a lot of pressure on Sony now ...

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
silvrmn
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to stevo23, 11 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

In what way?

The Nex-7 with 24Mp still trumps in IQ?

I guess it needs a hump then after all?

No hump!

Just:

- fast autofocus

- fast update of the EVF and LCD (the Fuji X-T1 has a display lag for the EVF and LCD of only 0.005 seconds vs. X-E2: 0.05s, and Olympus OM-D E-M1: 0.029s (not sure what these are for the Sony cameras)

Big deal. This starts to become wearisome. Fast autofocus is not important for 99% out there.

Woo hoo! I'm the one in a hundred who fast AF is important for!!!!

Hold on... or are you the one in a hundred who it isn't important for?

Ha ha!

I think I'm in the majority. My point being that during the "golden age of photography", we spent our years with split screen focusing and got great results. When autofocus came along, it really wasn't anything to scream about. Eventually, it got fast and silent.

But it's still only marginally reliable at achieving critical sharpness no matter how fast. You've got to fire off several shots to be sure you get one sharp one. This is good for sports and action work, but after that, we don't need it at all. Even so, somehow, we've decided to rely on it and we're being enticed to chuck our old systems over a millisecond difference in speed.

This constant posturing over a millisecond here or a micro-detent there is really very tiresome. It strikes me that the ability to make any significant changes in image quality is now almost zero. All we're seeing are the proverbial gilding of the pig's ear. This is not a sustainable model. Contraction is around the corner.

One gilds a lily or makes a silk purse of a sow's ear.  One does not gild a sow's ear or make a silk purse of a lily.  For some reason little things like this leap out at me more as I get older.  What's the point in having really nice idioms if we misuse them?  Are we all going to Hell on a horse of a different color?

Wait, did I write that? I must be getting a cold or something. The Fuji is nice, but I'm not sure it's quite a rival to the A7 in the image making department. It's more of a rival to the Df.

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A lot of unnecessary anxienty ... n/t
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago
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new boyz
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago

No pressure. NEX-6/7 concept is just works.

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GaryW
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Re: Pat: quite a mixed bag
In reply to quezra, 11 months ago

quezra wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

judging by pre-orders bar at 28.3% (more than 6% higher than A7) to the right of my editing window on DPR, the XT-1 is an instant hit

Lol that's not a pre-order bar (why would there be pre-orders for the A7 when it's been out 2 months?). It's a 7-day count of most-clicked on cameras at DPR. You'll notice it pretty much aligns with all the newest announcements, up to 7 days old. A7 was as high as 43% at one point, maxed at 7 days after the review came out (unsurprisingly).

I had noticed that it was far above the other cameras for days.  Should we have trolled the Nikon boards since the A7 was more popular this past week?   Of course not.  So now that the A7 is not the most-clicked on DPR, we shouldn't have to hear how much the next flavor-of-the-week is "better" because people are curious about the new shiny.

But if the sidebar is the measurement of success, the A7 must have been a massive hit.  And it probably has been.  I bet Sony makes more models that are similar, with a center hump, just like the competition.

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Gary W.

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GaryW
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Re: Dennis: I feel perfectly at loss = the a3000 was a disaster not a glory for S.
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

but maybe the cost ARE this low, and then it is a true eye-opener by how much end-users are gutted price-wise

I think that is much more likely - compare the construction and component cost of a mirrorless camera with a DSLR

I've long thought that this is the goal of going mirrorless -- reduce the complexity and thus various costs.  As far as I can tell, the only "extra" cost to mirrorless is the EVF.  If you leave it out, like with the A5000, it should be pretty cheap, but you have more complex DSLRs selling for less!  How is that?  Are manufacturers taking a loss on entry-level DSLRs, hoping to get people locked into a platform?  The ol' give the razor away for free (or cheap) strategy in order to sell razor blades?  This is how they sell videogame consoles, except for the Wii (which had enough older, cheaper technology to allow it to be sold at a profit).

But the A3000 is super-cheap.  Maybe having the low-res EVF and LCD really does keep the costs low.   Aside from the A3000, what should Sony do?  Make DSLRs?  They've tried that...

