a lot of pressure on Sony now ...

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
socode
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

socode wrote:

I'm still none the wiser as to what you want nor why you can't upgrade to e.g. a NEX-7 equivalent until it has a successor, if you have a 4 year old NEX-5.

Does it matter what I personally want?

The users of a camera system bought into that system because it had certain things that appealed to them. In the case of NEX, for a long time the USP's (Unique Selling Points) IMHO were:

But I was also one of those users who bought into NEX initially, what makes you think you're speaking for me?

- small body size which came from 'brick' format

The size difference for a central EVF wouldn't have been important to me, and I bought a NEX-7 despite it being a brick, not because of it. The brick made more sense on the original NEX-5 because it didn't have a viewfinder. Remind me, where did the EVF go on the NEX-5?

- high quality of construction (partially metal body on NEX-5, almost fully metal body on NEX-7 and all lenses had metal bodies)

- ability to use legacy lenses

- various high tech features

Legacy lenses are still fine, and I'm pretty sure any new cameras will continue to have various high tech features.

The NEX range at the time of discontinuation had four cameras in it: NEX-3, NEX-5, NEX-6, NEX-7

With the new range it would seem that we are looking at 2 cameras instead:

- the NEX-3 and NEX-5 replaced by a NEX-3 level camera, the A5000

I'm not sure why the number of cameras in the range is important. Wouldn't you evaluate a specific camera model for its suitability/price from your own perspective? Reducing SKUs intrinsically makes sense if having more doesn't increase your profit margin or some segments are poor sellers.

- if the rumours are true then NEX-6 and NEX-7 replaced by a NEX-6 level camera, I speculate the A7000

OK. So they may introduce yet another choice, which would be 'bad'.

The A3000 is not a NEX replacement camera and there is no room between price level of A5000 and A7000 for a NEX-5 replacement

OK, so you prefer a left EVF again. And the A5000 isn't good enough for some reason. And you don't want to splash for an A7000 regardless of what it looks like. Right?

Therefore there appear to be no plans at moment for a NEX-5 or 'real' NEX-7 replacement at a similar price point so NEX users already see their options reduced.

OK, so introducing a new camera reduces your options. Got it.

I repeat that nobody with a NEX-5, NEX-5N or NEX-5T will be interested in the A5000 so all NEX-5, NEX-6 and NEX-7 users have to look at one camera... the NEX-7 replacement

So your logic is that "no-one" with a NEX-5 variant will be interested in an A5000, another APS-C or moving to FF E mount. I doubt it.

If it is not a 'brick' format then the first USP in my list is lost... hence my 'dump the hump' signature

OK, so it's a problem for you. I prefer centre EVFs and probably so do all left-eyed people amongst others.

If it has a 'NEX-6' level of construction then the second USP is lost for existing NEX-7 users

It's nice, but it's also dependent on price for some users. Incidentally I have a NEX-7, and the body quality wasn't why I bought it.

Doubtless it will support legacy lenses and have high tech features so the last two USP's remain but that is not enough to remain in a camera system in my opinion.

So back to my original point - essentially you personally want left EVFs and metal bodies in consumer cameras, and for that reason you are going to switch system. That isn't universal.

Waiting for a replacement is fine if you are sure a replacement is going to arrive, but Sony are refusing to give us any idea what the future plans are

Which company does?

and are busy re-organising their product ranges at the moment so we are all completely in the dark and it is quite probable that no replacement will be arriving. If a system is going in a direction you don't want then you need to start looking at alternatives quickly

Why? Your camera won't stop working, there's going to be plenty of replacements in existing sales channels, used etc. , and you'd have to dispose of all of your other kit anyway over a period of time.

, particularly if you think that others are not going to like it either as you stand the risk of being left with valueless equipment and no future upgrade path if the producer's strategy fails as the owners of many 'orphaned' camera systems will tell you

But you are using legacy lenses, right? And Sony have just announced a brick camera, it's just that you don't like it?

What do I, personally, want? OK, FWIW I want *real* replacements for the NEX-5 and NEX-6 and NEX-7 bodies (we gave the NEX-3 replacement now in the form of the A5000) which continue with the same basic characteristics (eg. 'brick' body format, quality of construction, price) but just add improved features (eg. AF, corrected firmware bugs etc) in the way that we as NEX users thought was going to happen prior to the the discontinuation of the NEX name and the 'faux-DSLR' styling of the A3000 and A7/r

Can I honestly be any clearer?

I'm sure you understand what you mean quite well, but has it occurred to you that what you want may not be reflect the decisions made by other consumers?

