a lot of pressure on Sony now ...

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
nevercat
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

dynaxx wrote:

You come to this discussion with a narrow view of what camera buyers want based on your own, personal equipent and tastes. When you say "currently not so innovative" are you agreeing with me that Sony have been the leaders, not followers for the past 6/7 years ( which is more relevant to the thread ) ? Which Sony cameras do you think were responses to rival manufacturers' winners ?

Your point about Sony failing to recognise the importance of camera systems is not supported by the facts. Their current lens mount challenges come from their dogged adherence to the Minolta AF mount and its flange distance of 44.5 mm that goes back to the days of film and the Maxxum 7000 that was released in 1985. If you move in the Sony/Konica Minolta circles you will know how many lenses that are over 25 years old and still treasured by Sony and Konica Minolta camera owners ( and the high prices they command ). Sony's loyalty to these people after the dawn of mirrorless-ness is demonstrated by the superbly engineered Alpha to E Mount ( 18mm flange distance ) adapters.

When you say "the A5000 is not interesting to anybody with a NEX-5 or better" do you really think camera makers narrow down their target markets like that especially when this is a starter camera ?

I have been a Minolta user since 1983 and currently have an A900 and a large number of A-mount lenses (including several 'G' lenses) so I am well awre of that history. I am also aware that many A-mount users are very frustated that Sony has abandoned OVF,

Yes, but others, who started as frustrated become to love the EVF when they found out that the good things about that VF (like see what you get, zoom in to help focus, etc) where better then they expected.

changed the flash mount,

That was done on request of many people under whome many professional reviewers, that is the fact in this case. So Sony did listen to their users, but no they could not make everybody happy!

released the awful A58 as the only low/middle range body

Well the A58 is an inbetween camera, in between the A37 and the A57 so maybe not easy to understand, but it takes great pictures I have seen.

and now many are talking about selling all their equipment and moving to another brand as Sony is not currently showing any real ongoing commitment to A-mount in spite of promises to do so in many interviews last year

Well people like that are not thinking in the right way. The A99 came in september 2012, cameras in this class come every 2-3 years, so there is no realy need for a successor now, is there? The A58 came feb 2013, cameras like this come every year, so Sony might launch the successor soon! Some people are easy to upset!

The Minolta glass is indeed liked (not least by me!), but prices are dropping on it at the moment, in case you hadn't noticed

I own both the LA-EA1 and LA-EA2 A-mount to Emount adaptors and frankly they are not particularly good and certainly not 'superbly engineered' as you suggest. They work, but they could work a lot better if Sony changed a few things and they are no replacement for a dedicated A-mount body

What is not good about the adapters? I own the LA-EA1 and it is great. It works like a sharm when you are manual focussing.

Regarding the A5000, I made it perfectly clear that I was discussing what options are open for NEX users in the new range and saying that the A5000 (which is NOT a starter camera - that is the A3000) is of no interest to us, which leaves only the rumoured NEX-7 replacement as a body of possible interest... and if that is not what we want then many will probably leave with Fuji being one of the obvious destinations

Nex users can stay with their excelent cameras without buying every year a new one. The Nex 5r was replaced with the Nex 5t in september, so the successor of that camera may come in september. So people with the Nex 5x can wait until then, go to the Nex 5t, go with the Nex 7 (successor) Nex 6(successor) or the A5000. there is a lot to choose from f they want a new camera.

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socode
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

Regarding the A5000, I made it perfectly clear that I was discussing what options are open for NEX users in the new range and saying that the A5000 (which is NOT a starter camera - that is the A3000) is of no interest to us, which leaves only the rumoured NEX-7 replacement as a body of possible interest... and if that is not what we want then many will probably leave with Fuji being one of the obvious destinations

OK, so let me think this through.

A whole bunch of users with 1-2 year old cameras will hop between systems every time one manufacturer "leapfrogs" the others according to a constantly-shifting wishlist, they'll spend more of their disposable income on cameras and lenses, and you think camera manufacturers would consider that a downside?