DSLR has three separate light paths

- lens to sensor

- lens to focus-screen via mirror

- lens to PDAF sensors via principal and secondary mirror

If any of these is out of sync with the other then the camera does not focus correctly - this requires precision engineering and good quality control, both of which are expensive

In a mirrorless camera all you need to do is position the sensor centrally and parallel in relation to the mount and that is the only precision necessary...

DSLR contains pentaprism (or pentamirror), PDAF array and mirror assembly which are precision components with a non-trivial compnent cost

Many Mirrorless cameras do not even contain an EVF so those have no requirement for the VF assmbly either whereas that needs to exist in all DSLRs

Otherwise shutter and other electronics will be pretty similar

And yet the 20MP A5000 with kit lens (but no VF) RRP is set at $600 whereas the 24MP Nikon 3300 DSLR with kit lens RRP is set at $660!

Some serious 'mirrorless gouging' going on there...

It might also be that "rangefinder style" ILC cameras don't sell in as high numbers and need to sell for a bit more.  Or maybe Sony is actually making a profit.

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blue_skies
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Re: Pat: quite a mixed bag
In reply to GaryW, 11 months ago

GaryW wrote:

quezra wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

judging by pre-orders bar at 28.3% (more than 6% higher than A7) to the right of my editing window on DPR, the XT-1 is an instant hit

Lol that's not a pre-order bar (why would there be pre-orders for the A7 when it's been out 2 months?). It's a 7-day count of most-clicked on cameras at DPR. You'll notice it pretty much aligns with all the newest announcements, up to 7 days old. A7 was as high as 43% at one point, maxed at 7 days after the review came out (unsurprisingly).

I had noticed that it was far above the other cameras for days. Should we have trolled the Nikon boards since the A7 was more popular this past week? Of course not. So now that the A7 is not the most-clicked on DPR, we shouldn't have to hear how much the next flavor-of-the-week is "better" because people are curious about the new shiny.

But if the sidebar is the measurement of success, the A7 must have been a massive hit. And it probably has been. I bet Sony makes more models that are similar, with a center hump, just like the competition.

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Gary W.

Lol, did you read the XT-1 preview? Sensor size is secondary - the race is now about the EVF viewing size.

The hump is there to stay....

BTW - I believe that 43% is a new high, especially when considering that the review was late (many others had already been posted).

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captura
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to silvrmn, 11 months ago

silvrmn wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

In what way?

The Nex-7 with 24Mp still trumps in IQ?

I guess it needs a hump then after all?

No hump!

Just:

- fast autofocus

- fast update of the EVF and LCD (the Fuji X-T1 has a display lag for the EVF and LCD of only 0.005 seconds vs. X-E2: 0.05s, and Olympus OM-D E-M1: 0.029s (not sure what these are for the Sony cameras)

Big deal. This starts to become wearisome. Fast autofocus is not important for 99% out there.

Woo hoo! I'm the one in a hundred who fast AF is important for!!!!

Hold on... or are you the one in a hundred who it isn't important for?

Ha ha!

I think I'm in the majority. My point being that during the "golden age of photography", we spent our years with split screen focusing and got great results. When autofocus came along, it really wasn't anything to scream about. Eventually, it got fast and silent.

But it's still only marginally reliable at achieving critical sharpness no matter how fast. You've got to fire off several shots to be sure you get one sharp one. This is good for sports and action work, but after that, we don't need it at all. Even so, somehow, we've decided to rely on it and we're being enticed to chuck our old systems over a millisecond difference in speed.

This constant posturing over a millisecond here or a micro-detent there is really very tiresome. It strikes me that the ability to make any significant changes in image quality is now almost zero. All we're seeing are the proverbial gilding of the pig's ear. This is not a sustainable model. Contraction is around the corner.

One gilds a lily or makes a silk purse of a sow's ear. One does not gild a sow's ear or make a silk purse of a lily. For some reason little things like this leap out at me more as I get older. What's the point in having really nice idioms if we misuse them? Are we all going to Hell on a horse of a different color?

Wait, did I write that? I must be getting a cold or something. The Fuji is nice, but I'm not sure it's quite a rival to the A7 in the image making department. It's more of a rival to the Df.

I recently picked up a Canon Rebel just to see what it was like, compared to my NEX cameras. The AF accuracy is far worse than my 5R with PDAF, but AF speed is much better. Yes, split-screen MF was the best.