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jpr2
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re: still about two weeks to go, and... PERHAPS we'll know
In reply to captura, 8 months ago

captura wrote:

And I am hoping it is the NEX- type rangefinder style.

same here, but... there are several possible caveats (remember, I'm waiting for N7 upgrade, not N6):

  • that - despite the fact that APS-C sensor can perfectly cohabit with the LHC built-in OLED EVF - it will be humped !!
  • that the so called N6/N7 replacement will go the N6 way = lots of plastic & little metal in the construction (just like in the a5000), reduced configurability again akin more to N6 than to N7;
  • and perhaps even a reduced cropability due to either to low-res sensor (more inline with N6, than N7), or OSPDAF eating lots of the 24 Mpx without compensating for PD sensels by increase in the sensor's resolution;

and last, but not least - the XT-1 has supposedly risen the bar of AF speed quite high. Too little time till mid Feb for S. to respond to XT-1, so... either they already do have something truly good and amazing for OSPDAF, or... it is gonna to be yet another OSPDAF from S. failing to deliver

jpr2

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GaryW
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

socode wrote:

I'm still none the wiser as to what you want nor why you can't upgrade to e.g. a NEX-7 equivalent until it has a successor, if you have a 4 year old NEX-5.

Does it matter what I personally want?

The users of a camera system bought into that system because it had certain things that appealed to them. In the case of NEX, for a long time the USP's (Unique Selling Points) IMHO were:

- small body size which came from 'brick' format

- high quality of construction (partially metal body on NEX-5, almost fully metal body on NEX-7 and all lenses had metal bodies)

- ability to use legacy lenses

- various high tech features

The NEX range at the time of discontinuation had four cameras in it: NEX-3, NEX-5, NEX-6, NEX-7

With the new range it would seem that we are looking at 2 cameras instead:

- the NEX-3 and NEX-5 replaced by a NEX-3 level camera, the A5000

- if the rumours are true then NEX-6 and NEX-7 replaced by a NEX-6 level camera, I speculate the A7000

The A3000 is not a NEX replacement camera and there is no room between price level of A5000 and A7000 for a NEX-5 replacement

The A5000 is $600 with lens. It's not clear to me what the price would be for the A7000 or exactly what will be in it. If it's $800 or $900 with lens, then maybe you're right, that there's no room for another model. In the previous round, the Nex-6 was, what, $900 to $1000 and now $800 and I forget what the Nex-7 sold for originally, but now it's $1,250. If the A7000 is a replacement for the 6 and 7 and is sold for $800, then sure, there is no room between an A5000 and A7000, but it is still unclear what these next model(s) will be, much less the pricing.

But if Sony wanted to, I think they could come out with two models to replace the 6 and 7. It makes sense to me for them to combine them, and encourage people to move up to the A7 if they want a higher-end model. A Nex-6/7 replacement with a 20mp sensor would be a nice upgrade for Nex-5 and 6 users, while Nex-7 users could be encouraged to move to the A7. Maybe that's Sony's strategy here, or maybe not, but that would be my guess, if there's only one more model.

Therefore there appear to be no plans at moment for a NEX-5 or 'real' NEX-7 replacement at a similar price point so NEX users already see their options reduced. I repeat that nobody with a NEX-5, NEX-5N or NEX-5T will be interested in the A5000 so all NEX-5, NEX-6 and NEX-7 users have to look at one camera... the NEX-7 replacement

What is left to add to the 5T but ever-smaller improvements? Besides, the 5T is still pretty new; presumably it will be for sale for a while, should someone want it.

As for the Nex-6, there was always a close overlap between this and the 7, at least in theory.

My guess is that the A7000 will replace the old Nex-5x and Nex-6 camera lines.

If it is not a 'brick' format then the first USP in my list is lost... hence my 'dump the hump' signature

It's an open question whether or not the A7000 will look more like the Nex-6/7 or the A7.

If it has a 'NEX-6' level of construction then the second USP is lost for existing NEX-7 users

If that is an essential requirement, then so be it. Personally, I'm fine with my Nex-6's construction.

Doubtless it will support legacy lenses and have high tech features so the last two USP's remain but that is not enough to remain in a camera system in my opinion. Waiting for a replacement is fine if you are sure a replacement is going to arrive, but Sony are refusing to give us any idea what the future plans are and are busy re-organising their product ranges at the moment so we are all completely in the dark and it is quite probable that no replacement will be arriving.

It's quite probable that they have a replacement that may or may not have all of the features you are looking for and may have new features. But saying that there is "no replacement" because it might not tick all of your boxes seems a bit overly dramatic.

If a system is going in a direction you don't want then you need to start looking at alternatives quickly, particularly if you think that others are not going to like it either as you stand the risk of being left with valueless equipment and no future upgrade path if the producer's strategy fails as the owners of many 'orphaned' camera systems will tell you

Perhaps, but you actually have to then live with the problems and limitations of whatever system you go into. Don't tell me there aren't limitations and risks with the other systems!

The thing is, different cameras and brands have different advantages and disadvantages; choose the camera that has the features you like and where you don't mind the limitations so much.

