrote:

I use PN from one year and I can trusty say that it can do an unbelievable work in supressing luminance noise while maintaing a lots of detail, much much more of Aperture and LR that I own.
Until you use it (with the right setting), you can't understand what this program is capable of doing.

It uses the Noise Ninja noise reduction engine, which I've used. I understand perfectly well what you're talking about but even as good as Photo (Noise) Ninja might be at handling noise, it's never as good as starting with a properly exposed and noise-free file. The only time a better noise reduction strategy is the correct answer to give somebody who's got a problem with creating noisy images is when the exposure is optimized to begin with and the raw files produced by the camera still include unacceptable amounts of noise.

pls take a look at the pics I post...

I looked at your LR and PN comparison street shot. There are obvious problems with processing options selected with Photo Ninja, probably related in part to your more aggressive noise suppression and sharpening settings and in part to the demosaic algorithm utilized by PN. Look at the pavement to the left of the "Macelleria" sign. The more aggressive noise suppression in the PN has rubbed out texture in the pavement bricks and given them a plasticky look. Moreover, there is obvious maize moire in the pavement. It's quite clear as you look "up" the sidewalk. This moire is not present in the LR version, so it didn't "originate" in the raw file. Rather, it was introduced by some combination of the PN demosaic engine and/or your settings in PN and it's the sort of problem you sometimes see when aggressive demosaic/sharpening strategies are used. There are other tradeoff issues in the PN version as well, but these examples should suffice to reinforce the point that there are no magic bullets and no substitute for getting exposure right in the first place.

By the way, in case you didn't know, Iliah Borg, who responded in this thread, has been involved in the development of raw processing tools for many years. You should pay attention to what he's trying to explain to you. Some of us who've been hanging around DPReview for a long time have learned a lot from him.

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knickerhawk
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Re: Sigh...so much bad advice in this thread
In reply to Robgo2, 9 months ago

Robgo2 wrote:

knickerhawk wrote:

Gianluca Grossi wrote:

I use PN from one year and I can trusty say that it can do an unbelievable work in supressing luminance noise while maintaing a lots of detail, much much more of Aperture and LR that I own.
Until you use it (with the right setting), you can't understand what this program is capable of doing.

It uses the Noise Ninja noise reduction engine, which I've used. I understand perfectly well what you're talking about but even as good as Photo (Noise) Ninja might be at handling noise, it's never as good as starting with a properly exposed and noise-free file. The only time a better noise reduction strategy is the correct answer to give somebody who's got a problem with creating noisy images is when the exposure is optimized to begin with and the raw files produced by the camera still include unacceptable amounts of noise.

Your information regarding Photo Ninja is incorrect in at least one important detail. The latest version of Photo Ninja (v1.2) uses Noise Ninja 4, which is not available as a stand alone program. Prior versions of Noise Ninja were stand alone, and you probably used one of them in the past. NN4 is a quantum leap better than NN3, so if you have not tested PN 1.2, then you have no idea how effective its NR can be. I am confident that the image in question in this thread would be child's play for it. However, the best NR that I have seen is the Prime NR engine in DxO 9. Unfortunately, as a raw convertor, DxO is inferior to Photo Ninja in almost every other way. I bought DxO 9 to have available for very high ISO images with extremely heavy noise. For everything else, I use Photo Ninja and get better results.

I do agree with your point about proper exposure being the best way to minimize noise, but stuff happens, and even the best of us sometimes underexpose. In those instances, it is important to have the best NR tools and to know how to use them properly.

Rob

You are correct that I used an older version of Noise Ninja. If the "quantum leap" you're referring to is the kind of results shown in Gianluca's sample/comparison, then I'd have to say that I'm not impressed.

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knickerhawk
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Side note to Iliah
In reply to Iliah Borg, 9 months ago

I took you up on your suggestion some months ago in a previous (forgotten) thread and acquired Dan Margulis new book.  Good advice!  I'm still working my way through and trying to absorb the lessons (never easy with Dan's stuff), but it's highly edifying and stimulating for someone interested in getting the most out of Photoshop.  There are aspects of the workflow that don't suit my "eye" and preferences, but that can always be dealt with.   The quick edits + merges workflow is a fascinating concept.

Thanks.

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JF69
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which one, may I ask?
In reply to knickerhawk, 9 months ago

the title please?

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Gravi
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Re: There is a pattern....
In reply to LaMesa, 9 months ago

LaMesa wrote:

...which is very evenly distributed over the whole picture, bright or dark, contrasty or not - it is everywhere. This pattern is not or not only noise, but is very likely a characteristic of this RAW-conversion.