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Re: re: all the good reasons, but... there is more to it, much more...
In reply to jpr2, 11 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

I actually think the Fuji releasing the X-T1 with the 16mp sensor helped Sony tremendously. The X-T1 looks like a nice camera and the lenses are excellent but many people that decided to go with a NEX 7 before are going to struggle to "settle" for the X-T1's sensor. I use that term loosely since I know that some people will reply to tell me how little difference there is and how great the Fuji sensor is, etc. But that doesn't really change my point that it can be hard to go backwards when you've experienced what the NEX 7 can do. So, IMO, the NEX 6/7 successor only needs to improve AF, keep a 24mp (or more) sensor with improved high ISO performance, and add some of the expected features. If Fuji had released the X-T1 with a 24mp sensor then Sony would be in for a much bigger fight IMO. Of course Fuji will convert some NEX users but I don't think it will be as many as it could have been.

That being said, the EVF, weather sealing and tilt screen are great moves by Fuji and I'll be interested to see the X-Pro 2 or the X-T2 with a new sensor.

  • I was immediately taken by XT-1's specs, design, the level of possible customization, etc;
  • but... it seems overpriced for what it offers (yes, I do know its being compared to the OMG-E1, but Oly's flagship is overpriced too IMO);
  • it is pretty huge in comparison to Nex-7 (XT-1 has actually bigger front profile than even Eos 100d, so... if one aims at a small body with a decent AF the choice is not that clear);
  • in contrast to Nex'en XT-1 can's mount smartly (with IS enabled, EXIFs and aperture control) any of the EF/EF-S lenses of Canon;
  • and indeed... the sensor's resolution is effectively lower than its nominal 16 Mpx due to the sensels' layout;

but... should the AF prove itself to be DSLR's level quick and accurate, the temptation might be too much to withstand despite all the Nex-7 advantages !!

jpr2

I suppose the biggest news is to-day's announcement of the Oly E-M10 and it might now be the most clicked-on. You did not bring this one to the discussion.

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jpr2
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re: all the good reasons, but... there is more to it, much more...
In reply to captura, 11 months ago

captura wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

I actually think the Fuji releasing the X-T1 with the 16mp sensor helped Sony tremendously. The X-T1 looks like a nice camera and the lenses are excellent but many people that decided to go with a NEX 7 before are going to struggle to "settle" for the X-T1's sensor. I use that term loosely since I know that some people will reply to tell me how little difference there is and how great the Fuji sensor is, etc. But that doesn't really change my point that it can be hard to go backwards when you've experienced what the NEX 7 can do. So, IMO, the NEX 6/7 successor only needs to improve AF, keep a 24mp (or more) sensor with improved high ISO performance, and add some of the expected features. If Fuji had released the X-T1 with a 24mp sensor then Sony would be in for a much bigger fight IMO. Of course Fuji will convert some NEX users but I don't think it will be as many as it could have been.

That being said, the EVF, weather sealing and tilt screen are great moves by Fuji and I'll be interested to see the X-Pro 2 or the X-T2 with a new sensor.

  • I was immediately taken by XT-1's specs, design, the level of possible customization, etc;
  • but... it seems overpriced for what it offers (yes, I do know its being compared to the OMG-E1, but Oly's flagship is overpriced too IMO);
  • it is pretty huge in comparison to Nex-7 (XT-1 has actually bigger front profile than even Eos 100d, so... if one aims at a small body with a decent AF the choice is not that clear);
  • in contrast to Nex'en XT-1 can's mount smartly (with IS enabled, EXIFs and aperture control) any of the EF/EF-S lenses of Canon;
  • and indeed... the sensor's resolution is effectively lower than its nominal 16 Mpx due to the sensels' layout;

but... should the AF prove itself to be DSLR's level quick and accurate, the temptation might be too much to withstand despite all the Nex-7 advantages !!

jpr2

I suppose the biggest news is to-day's announcement of the Oly E-M10 and it might now be the most clicked-on. You did not bring this one to the discussion.

you act surprised?

but...