What do I, personally, want? OK, FWIW I want *real* replacements for the NEX-5 and NEX-6 and NEX-7 bodies (we gave the NEX-3 replacement now in the form of the A5000) which continue with the same basic characteristics (eg. 'brick' body format, quality of construction, price) but just add improved features (eg. AF, corrected firmware bugs etc) in the way that we as NEX users thought was going to happen prior to the the discontinuation of the NEX name and the 'faux-DSLR' styling of the A3000 and A7/r

The A3000 wasn't for you or me, but I think it was worth it for them to try it and see if it would work for someone. I don't have to be interested in all Sony cameras; only a couple really interest me. And, it sounds like they're about to release a camera to replace the 6/7 range.

Now, if Sony drops all rangefinder styles or upgrade paths for the rangefinder-style Nexes, as I think had been suggested in the past, then I'd agree, that'd be very disappointing. But, it seems that Sony is trying to vary the designs a bit more, but still is including the rangefinder style. So, we'll just have to see how it goes.

Can I honestly be any clearer?

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Robert Morris
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 8 months ago

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

What they need to do is MATCH the lenses first! The camera's can wait.

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bluevellet
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You guys have to get your story straight
In reply to stevo23, 8 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

If an A8r came out with 54 mp full frame and in camera IBIS - wow. That would be light years ahead of anything.

Once the Sony/Olympus transaction is complete, Sony will have access to all the IP that once belonged exclusively to Olympus. So to me, that sounds like a logical thing.

So the company Sony bought to get into the DSLR, Minolta, happened to have pioneered IBIS. Not only that but Sony uses IBIS in its own current DSLR, even full frame ones. The basic technological knowledge has already been there for IBIS with Sony.

It's a bit like arguing Sony needs to acquire Panasonic to get full swivel LCDs in its mirrorless cameras. Sony already has the know-how, they just choose not to use it in their mirrorless cameras for marketing and technical reasons.

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tharwan
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 8 months ago

I think Sony has some easy measures to decide what the new top of the line APS-C camera should look like:

  • it has to differentiate it self from the A7(R) and not eat up it sales
  • they have sales numbers of cameras with hump and without one
  • they have sales numbers of high quality NEX 7 and lower quality NEX 6

On top of that I bet they have a lot of feedback, the question is if they are going to listen to it.

I bet they also test out the cameras of their competitors, the question is if this has/had an influence in the design process. I think it would be foolish to assume Sony does not know that Fuji‘s AF was catching up via a lot of firmware updates and now has overtaken (http://www.fujirumors.com/first-look-fujifilm-x-t1/ - the tracking results are just impressive). But most of the things that Sony does seam to be driven from what they think is a good idea not what the competition does, very much like Apple.

The info here suggests that the NEX 6 was selling better than the 7 together with the rumored price on SAR (800€) one would guess the NEX 6/7 successor is more a 6 than a 7.

Sony now also has a lot of info if "we" prefer high resolution R models or the "normal" ones A7(R), R1x(R) so they can decide weather to put 16+ or 24+ MP in the new camera. My guess would be 20 like in the A3000 but that is just a guess. Maybe Sony thinks the two version model thing is good and will give us two versions, but till now we did not hear anything in this regard on SAR.

A new menu systems seams to be given since the A5000 got one. Sony did a lot of experimentation with the button and wheel layout and recently it seams like what they did on the RX1 is the winning concept (A7(R) + RX10 now also have it). The problem might be though that the launch of the A7 and RX10 was to recently to have any influence on the new Alpha.

For me it is also very interesting to see if they will include weather sealing, since Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung and now Fuji have a weather sealed mirrorless. And Sony got one two with the A7. So will this feature come down to the new camera? They also sealed the RX10 and have a lot of sealed smartphones and tablets so I believe the chances are good.

Well lots of text not much to say…

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: You guys have to get your story straight
In reply to bluevellet, 8 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

If an A8r came out with 54 mp full frame and in camera IBIS - wow. That would be light years ahead of anything.

Once the Sony/Olympus transaction is complete, Sony will have access to all the IP that once belonged exclusively to Olympus. So to me, that sounds like a logical thing.

So the company Sony bought to get into the DSLR, Minolta, happened to have pioneered IBIS. Not only that but Sony uses IBIS in its own current DSLR, even full frame ones. The basic technological knowledge has already been there for IBIS with Sony.

It's a bit like arguing Sony needs to acquire Panasonic to get full swivel LCDs in its mirrorless cameras. Sony already has the know-how, they just choose not to use it in their mirrorless cameras for marketing and technical reasons.

Well, swivel LCD is nothing new. It comes from camcorders, including Sony. And in fact, that feature has been a part if accessory EVF Sony has sold since NEX-5N. The key is whether a combination larger sensors and smallest possible body allows it. And even if it does, whether it makes sense on cameras that should have EVF in line with the lens mount anyway.

With IBIS, the issue is not of know how rather of technical challenges. And if they do have to incorporate an IBIS, wouldyou prefer a very basic one that simply happens to be there but is effectively mediocre (see Panasonic's attempt) due to lack of space flexibility? E-mount was conceived to offer larger sensors in a very small form factor and every body is extremely tightly packed.

Everything is a compromise. Need IBIS but larger sensors? Look at Sony A-mount or Pentax K-mount. Those are your only two options.