Herbert

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Yes, its called over-sharpening

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Gravi

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Gravi
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to TangoR, 9 months ago

TangoR wrote:

It seems that I am getting some noise in Low(ish) light ISO 200 images. Usually in normal condition my images are pretty much noise free. But IN the attached image (ORF converted to JPG in Aperture) there what I would call noise at ISO 200.

Is this normal? Is there a setting I missed on the camera?

Noise type stuff in the Sky portion.

Did you apply a certain amount of sharpening? It looks like it. If so, it increases the visibility of noise. The origin of the noise has been discussed above, some good points here and there. Part of it is the underexposure of the image.

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Gravi

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Iliah Borg
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In reply to JF69, 9 months ago
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Iliah Borg
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Re: Side note to Iliah
In reply to knickerhawk, 9 months ago

knickerhawk wrote:

I took you up on your suggestion some months ago in a previous (forgotten) thread and acquired Dan Margulis new book. Good advice! I'm still working my way through and trying to absorb the lessons (never easy with Dan's stuff), but it's highly edifying and stimulating for someone interested in getting the most out of Photoshop. There are aspects of the workflow that don't suit my "eye" and preferences, but that can always be dealt with. The quick edits + merges workflow is a fascinating concept.

Thanks.

Have you watched Dan's videos illustrating the book? Introduction is at http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com/video-demo , and you can get the rest free if you register on the site.

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knickerhawk
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Re: Side note to Iliah
In reply to Iliah Borg, 9 months ago

Iliah Borg wrote:

knickerhawk wrote:

I took you up on your suggestion some months ago in a previous (forgotten) thread and acquired Dan Margulis new book. Good advice! I'm still working my way through and trying to absorb the lessons (never easy with Dan's stuff), but it's highly edifying and stimulating for someone interested in getting the most out of Photoshop. There are aspects of the workflow that don't suit my "eye" and preferences, but that can always be dealt with. The quick edits + merges workflow is a fascinating concept.

Thanks.

Have you watched Dan's videos illustrating the book? Introduction is at http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com/video-demo , and you can get the rest free if you register on the site.

-- hide signature --

Yes I have, and in a number of cases, several times!  They're all rather well done videos.  Just the other night I rewatched the video that the Italian guy (forget his name) did on Apply Image to remind me what I was doing wrong with some channel replacement adjustments I was trying.  If only my aging brain could retain it all without repeated effort.

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Robgo2
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Re: Sigh...so much bad advice in this thread
In reply to knickerhawk, 9 months ago

knickerhawk wrote:

Robgo2 wrote:

Your information regarding Photo Ninja is incorrect in at least one important detail. The latest version of Photo Ninja (v1.2) uses Noise Ninja 4, which is not available as a stand alone program. Prior versions of Noise Ninja were stand alone, and you probably used one of them in the past. NN4 is a quantum leap better than NN3, so if you have not tested PN 1.2, then you have no idea how effective its NR can be. I am confident that the image in question in this thread would be child's play for it. However, the best NR that I have seen is the Prime NR engine in DxO 9. Unfortunately, as a raw convertor, DxO is inferior to Photo Ninja in almost every other way. I bought DxO 9 to have available for very high ISO images with extremely heavy noise. For everything else, I use Photo Ninja and get better results.

I do agree with your point about proper exposure being the best way to minimize noise, but stuff happens, and even the best of us sometimes underexpose. In those instances, it is important to have the best NR tools and to know how to use them properly.

Rob

You are correct that I used an older version of Noise Ninja. If the "quantum leap" you're referring to is the kind of results shown in Gianluca's sample/comparison, then I'd have to say that I'm not impressed.

Do we have access to the original raw file?  If so, I would be happy to take a crack at it.  I have dealt quite successfully with images with far more noise.

Rob

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rcjim
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Re: Em-1 Noise in Low ISO, Low light shots.
In reply to rcjim, 9 months ago

Some of you wanted to say what I said above and I said it for you  .

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SaltLakeGuy
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In reply to TangoR, 9 months ago

I took the liberty of downloading the image and reworking in Topaz DeNoise. It retains pretty much ALL of the original detail without the color noise and artifacts. Can't say for sure you'll see all the benefits here with internet compression going on. But I can certainly say there is NO more noise than a top FF camera would give you. In a print this would be awesome. I look forward to your thoughts.

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