  • none of the OMG E-Mx series attracts me in a slightest - I-st of all they're not APS-C (so I'm not even checking them up all that carefully);
  • all are bigger than Nex-7, even the smallest E10: just compare: 119x82x46 mm of E10 vs 119.9x66.9x42.6 mm of N7;
  • but above all they're all humped, yet... without any redeeming characteristics of XT-1

jpr2

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salla30
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agree
In reply to stevo23, 11 months ago

agreed. I would far rather see developments in accuracy of autofocus; and an ability to easily select and lock on to a "target" more accurately, than shaving milliseconds off the speed (and perhaps at the expense of accuracy)

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jpr2
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David: do not agree...
In reply to salla30, 11 months ago

salla30 wrote:

agreed. I would far rather see developments in accuracy of autofocus; and an ability to easily select and lock on to a "target" more accurately, than shaving milliseconds off the speed (and perhaps at the expense of accuracy)

David

  • ...after about two decades of shooting film Eos'es I went with a Rebel (it was 400d), and was dearly disappointed with both AF speed and accuracy;
  • few years latter the 40d followed = greatly improved accuracy but... still not enough speed;
  • then finally (slightly more than 4 years ago) the 7d arrived = a digital body I was waiting for all that time - fast and also accurate, but... by then it felt too heavy and too big ;
  • so... the N7 followed, dismally slow AF'er, and the whole cycle started to repeat itself, again - endless wait for them to do it right... arrrrgh!!

so, here we're, waiting for the Nex-7 mk-II, and keeping fingers crossed that perhaps finally it will be the NEX akin to the legendary 7d's AF'ing performance (fat chance for that of course, but... hope is free, right?? )

jpr2

PS and the meantime Canon decided to screw the outstanding 7d's AF when they released 70d - supposedly with exactly the same AF hardware, but crippled in FW with several crucial AF features stripped/disabled - most importantly the spot-AF is no more present !!

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captura
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Re: re: all the good reasons, but... there is more to it, much more...
In reply to jpr2, 11 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

captura wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

I actually think the Fuji releasing the X-T1 with the 16mp sensor helped Sony tremendously. The X-T1 looks like a nice camera and the lenses are excellent but many people that decided to go with a NEX 7 before are going to struggle to "settle" for the X-T1's sensor. I use that term loosely since I know that some people will reply to tell me how little difference there is and how great the Fuji sensor is, etc. But that doesn't really change my point that it can be hard to go backwards when you've experienced what the NEX 7 can do. So, IMO, the NEX 6/7 successor only needs to improve AF, keep a 24mp (or more) sensor with improved high ISO performance, and add some of the expected features. If Fuji had released the X-T1 with a 24mp sensor then Sony would be in for a much bigger fight IMO. Of course Fuji will convert some NEX users but I don't think it will be as many as it could have been.

That being said, the EVF, weather sealing and tilt screen are great moves by Fuji and I'll be interested to see the X-Pro 2 or the X-T2 with a new sensor.

  • I was immediately taken by XT-1's specs, design, the level of possible customization, etc;
  • but... it seems overpriced for what it offers (yes, I do know its being compared to the OMG-E1, but Oly's flagship is overpriced too IMO);
  • it is pretty huge in comparison to Nex-7 (XT-1 has actually bigger front profile than even Eos 100d, so... if one aims at a small body with a decent AF the choice is not that clear);
  • in contrast to Nex'en XT-1 can's mount smartly (with IS enabled, EXIFs and aperture control) any of the EF/EF-S lenses of Canon;
  • and indeed... the sensor's resolution is effectively lower than its nominal 16 Mpx due to the sensels' layout;

but... should the AF prove itself to be DSLR's level quick and accurate, the temptation might be too much to withstand despite all the Nex-7 advantages !!

jpr2

I suppose the biggest news is to-day's announcement of the Oly E-M10 and it might now be the most clicked-on. You did not bring this one to the discussion.

you act surprised?

but...

  • none of the OMG E-Mx series attracts me in a slightest - I-st of all they're not APS-C (so I'm not even checking them up all that carefully);
  • all are bigger than Nex-7, even the smallest E10: just compare: 119x82x46 mm of E10 vs 119.9x66.9x42.6 mm of N7;
  • but above all they're all humped, yet... without any redeeming characteristics of XT-1

jpr2

Although my main interest lies in NEX cameras, I don't ignore Fuji X, M43, Canon Rebel, Nikon 1, and compact cameras, and actually own examples of these, too. Humped or un-humped.

To each his own.