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webrunner5
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

In what way?

The Nex-7 with 24Mp still trumps in IQ?

I guess it needs a hump then after all?

No hump!

Just:

- fast autofocus

- fast update of the EVF and LCD (the Fuji X-T1 has a display lag for the EVF and LCD of only 0.005 seconds vs. X-E2: 0.05s, and Olympus OM-D E-M1: 0.029s (not sure what these are for the Sony cameras)

Big deal. This starts to become wearisome. Fast autofocus is not important for 99% out there.

Woo hoo! I'm the one in a hundred who fast AF is important for!!!!

Hold on... or are you the one in a hundred who it isn't important for?

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I am a old turd also. I never even had a autofocus camera till like 10 years ago. And I made a full time living as a small town photographer for 17 years. Been doing photo work for a LONG time. And I still use manual focus on critical stuff.

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GaryW
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Re: re: still about two weeks to go, and... PERHAPS we'll know
In reply to jpr2, 8 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

captura wrote:

And I am hoping it is the NEX- type rangefinder style.

same here, but... there are several possible caveats (remember, I'm waiting for N7 upgrade, not N6):

  • that - despite the fact that APS-C sensor can perfectly cohabit with the LHC built-in OLED EVF - it will be humped !!

We'll have to see.  If the A7 is popular, Sony may consider that part of the popularity is the hump design.  It's clear that while some of us liked the rangefinder style, probably more people prefer the hump look that has been associated with quality SLR cameras for decades.

  • that the so called N6/N7 replacement will go the N6 way = lots of plastic & little metal in the construction (just like in the a5000), reduced configurability again akin more to N6 than to N7;

I have lots of camera equipment with plastic as well as metal construction.  I can't really complain about the plastic in general, and the Nex-6 seems pretty sturdy to me.  The original Nex-5 does seem to weigh as much if not more!  No doubt that the metal construction is nice, but if it costs more, that is also a factor; given the choice, I think price matters to most people.  It just doesn't bother me on the Nex-6 in any event.

  • and perhaps even a reduced cropability due to either to low-res sensor (more inline with N6, than N7), or OSPDAF eating lots of the 24 Mpx without compensating for PD sensels by increase in the sensor's resolution;

Has there been any info on how many pixels are "eaten up" by the OSPDAF, even on the existing cameras?

and last, but not least - the XT-1 has supposedly risen the bar of AF speed quite high.

How about accuracy?  Anyway, at that price, it's a non-starter for me, regardless of its capabilities.  Everyone raved about the Nikon 1 series -- if AF is the most important criteria, why not buy one of those cameras?  I think anything over $1000 is going to be a niche product.

Too little time till mid Feb for S. to respond to XT-1, so... either they already do have something truly good and amazing for OSPDAF, or... it is gonna to be yet another OSPDAF from S. failing to deliver

The AF on my Nex-6 is definitely better than that on my Nex-5.

jpr2

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Dave Wyman
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Re: re: still about two weeks to go, and... PERHAPS we'll know
In reply to jpr2, 8 months ago

"XT-1 has supposedly risen the bar of AF speed...Too little time...for S. to respond"

No camera can do it all. There are so many awesome features on my NEX-7 that I am not concerned about the speed of it's AF.

If a successor to my NEX-7 comes out with lot bells and whistles that I would like to have with a camera, even if it lacks AF as fast as other cameras, I'll be first in line to buy it.

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parallaxproblem
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to GaryW, 8 months ago

GaryW wrote:

The A5000 is $600 with lens. It's not clear to me what the price would be for the A7000 or exactly what will be in it. If it's $800 or $900 with lens, then maybe you're right, that there's no room for another model. In the previous round, the Nex-6 was, what, $900 to $1000 and now $800 and I forget what the Nex-7 sold for originally, but now it's $1,250. If the A7000 is a replacement for the 6 and 7 and is sold for $800, then sure, there is no room between an A5000 and A7000, but it is still unclear what these next model(s) will be, much less the pricing.

The rumour suggestion was $800 body only which means $900 with lens vs $600 for the A5000

I don't see any room for an in-between model there if it's true

And if Sony *had* wanted a NEX-5 like camera in the new range then they would have called the NEX-5T the A6000 or something, wouldn't they?   It was released at the same time as the A3000 (rather strange to have an  Ax000 model and a NEX released simultaneously) and early models of the NEX-5T were labelled as A5000 so seemingly Sony don't want the NEX-5 in the new range.  Go figure...

But if Sony wanted to, I think they could come out with two models to replace the 6 and 7. It makes sense to me for them to combine them, and encourage people to move up to the A7 if they want a higher-end model. A Nex-6/7 replacement with a 20mp sensor would be a nice upgrade for Nex-5 and 6 users, while Nex-7 users could be encouraged to move to the A7. Maybe that's Sony's strategy here, or maybe not, but that would be my guess, if there's only one more model.