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jpr2
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re: lots of IFs, but... one thing in particular...
In reply to tecnoworld, 11 months ago

tecnoworld wrote:

A7000 is rumored to have much faster af than previous models

...could you pls. post the link to this specific rumor??

jpr2

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parallaxproblem
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to socode, 11 months ago

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

Regarding the A5000, I made it perfectly clear that I was discussing what options are open for NEX users in the new range and saying that the A5000 (which is NOT a starter camera - that is the A3000) is of no interest to us, which leaves only the rumoured NEX-7 replacement as a body of possible interest... and if that is not what we want then many will probably leave with Fuji being one of the obvious destinations

OK, so let me think this through.

A whole bunch of users with 1-2 year old cameras will hop between systems every time one manufacturer "leapfrogs" the others according to a constantly-shifting wishlist, they'll spend more of their disposable income on cameras and lenses, and you think camera manufacturers would consider that a downside?

Oh dear, we are being deliberately dense, aren't we?

NEX was released in 2010, means it's coming-up for four years old now and many of us have been there since the begining, others have joined en-route

NEX users buy lenses, accessories and new bodies on a regular basis which makes them high-value customers to Sony. Sony are foolish because their customer model does not allow them to recognise this reality (this also applies to A-mount owners)

If Sony are not obviously releasing the bodies that NEX owners want to buy, particularly after cancelling the NEX product name and re-organising the E-mount product range, then those users will probably leave and go to another brand - some rather high-profile members of this forum are already talking about doing that. If that happens then Sony will lose a lot of high value customers. If they were sensible they would consider it a downside, but I suspect they won't even notice as they don't think of customers in that way and instead will just see an inexplicable (to them) underperformance in APS-C Emount camera/lens/accessory sales

Does that help your thinking?

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Greynerd
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Re: Dennis: I feel perfectly at loss = the a3000 was a disaster not a glory for S.
In reply to jpr2, 11 months ago

I am not sure that litigation for selling something cheap is really going to work.

What costs are you talking about? I expect the development costs were low as the body is large so stock components could be used. You say faux DSLR but putting a central viewfinder in the middle of the body seems to necessitate the shape. Many CSC's are this shape and superzooms also.

If you want a rangefinder shape with a corner EVF Sony do 2 models so why this hysteria has been generated over the very affordable high resolution A3000 because it happens to look like a DSLR is a bit of a mystery.

jpr2 wrote:

errr? what was so brilliant about the a3000? a faux-DSLR form factor? or maybe the price point, but then why was it land-slided (perhaps mud-slided would be a better description) almost immediately after introduction to a dumping point = it is a surprising really why others didn't go into litigation with S. for employing unfair marketing practices and selling below costs?!! (but maybe the cost ARE this low, and then it is a true eye-opener by how much end-users are gutted price-wise).

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miro3
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Re: re: lots of IFs, but... one thing in particular...
In reply to jpr2, 11 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

A7000 is rumored to have much faster af than previous models

...could you pls. post the link to this specific rumor??

good point.

But what good are rumors?

Let's see the real specs!

jpr2

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Dennis
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Re: Dennis: I feel perfectly at loss = the a3000 was a disaster not a glory for S.
In reply to jpr2, 11 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

This seemed like such a brilliant move until reality set in. The EVF and LCD are so bad that it's hard to imagine anyone preferring this camera to a D3100. I've never seen a Sony camera go on fire sale so quickly. Right idea; wrong product.

errr? what was so brilliant about the a3000?

Brilliant in an obvious sort of way ... to my mind, CSCs were struggling because the ones that compete in the mass market laced VFs and the ones that compete on usability were too expensive. Even the Panasonic G series is still more expensive than DSLR kits. The A3000 had the potential to be the first CSC to compete with the likes of $550 Rebels and D3100 kits.

or maybe the price point, but then why was it land-slided (perhaps mud-slided would be a better description) almost immediately after introduction to a dumping point

Like I said, seemed like a brilliant idea until reality set it - reality being that the EVF and LCD were so bad that almost noone would want one. (I know a handful of bargain hunters who see the value in the 20MP sensor are happy with it; especially if they got it at fire sale pricing, but the consumer who picked one up and compared it to a cheap DSLR was bound to find it crummy ... I waited to try one before coming to that conclusion, even though the spec was unimpressive).

or... maybe it is = by showing the real manufacturers' costs??