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captura
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Re: David: do not agree...
In reply to jpr2, 11 months ago

And I am hoping it is the NEX- type rangefinder style.

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dynaxx
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to sean lancaster, 11 months ago

there may be camera makers out there that try to trump a popular offering from the competition. Sony certainly never has. They plough their own furrow as you can see from the introduction of the A900, the RXI, SLT,  the Nex range and the A7000 They were groundbreakers but, sadly, groundbreaking doesn't always translate into profitability.

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parallaxproblem
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to dynaxx, 11 months ago

dynaxx wrote:

there may be camera makers out there that try to trump a popular offering from the competition. Sony certainly never has. They plough their own furrow as you can see from the introduction of the A900, the RXI, SLT, the Nex range and the A7000 They were groundbreakers but, sadly, groundbreaking doesn't always translate into profitability.

The problem is that innovation on its own is not enough, and in this market (ie. system cameras) can be very frustrating for end users

Sony are currently not being so innovative with the technologies they employ (the A7 has nothing new by itself... sensor and EVF are from A99 and many of the other components are from RX1) just the way they recombine existing components in order to create a new product.  The QX series is a perfect example where these lenses are basically re-packaged cybershot cameras

As systems' camera owners we want Sony to look after the cameras they are already making (ie. firmwares, lenses and accessories) and we want to see innovation in the form of better AF, better features and where possible miniturisation rather than replacing our cameras with things we would never have bought if they had been sold when we entered the system

Unfortunately Sony don't really recongnise the concept of a camera system and instead repackage what they have into something radically different to that which we currently have, in the hope that 'new' customers will buy the product, whatever the reaction of the older customers to the products

SLT was not necessarily a 'better' feature, it was a different one and Sony pretty quickly stopped giving their customers the option of the traditional OVF (before SLT had the time to offer OVF-level AF performance) and didn't really explain properly to their customers what the over-riding benefits of SLT were

NEX was a fantastic product concept but Sony never bothered to make the lenses their customers wanted for it as they simply didn't understand who was buying it, and then all of a sudden dropped the whole NEX name and range when they ran off to make an FF version and left us still wondering what is going to happen to this sector in the future (cue a hundred deranged fanboys and shills shrieking 'nothing has changed you .....')

RX1 was indeed an excellent product and it seems to have sold well, but this is NOT a camera system and so Sony know how to market this type of product and understand their relationship with RX1 customers...  ie. If they make something very different for the next model it will not 'upset' RX1 customers as they have no real investment in the RX1 system, and if Canon make a 'better' RX1 the current RX1 owners can immediately buy it as they have no lens systems etc to replace

The Fuji releases throw into sharp relief the diffrence in customer awareness between these two companies:  Fuji understand their customers and make products geared towards them.  Sony neither understand their customers, nor make products that their customers want...  the A7 is appealing mainly to non-NEX owners (not that many NEX owners seem to be buying them), and the A5000 is not intesting to anybody with a NEX-5 or better.  We (ie. NEX owners) are all now sitting, waiting for the NEX-7 replacement as it appears to be all we have left...  and if it is dull and has a 'hump' then Fuji already has a better 'humped' camera waiting for us (if we are forced to accept 'humps') and a superior lens range to go with it

Stupid Sony....

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jpr2
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re: a little glossa on pellicle mirrors
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

SLT was not necessarily a 'better' feature, it was a different one and Sony pretty quickly stopped giving their customers the option of the traditional OVF (before SLT had the time to offer OVF-level AF performance) and didn't really explain properly to their customers what the over-riding benefits of SLT were.

completely aside from possible merits and/or demerits of pellicle mirrors (dubbed SLT by Sony, but not invented there) it is perhaps a good opportunity to bring back the concept's memory from its not so very remote past:

"In 1972 Canon launched a high-speed F-1 model with a fixed pellicle mirror that allowed the user to see the subject at all times. Equipped with a motor drive the camera was able to shoot up to 9 frames per second, the highest speed of any motor driven camera at the time".

just saying

jpr2

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nevercat
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

dynaxx wrote:

there may be camera makers out there that try to trump a popular offering from the competition. Sony certainly never has. They plough their own furrow as you can see from the introduction of the A900, the RXI, SLT, the Nex range and the A7000 They were groundbreakers but, sadly, groundbreaking doesn't always translate into profitability.