Yes, I also think Sony are trying to force NEX-7 users to upgrade to the A7...  like they are maybe trying to force NEX-5 users to buy the more expensive A7000 or possibly an EVF-less A5...   but it's not really thought through on their part as they don't really recongnise 'system owners' in their customer model and think everybody is buying Sony cameras 'for the first time' so this 'forcing' is unconscious(!)

What is left to add to the 5T but ever-smaller improvements? Besides, the 5T is still pretty new; presumably it will be for sale for a while, should someone want it.

There is a lot of scope for improvement on the 5T...  but that is a whole new thread!

As for the Nex-6, there was always a close overlap between this and the 7, at least in theory.

My guess is that the A7000 will replace the old Nex-5x and Nex-6 camera lines.

Rather tough for NEX-7 users.  What will guys like NZMacro and JPR2 do?   Fuji are sitting waiting to gulp those photographers...

If the A7000 has an EVF then it's not really a replacement for the NEX-5 either...

It's an open question whether or not the A7000 will look more like the Nex-6/7 or the A7.

Agreed.  I used the word 'if'

If that is an essential requirement, then so be it. Personally, I'm fine with my Nex-6's construction.

It is personal.  I chose the 5R over the 6 for several reasons but one was that the 5R felt more solid to me (it isn't as the construction is the same, but the size was more forgiving of the amount of plastic).  NEX-7 feels much nicer to me than the NEX-6 and I would probably pony-up the difference if I had to choose, but that is just me

It's quite probable that they have a replacement that may or may not have all of the features you are looking for and may have new features. But saying that there is "no replacement" because it might not tick all of your boxes seems a bit overly dramatic.

A5000 is not a replacement for the NEX-5, and by your own admission the A7000 will probably not really be a replacment for the NEX-7...

Perhaps, but you actually have to then live with the problems and limitations of whatever system you go into. Don't tell me there aren't limitations and risks with the other systems!

The thing is, different cameras and brands have different advantages and disadvantages; choose the camera that has the features you like and where you don't mind the limitations so much.

Of course.  The point of this thread is whether Fuji are putting pressure on Sony.  My point is that Sony's lack of understanding of their customers - as illustrated by their seeming disinterest in including them in their re-organised product range will effectively drive many of them to Fuji and other companies

The A3000 wasn't for you or me, but I think it was worth it for them to try it and see if it would work for someone. I don't have to be interested in all Sony cameras; only a couple really interest me. And, it sounds like they're about to release a camera to replace the 6/7 range.

Now, if Sony drops all rangefinder styles or upgrade paths for the rangefinder-style Nexes, as I think had been suggested in the past, then I'd agree, that'd be very disappointing. But, it seems that Sony is trying to vary the designs a bit more, but still is including the rangefinder style. So, we'll just have to see how it goes.

Agreed.  We have to wait and see...

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parallaxproblem
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to socode, 8 months ago

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

socode wrote:

I'm still none the wiser as to what you want nor why you can't upgrade to e.g. a NEX-7 equivalent until it has a successor, if you have a 4 year old NEX-5.

Does it matter what I personally want?

The users of a camera system bought into that system because it had certain things that appealed to them. In the case of NEX, for a long time the USP's (Unique Selling Points) IMHO were:

But I was also one of those users who bought into NEX initially, what makes you think you're speaking for me?

- small body size which came from 'brick' format

The size difference for a central EVF wouldn't have been important to me, and I bought a NEX-7 despite it being a brick, not because of it. The brick made more sense on the original NEX-5 because it didn't have a viewfinder. Remind me, where did the EVF go on the NEX-5?

- high quality of construction (partially metal body on NEX-5, almost fully metal body on NEX-7 and all lenses had metal bodies)

- ability to use legacy lenses

- various high tech features

Legacy lenses are still fine, and I'm pretty sure any new cameras will continue to have various high tech features.

The NEX range at the time of discontinuation had four cameras in it: NEX-3, NEX-5, NEX-6, NEX-7

With the new range it would seem that we are looking at 2 cameras instead:

- the NEX-3 and NEX-5 replaced by a NEX-3 level camera, the A5000

I'm not sure why the number of cameras in the range is important. Wouldn't you evaluate a specific camera model for its suitability/price from your own perspective? Reducing SKUs intrinsically makes sense if having more doesn't increase your profit margin or some segments are poor sellers.

- if the rumours are true then NEX-6 and NEX-7 replaced by a NEX-6 level camera, I speculate the A7000

OK. So they may introduce yet another choice, which would be 'bad'.

The A3000 is not a NEX replacement camera and there is no room between price level of A5000 and A7000 for a NEX-5 replacement

OK, so you prefer a left EVF again. And the A5000 isn't good enough for some reason. And you don't want to splash for an A7000 regardless of what it looks like. Right?

Therefore there appear to be no plans at moment for a NEX-5 or 'real' NEX-7 replacement at a similar price point so NEX users already see their options reduced.

OK, so introducing a new camera reduces your options. Got it.