Could be that they're more expensive than the popular myth suggests ("mirrorless is better because it's cheaper to produce without all those moving parts")

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EinsteinsGhost
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In reply to socode, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

Regarding the A5000, I made it perfectly clear that I was discussing what options are open for NEX users in the new range and saying that the A5000 (which is NOT a starter camera - that is the A3000) is of no interest to us, which leaves only the rumoured NEX-7 replacement as a body of possible interest... and if that is not what we want then many will probably leave with Fuji being one of the obvious destinations

OK, so let me think this through.

A whole bunch of users with 1-2 year old cameras will hop between systems every time one manufacturer "leapfrogs" the others according to a constantly-shifting wishlist, they'll spend more of their disposable income on cameras and lenses, and you think camera manufacturers would consider that a downside?

Apparently, some do operate that way.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: re: lots of IFs, but... one thing in particular...
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

A7000 is rumored to have much faster af than previous models

...could you pls. post the link to this specific rumor??

good point.

But what good are rumors?

Let's see the real specs!

jpr2

What good are specs and marketing statements? Let us look at results.

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miro3
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Re: re: lots of IFs, but... one thing in particular...
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 11 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

A7000 is rumored to have much faster af than previous models

...could you pls. post the link to this specific rumor??

good point.

But what good are rumors?

Let's see the real specs!

jpr2

What good are specs and marketing statements? Let us look at results.

Even better

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Greynerd
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Re: Dennis: I feel perfectly at loss = the a3000 was a disaster not a glory for S.
In reply to Dennis, 11 months ago

It is difficult to think of another area of technology where where replacing mechanical components with electronic systems does not decrease costs. If it does not it begs the question what is the point? It is probably why Canon are still selling shed loads of DSLR's as there has been no economic advantage demonstrated in mirrorless sytems at all. Also with DSLR's you get fast dedicated focusing sensors thrown in also helping decrease the costs in the inverse mirror view of the world that is mirrorless finance.

Edit: Probably mirrorless is a solution which has just failed to persuade people that there was a problem.

Dennis wrote:

Could be that they're more expensive than the popular myth suggests ("mirrorless is better because it's cheaper to produce without all those moving parts")

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EinsteinsGhost
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In reply to Greynerd, 11 months ago

It is difficult to think of another area of technology where where replacing mechanical components with electronic systems does not decrease costs. If it does not it begs the question what is the point? It is probably why Canon are still selling shed loads of DSLR's as there has been no economic advantage demonstrated in mirrorless sytems at all. Also with DSLR's you get fast dedicated focusing sensors thrown in also helping decrease the costs in the inverse mirror view of the world that is mirrorless finance.

Edit: Probably mirrorless is a solution which has just failed to persuade people that there was a problem.

Dennis wrote:

Could be that they're more expensive than the popular myth suggests ("mirrorless is better because it's cheaper to produce without all those moving parts")

Not too long ago, film vs digital were a part of similar discussion, right down to pricing. DSLRs basically came down in price and they happen to be mostly legacy cameras.

Mirrorless technology is going through a phase to establish itself, with areas that need to be developed along with lenses to go with it. Sooner or later, there will be stabilization. Think about it... even APSc mirrorless cameras are less than four years old.

But no better argument can be made on the subject but by time. To assume either way would be simply being short sighted. Logically speaking, if I were to bet, it would be on digital becoming more digital and right down to eliminating the mirror. The pro mirror noise will subside with it.

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socode
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

Regarding the A5000, I made it perfectly clear that I was discussing what options are open for NEX users in the new range and saying that the A5000 (which is NOT a starter camera - that is the A3000) is of no interest to us, which leaves only the rumoured NEX-7 replacement as a body of possible interest... and if that is not what we want then many will probably leave with Fuji being one of the obvious destinations

OK, so let me think this through.

A whole bunch of users with 1-2 year old cameras will hop between systems every time one manufacturer "leapfrogs" the others according to a constantly-shifting wishlist, they'll spend more of their disposable income on cameras and lenses, and you think camera manufacturers would consider that a downside?

Oh dear, we are being deliberately dense, aren't we?