I repeat that nobody with a NEX-5, NEX-5N or NEX-5T will be interested in the A5000 so all NEX-5, NEX-6 and NEX-7 users have to look at one camera... the NEX-7 replacement

So your logic is that "no-one" with a NEX-5 variant will be interested in an A5000, another APS-C or moving to FF E mount. I doubt it.

If it is not a 'brick' format then the first USP in my list is lost... hence my 'dump the hump' signature

OK, so it's a problem for you. I prefer centre EVFs and probably so do all left-eyed people amongst others.

If it has a 'NEX-6' level of construction then the second USP is lost for existing NEX-7 users

It's nice, but it's also dependent on price for some users. Incidentally I have a NEX-7, and the body quality wasn't why I bought it.

Doubtless it will support legacy lenses and have high tech features so the last two USP's remain but that is not enough to remain in a camera system in my opinion.

So back to my original point - essentially you personally want left EVFs and metal bodies in consumer cameras, and for that reason you are going to switch system. That isn't universal.

Waiting for a replacement is fine if you are sure a replacement is going to arrive, but Sony are refusing to give us any idea what the future plans are

Which company does?

and are busy re-organising their product ranges at the moment so we are all completely in the dark and it is quite probable that no replacement will be arriving. If a system is going in a direction you don't want then you need to start looking at alternatives quickly

Why? Your camera won't stop working, there's going to be plenty of replacements in existing sales channels, used etc. , and you'd have to dispose of all of your other kit anyway over a period of time.

, particularly if you think that others are not going to like it either as you stand the risk of being left with valueless equipment and no future upgrade path if the producer's strategy fails as the owners of many 'orphaned' camera systems will tell you

But you are using legacy lenses, right? And Sony have just announced a brick camera, it's just that you don't like it?

What do I, personally, want? OK, FWIW I want *real* replacements for the NEX-5 and NEX-6 and NEX-7 bodies (we gave the NEX-3 replacement now in the form of the A5000) which continue with the same basic characteristics (eg. 'brick' body format, quality of construction, price) but just add improved features (eg. AF, corrected firmware bugs etc) in the way that we as NEX users thought was going to happen prior to the the discontinuation of the NEX name and the 'faux-DSLR' styling of the A3000 and A7/r

Can I honestly be any clearer?

I'm sure you understand what you mean quite well, but has it occurred to you that what you want may not be reflect the decisions made by other consumers?

I have the feeling that you are trying to draw me into a protracted argument by pretending that my position is somehow inconsistent.  Sorry, it isn't and I'm not biting on the argument so I guess I will end it here

I'm glad you are happy with the situation that NEX users find themselves in, but I find that sentiment very strange and I suspect that you are in the minority

Bye bye!

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies
* newly updated ignore list: hostile responses are probably not visible to me

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socode
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

I have the feeling that you are trying to draw me into a protracted argument by pretending that my position is somehow inconsistent. Sorry, it isn't and I'm not biting on the argument so I guess I will end it here

Let's do that, because really everyone is out to get you, and it's just impossible that someone could disagree with you, and doesn't see a need to immediately sell everything because of the styling of new E mount cameras.

I'm glad you are happy with the situation that NEX users find themselves in, but I find that sentiment very strange and I suspect that you are in the minority

I don't really understand what dire situation you think NEX users are in, and I can't say why you find it significant that the NEX-5 replacement is called A5000. But carry on suspecting all you like.

Take care.

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jpr2
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Dave: about the only "bell" I need from the N7 mk-II would be...
In reply to Dave Wyman, 8 months ago

Dave Wyman wrote:

If a successor to my NEX-7 comes out with lot bells and whistles that I would like to have with a camera, even if it lacks AF as fast as other cameras, I'll be first in line to buy it.

...the fast and accurate AF - quick enough for really dynamic action shooting/tracking. For about 70% of all I shoot my 2 years old N7-classic mk-I is still plenty enough, but... I do miss the remaining 30% (temporarily this gap is being served by over 4 years old 7d = excellent camera with outstanding AF, but... it is big and heavy).

So... should N7 mk-II fail to deliver the kind of AF I'm waiting for, and esp. IFF XT-1 will turn out in real life (i.e. not only on paper) to be equipped with a topmost AF performer, then the only thing to keep me with N7 mk-I would be its lack of that obnoxious hump (in other words, should N7 mk-II be humped, there won't be much reason for me to stay with Sony's E-mount bodies),

jpr2

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nevercat
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

GaryW wrote:

The rumour suggestion was $800 body only which means $900 with lens vs $600 for the A5000

I don't see any room for an in-between model there if it's true

Why not? There could be an A6000 for say $750 with lens ($650 without lens) and that would fint nicely inbetween, as the Nex3 and Nex 5 were allways rather close together.

And if Sony *had* wanted a NEX-5 like camera in the new range then they would have called the NEX-5T the A6000 or something, wouldn't they?

Why? They decided that the Nex 5t was not enough of an update for the new name, so they decided to stick with the old name for a while... Look at the A5000 how great an update that is compared with the Nex 3n!

It was released at the same time as the A3000 (rather strange to have an Ax000 model and a NEX released simultaneously) and early models of the NEX-5T were labelled as A5000 so seemingly Sony don't want the NEX-5 in the new range. Go figure...

That is your conspiricy consept. It is very well possible that Sony will come with a Nex 5t successor at the end of the year, call it A6000 or whatever and we have a nice range again. And who knows there will be an A7000 (Nex 6 successor) and an A8000 (or A9000) too with more Nex 7 features... But it is said by many reviewers that they did not understand why Sony came with both the Nex 6 and Nex 7 as those cameras are very close together in many ways...

Yes, I also think Sony are trying to force NEX-7 users to upgrade to the A7... like they are maybe trying to force NEX-5 users to buy the more expensive A7000 or possibly an EVF-less A5... but it's not really thought through on their part as they don't really recongnise 'system owners' in their customer model and think everybody is buying Sony cameras 'for the first time' so this 'forcing' is unconscious(!)

No company can force custommers! Sony will not do so. Personaly I think that Sony made with the pricing of the A7 it very hard to create space for a Nex 7 successor in the price class the Nex 7 was in. So it does make sense that Sony is comming with a sort of inbetween the Nex 6 and Nex 7. But again we have to see.

As for the Nex-6, there was always a close overlap between this and the 7, at least in theory.

My guess is that the A7000 will replace the old Nex-5x and Nex-6 camera lines.

Rather tough for NEX-7 users. What will guys like NZMacro and JPR2 do?

Maybe using their cameras for a little longer? The take excelent pictures with them, so why would they buy a new camera? Not everybody buys every few years a camera!

Fuji are sitting waiting to gulp those photographers...

And what has Fuji to offer that focus as fast or faster then the Nex 7? Only a camera with a hump!

If the A7000 has an EVF then it's not really a replacement for the NEX-5 either...

Put it in your brain: The A7000 (if it is called that way) is NOT the successor of the Nex 5t! It is the successor of the Nex 6 and/or nex 7

It's quite probable that they have a replacement that may or may not have all of the features you are looking for and may have new features. But saying that there is "no replacement" because it might not tick all of your boxes seems a bit overly dramatic.

A5000 is not a replacement for the NEX-5, and by your own admission the A7000 will probably not really be a replacment for the NEX-7...

The A5000 is not the Nex 5t successor, right, it is the Nex 3n successor. But in fact it has many of the same features as the Nex 5t, in a cheaper body. When the original Nex 3 looked like this camera I had probably a Nex 3 and not a Nex 5! So for some the A5000 can be a good replacement for the Nex 5x.

For the A7000 we have to wait and see what kind of camera it will be, who knows is it more a Nex 7 update (with tri-navi) then a Nex 6 update. Remember all we know is from a rumor side that was not very informative lately when it comes to new cameras...

Of course. The point of this thread is whether Fuji are putting pressure on Sony. My point is that Sony's lack of understanding of their customers - as illustrated by their seeming disinterest in including them in their re-organised product range will effectively drive many of them to Fuji and other companies

Maybe Sony is not understanding you, but I think they understands the majority of their custommers very well. That does not say they will do everything those custommers wants (that is impossible) but they understand them. The problem is that some of us do not understand Sony!

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quezra
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to socode, 8 months ago

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

I have the feeling that you are trying to draw me into a protracted argument by pretending that my position is somehow inconsistent. Sorry, it isn't and I'm not biting on the argument so I guess I will end it here

Let's do that, because really everyone is out to get you, and it's just impossible that someone could disagree with you, and doesn't see a need to immediately sell everything because of the styling of new E mount cameras.

I'm glad you are happy with the situation that NEX users find themselves in, but I find that sentiment very strange and I suspect that you are in the minority

I don't really understand what dire situation you think NEX users are in, and I can't say why you find it significant that the NEX-5 replacement is called A5000. But carry on suspecting all you like.

Take care.

Don't worry about our dear paranoid friend pp. About a dozen different people have told him the same thing but he still believes he's right and the whole world is wrong.

The clearest division of the camera categories I can find is on the Sony UK site. They have merged A and E mount cameras, splitting them into 3 categories:

Casual shooting - NEX-5T, A3000, A5000, A58, A65 (A65 surprised me but whatever)

Advanced amateur - NEX-6, NEX-7 and A77

Expert capability - A7, A7R, A99

So I'll hazard a guess that the A7000 number will actually be reserved for the 5T replacement. Sony have said at their blogs that the A5000 is not a 5 replacement, but a 3 replacement.

I think the NEX-6 and 7 replacements will actually be numbered A5 / A5R. Just my guess.

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PVCdroid
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to quezra, 8 months ago

quezra wrote:

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

I have the feeling that you are trying to draw me into a protracted argument by pretending that my position is somehow inconsistent. Sorry, it isn't and I'm not biting on the argument so I guess I will end it here

Let's do that, because really everyone is out to get you, and it's just impossible that someone could disagree with you, and doesn't see a need to immediately sell everything because of the styling of new E mount cameras.