Calm down. It's a discussion forum. It's not clear to me what your personal preferences are nor why they are automatically of high commercial concern to Sony. Harmless to discuss it a bit, isn't it?

NEX was released in 2010, means it's coming-up for four years old now and many of us have been there since the begining,

Yes, including me.

others have joined en-route

NEX users buy lenses, accessories and new bodies on a regular basis which makes them high-value customers to Sony. Sony are foolish because their customer model does not allow them to recognise this reality (this also applies to A-mount owners)

If Sony are not obviously releasing the bodies that NEX owners want to buy, particularly after cancelling the NEX product name and re-organising the E-mount product range,

So to replay that, they've undergone a branding exercise, and they've brought out new APS-C and Full-Frame cameras that use the same E mount. OK, gotcha.

then those users will probably leave and go to another brand - some rather high-profile members of this forum are already talking about doing that. If that happens then Sony will lose a lot of high value customers. If they were sensible they would consider it a downside, but I suspect they won't even notice as they don't think of customers in that way and instead will just see an inexplicable (to them) underperformance in APS-C Emount camera/lens/accessory

Perhaps, or perhaps they're trying to make E-mount a premier FF category and had no idea how many users would want to stick on APS-C nor what features would unite that set of users. I don't work for Sony, I don't know their roadmap or sales actual/projected, and I'm still none the wiser as to what you want nor why you can't upgrade to e.g. a NEX-7 equivalent until it has a successor, if you have a 4 year old NEX-5.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to hyenadog, 11 months ago

I think Sony will prioritize NEX-6/7 replacement and will follow up with NEX-5T replacement, at $1000 and $800 respectively. There may be a more specialized model at the top end as an "r" but still below a7.

This itself is kinda funny that Olympus has priced EM1 with a m43 sensor above that and this Fuji is higher still. I am assuming though that $1700 is body only which is a7 territory. But we expect Sony to sell at a low price while expecting feature and performance match or to beat them.

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captura
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Re: Dennis: I feel perfectly at loss = the a3000 was a disaster not a glory for S.
In reply to Greynerd, 11 months ago

Greynerd wrote:

I am not sure that litigation for selling something cheap is really going to work.

What costs are you talking about? I expect the development costs were low as the body is large so stock components could be used. You say faux DSLR but putting a central viewfinder in the middle of the body seems to necessitate the shape. Many CSC's are this shape and superzooms also.

If you want a rangefinder shape with a corner EVF Sony do 2 models so why this hysteria has been generated over the very affordable high resolution A3000 because it happens to look like a DSLR is a bit of a mystery.

ail wagging the dog?

There is nothing that dictates that the EVF must be central. In fact for a lot of users, the extreme lhs is preferable. So it must be STYLE that causes the designers to place it central with a hump, or LHS like NEX or GX7. Customers are buying the 'humped' cameras with central EVF because they prefer the style, for whatever reasons. So naturally the manufacturers must comply. It's a shame; quel domage!

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parallaxproblem
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to socode, 11 months ago

socode wrote:

I'm still none the wiser as to what you want nor why you can't upgrade to e.g. a NEX-7 equivalent until it has a successor, if you have a 4 year old NEX-5.

Does it matter what I personally want?

The users of a camera system bought into that system because it had certain things that appealed to them.  In the case of NEX, for a long time the USP's (Unique Selling Points) IMHO were:

- small body size which came from 'brick' format

- high quality of construction (partially metal body on NEX-5, almost fully metal body on NEX-7 and all lenses had metal bodies)

- ability to use legacy lenses

- various high tech features

The NEX range at the time of discontinuation had four cameras in it: NEX-3, NEX-5, NEX-6, NEX-7

With the new range it would seem that we are looking at 2 cameras instead:

- the NEX-3 and NEX-5 replaced by a NEX-3 level camera, the A5000

- if the rumours are true then NEX-6 and NEX-7 replaced by a NEX-6 level camera, I speculate the A7000

The A3000 is not a NEX replacement camera and there is no room between price level of A5000 and A7000 for a NEX-5 replacement