I'm glad you are happy with the situation that NEX users find themselves in, but I find that sentiment very strange and I suspect that you are in the minority

I don't really understand what dire situation you think NEX users are in, and I can't say why you find it significant that the NEX-5 replacement is called A5000. But carry on suspecting all you like.

Take care.

Don't worry about our dear paranoid friend pp. About a dozen different people have told him the same thing but he still believes he's right and the whole world is wrong.

The clearest division of the camera categories I can find is on the Sony UK site. They have merged A and E mount cameras, splitting them into 3 categories:

Casual shooting - NEX-5T, A3000, A5000, A58, A65 (A65 surprised me but whatever)

Advanced amateur - NEX-6, NEX-7 and A77

Expert capability - A7, A7R, A99

So I'll hazard a guess that the A7000 number will actually be reserved for the 5T replacement. Sony have said at their blogs that the A5000 is not a 5 replacement, but a 3 replacement.

I think the NEX-6 and 7 replacements will actually be numbered A5 / A5R. Just my guess.

I think warranted skepticism is more appropriate for a description of PP. Wish you could see other opinions on these discussions without the complacent Sony fanatic attitude.

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quezra
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to PVCdroid, 8 months ago

PVCdroid wrote:

quezra wrote:

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

I have the feeling that you are trying to draw me into a protracted argument by pretending that my position is somehow inconsistent. Sorry, it isn't and I'm not biting on the argument so I guess I will end it here

Let's do that, because really everyone is out to get you, and it's just impossible that someone could disagree with you, and doesn't see a need to immediately sell everything because of the styling of new E mount cameras.

I'm glad you are happy with the situation that NEX users find themselves in, but I find that sentiment very strange and I suspect that you are in the minority

I don't really understand what dire situation you think NEX users are in, and I can't say why you find it significant that the NEX-5 replacement is called A5000. But carry on suspecting all you like.

Take care.

Don't worry about our dear paranoid friend pp. About a dozen different people have told him the same thing but he still believes he's right and the whole world is wrong.

The clearest division of the camera categories I can find is on the Sony UK site. They have merged A and E mount cameras, splitting them into 3 categories:

Casual shooting - NEX-5T, A3000, A5000, A58, A65 (A65 surprised me but whatever)

Advanced amateur - NEX-6, NEX-7 and A77

Expert capability - A7, A7R, A99

So I'll hazard a guess that the A7000 number will actually be reserved for the 5T replacement. Sony have said at their blogs that the A5000 is not a 5 replacement, but a 3 replacement.

I think the NEX-6 and 7 replacements will actually be numbered A5 / A5R. Just my guess.

I think warranted skepticism is more appropriate for a description of PP. Wish you could see other opinions on these discussions without the complacent Sony fanatic attitude.

So far, all our predictions have come true. PP has been wrong about everything, trying to insist Sony are doing everything possible to switch and compress and destroy their successful formula. Our predictions weren't rocket science, they were merely of the humble 'what came before will come in the future' variety. NEX-3 is for sure - replacement was A5000; NEX-5 has official word from Sony it will be replaced and like duh, best selling camera of any mirrorless in Japan; NEX-6/7 look very likely to be announced at CP+.

All of his predictions are the opposite: A5000 is the replacement for 3 and 5 which means 5 is dead; NEX-6/7 will have humps; A7 means APS-C is being abandoned; Sony is picking new designs as if at random with no consideration of what worked in the past... a ludicrously incompetent understanding of how businesses work, and proven wrong time and time again.

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miro3
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to Robert Morris, 8 months ago

Robert Morris wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

What they need to do is MATCH the lenses first! The camera's can wait.

I would prefer to exceed the lenses.

To do as good and why not better relative to the FE 55mm

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stevo23
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Re: You guys have to get your story straight
In reply to bluevellet, 8 months ago

bluevellet wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

If an A8r came out with 54 mp full frame and in camera IBIS - wow. That would be light years ahead of anything.

Once the Sony/Olympus transaction is complete, Sony will have access to all the IP that once belonged exclusively to Olympus. So to me, that sounds like a logical thing.

So the company Sony bought to get into the DSLR, Minolta, happened to have pioneered IBIS. Not only that but Sony uses IBIS in its own current DSLR, even full frame ones. The basic technological knowledge has already been there for IBIS with Sony.

What I meant is that the Olympus IBIS that is used in mirrorless cameras with short registration and which would be a good fit for the A7. Certainly there is a specific patent for that with specific constraints. One doesn't acquire a patent called "image stabilization" anymore. It has to be constrained as a unique invention. I'm not sure the Sony/Minolta stead shot will work on the A7.

It's a bit like arguing Sony needs to acquire Panasonic to get full swivel LCDs in its mirrorless cameras. Sony already has the know-how, they just choose not to use it in their mirrorless cameras for marketing and technical reasons.

Or for avoidance of patent infringement. It's not just a swivel, it's an LCD swivel with a few other specific features that makes it patentable. Then, no one else can use it in that way. Just a thought...

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