Therefore there appear to be no plans at moment for a NEX-5 or 'real' NEX-7 replacement at a similar price point so NEX users already see their options reduced.  I repeat that nobody with a NEX-5, NEX-5N or NEX-5T will be interested in the A5000 so all NEX-5, NEX-6 and NEX-7 users have to look at one camera... the NEX-7 replacement

If it is not a 'brick' format then the first USP in my list is lost...  hence my 'dump the hump' signature

If it has a 'NEX-6' level of construction then the second USP is lost for existing NEX-7 users

Doubtless it will support legacy lenses and have high tech features so the last two USP's remain but that is not enough to remain in a camera system in my opinion.  Waiting for a replacement is fine if you are sure a replacement is going to arrive, but Sony are refusing to give us any idea what the future plans are and are busy re-organising their product ranges at the moment so we are all completely in the dark and it is quite probable that no replacement will be arriving.  If a system is going in a direction you don't want then you need to start looking at alternatives quickly, particularly if you think that others are not going to like it either as you stand the risk of being left with valueless equipment and no future upgrade path if the producer's strategy fails as the owners of many 'orphaned' camera systems will tell you

What do I, personally, want?  OK, FWIW I want *real* replacements for the NEX-5 and NEX-6 and NEX-7 bodies (we gave the NEX-3 replacement now in the form of the A5000) which continue with the same basic characteristics (eg. 'brick' body format, quality of construction, price) but just add improved features (eg. AF, corrected firmware bugs etc) in the way that we as NEX users thought was going to happen prior to the the discontinuation of the NEX name and the 'faux-DSLR' styling of the A3000 and A7/r

Can I honestly be any clearer?

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EinsteinsGhost
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And yet Fuji chose central EVF
In reply to captura, 11 months ago

Greynerd wrote:

I am not sure that litigation for selling something cheap is really going to work.

What costs are you talking about? I expect the development costs were low as the body is large so stock components could be used. You say faux DSLR but putting a central viewfinder in the middle of the body seems to necessitate the shape. Many CSC's are this shape and superzooms also.

If you want a rangefinder shape with a corner EVF Sony do 2 models so why this hysteria has been generated over the very affordable high resolution A3000 because it happens to look like a DSLR is a bit of a mystery.

ail wagging the dog?

There is nothing that dictates that the EVF must be central. In fact for a lot of users, the extreme lhs is preferable. So it must be STYLE that causes the designers to place it central with a hump, or LHS like NEX or GX7. Customers are buying the 'humped' cameras with central EVF because they prefer the style, for whatever reasons. So naturally the manufacturers must comply. It's a shame; quel domage!

Parallax and you must be calling it a failure already.

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EinsteinsGhost
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But parallax's problem is that he/she likes the humped...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

socode wrote:

I'm still none the wiser as to what you want nor why you can't upgrade to e.g. a NEX-7 equivalent until it has a successor, if you have a 4 year old NEX-5.

Does it matter what I personally want?

The users of a camera system bought into that system because it had certain things that appealed to them.  In the case of NEX, for a long time the USP's (Unique Selling Points) IMHO were:

- small body size which came from 'brick' format

- high quality of construction (partially metal body on NEX-5, almost fully metal body on NEX-7 and all lenses had metal bodies)

- ability to use legacy lenses

- various high tech features

The NEX range at the time of discontinuation had four cameras in it: NEX-3, NEX-5, NEX-6, NEX-7

With the new range it would seem that we are looking at 2 cameras instead:

- the NEX-3 and NEX-5 replaced by a NEX-3 level camera, the A5000

- if the rumours are true then NEX-6 and NEX-7 replaced by a NEX-6 level camera, I speculate the A7000

The A3000 is not a NEX replacement camera and there is no room between price level of A5000 and A7000 for a NEX-5 replacement

Therefore there appear to be no plans at moment for a NEX-5 or 'real' NEX-7 replacement at a similar price point so NEX users already see their options reduced.  I repeat that nobody with a NEX-5, NEX-5N or NEX-5T will be interested in the A5000 so all NEX-5, NEX-6 and NEX-7 users have to look at one camera... the NEX-7 replacement

If it is not a 'brick' format then the first USP in my list is lost...  hence my 'dump the hump' signature

If it has a 'NEX-6' level of construction then the second USP is lost for existing NEX-7 users

Doubtless it will support legacy lenses and have high tech features so the last two USP's remain but that is not enough to remain in a camera system in my opinion.  Waiting for a replacement is fine if you are sure a replacement is going to arrive, but Sony are refusing to give us any idea what the future plans are and are busy re-organising their product ranges at the moment so we are all completely in the dark and it is quite probable that no replacement will be arriving.  If a system is going in a direction you don't want then you need to start looking at alternatives quickly, particularly if you think that others are not going to like it either as you stand the risk of being left with valueless equipment and no future upgrade path if the producer's strategy fails as the owners of many 'orphaned' camera systems will tell you

What do I, personally, want?  OK, FWIW I want *real* replacements for the NEX-5 and NEX-6 and NEX-7 bodies (we gave the NEX-3 replacement now in the form of the A5000) which continue with the same basic characteristics (eg. 'brick' body format, quality of construction, price) but just add improved features (eg. AF, corrected firmware bugs etc) in the way that we as NEX users thought was going to happen prior to the the discontinuation of the NEX name and the 'faux-DSLR' styling of the A3000 and A7/r

Can I honestly be any clearer?

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XT1.

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Dennis
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Re: Dennis: I feel perfectly at loss = the a3000 was a disaster not a glory for S.
In reply to Greynerd, 11 months ago

Greynerd wrote:

It is difficult to think of another area of technology where where replacing mechanical components with electronic systems does not decrease costs. If it does not it begs the question what is the point?

Well, mirrorless certainly has various pros & cons. But other than compactness, much is lost on the consumer. I'd love to know just how expensive high res EVFs are, since that seems to be where the price jumps so much.

It is probably why Canon are still selling shed loads of DSLR's as there has been no economic advantage demonstrated in mirrorless sytems at all.

Right. Lenses are pricey, too. They tend to be of newer designs ... some with IS, with silent focusing, but looking at modest f/1.8 primes and kit zooms, it seems that CSC lenses cost more. Again, there may be inherent differences that explain the cost, but don't necessarily justify it to the consumer. Though despite this, there have been some great fire sale deals on various CSCs, from NEX to m43 to Nikon 1.

Edit: Probably mirrorless is a solution which has just failed to persuade people that there was a problem.

It's certainly convinced some people that there was a huge problem ! DSLRs are old technology from the 1700s that desperately needs to be made a part of ancient history, to hear them talk ! (They don't seem to object to Leica still making digital rangefinders, though ... it's just moving mirrors that they object to).

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Dennis
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Re: Its a phase
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 11 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

But no better argument can be made on the subject but by time.

Right. CSCs with built in EVFs are fairly new and ultra high res EVFs themselves are fairly new. My only point in this was that it's premature for the DSLRs-must-die squad to argue that mirrorless is better because it's cheaper. (It may be simpler and it may or may not be cheaper to produce, but it's not cheaper to the consumer yet). Of course, to the extent that cheaper & simpler are beneficial, nothing prevents mirrorless in legacy DSLR systems, giving them the same benefits. (I think terminology gets interesting as 'mirrorless' can differentiate a camera from reflex cameras in the same line - like a mirrorless EOS Rebel versus a DSLR ... while CSC might be used to differntiate reduced registration distance systems like e-mount, NX, EOS-M, m43, Fuji X from the legacy DSLR systems for purposes of reporting sales and talking about the benefits of the shorter mount). SLTs already throw a small monkey wrench in the works, but once Nikon or Canon release mirrorless models compatible with their SLR lineups, the meaning of the word mirrorless will become more vague.

To assume either way would be simply being short sighted. Logically speaking, if I were to bet, it would be on digital becoming more digital and right down to eliminating the mirror. The pro mirror noise will subside with it.

The ratio of mirrorless to reflex in the market will certainly increase. I make no predictions as to where it levels off. A lot depends on what Canon & Nikon do in their SLR lineups - if they product mirrorless models leaving only a couple reflex bodies - then the ratio of mirrorless to reflex will ultimately end up very high. The ratio of CSC to legacy SLR systems will increase, too, over time, and again, I don't guess as to actual shape of the curve.

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