Sony are currently not being so innovative with the technologies they employ (the A7 has nothing new by itself... sensor and EVF are from A99 and many of the other components are from RX1) just the way they recombine existing components in order to create a new product.

Strange, the created the smallest and lightest Full Frame camera with interchangeble Auto Focus lenses and you call it not inovative. Just lets look at the other brands. Is the Nikon Df so innovative (nothing realy new in that camera, just a reboxed older Nikon camera with a relativly slow AF module. Can you show me how Canon is inovative when they put the same sensor, in a slightly changed body, without enything realy new? And how inovative was Nilkon with the D610, just a fix to the D600, nothning inovative there.

A camera can be inovative just by putting things together in a new way. Canon did that with the SL1, use all existing parts and put in a smaller body. It was inovation to...

The QX series is a perfect example where these lenses are basically re-packaged cybershot cameras

Well here again, you get a completly new way of taking pictures, a very inovative way, never done before. And according to Sony they are selling well...

Unfortunately Sony don't really recongnise the concept of a camera system and instead repackage what they have into something radically different to that which we currently have, in the hope that 'new' customers will buy the product, whatever the reaction of the older customers to the products

Eh? Look at the Nex 5 series: It did not change that much when you look at it. The AF had been made better, some extra functions (like Wifi, apps, etc) has been added and FW updates have been issued. Exactly what you want and now you complain....

The A7(r) and the A3000 are new cameras in their range of E-mount cameras, both with a specific target group (People wanting small FF with High IQ and people wanting very cheap) So yes Sony is trying to get more people buying their stuf, but they are not forgetting the old (look how nice the A5000 looks)

SLT was not necessarily a 'better' feature, it was a different one and Sony pretty quickly stopped giving their customers the option of the traditional OVF (before SLT had the time to offer OVF-level AF performance) and didn't really explain properly to their customers what the over-riding benefits of SLT were

Lets face it the A-mount DSLR was not selling that great. Sony was not a big player in the feild, so they had to try something new and different. The SLT was that step. They came with one last DSLR after the A55 and it was not selling that well, the A55 was selling a lot better. It is logical that Sony decided to stop the DSLR design, two lines of the same kind of camera is to expensive...

NEX was a fantastic product concept but Sony never bothered to make the lenses their customers wanted for it

Well in fact Sony did listen very well in this department. At first people asked for smaller lenses, so came the pancake zoom, the pancaker 20mm and the 35mm lens. People wanted better lenses, so came the Zeiss 24mm, the Zeiss zoom the 35 and 55mm lensesand the G zoom lens.

There is a very nice range of lenses for the E-mount camera at this moment, and more are comming

For the FF E-mount camera Sony listened again and came with the High quality lenses first.

as they simply didn't understand who was buying it, and then all of a sudden dropped the whole NEX name and range when they ran off to make an FF version and left us still wondering what is going to happen to this sector in the future (cue a hundred deranged fanboys and shills shrieking 'nothing has changed you .....')

Stop with the dropping of the Nex range, Sony is showing that they support5 the E-mount range very well. New APS cameras are comming... So they did not ran off to make the FF they did it together with developping the APS version of their cameras. And stop calling people who are not telling what you are telling shills or fanboys, these people were right up till now...

The Fuji releases throw into sharp relief the diffrence in customer awareness between these two companies: Fuji understand their customers and make products geared towards them. Sony neither understand their customers, nor make products that their customers want... the A7 is appealing mainly to non-NEX owners (not that many NEX owners seem to be buying them),

Well where did you get the numbers of the sales of the A7(r) Reading this forum a lot of Nex users here now have the A7(r) or are serious thinking to buy one in the future. So I think this is your wishfull thinking instead of it being based on real numbers. And again with the A7(r) Sony realy listend to the Nex users who wanted a FF camera that was smaller then any existing one...

and the A5000 is not intesting to anybody with a NEX-5 or better.

No it is the Nex 3n successor. It is the lower end camera in the E-mount range. It is not aimed at the Nex 5 users, sony official said that at the announcement of the camera. When Canon brings out the successor to the SL1 camera the users of the 70D will not be interested in it as replacement for their 70D...

We (ie. NEX owners) are all now sitting, waiting for the NEX-7 replacement as it appears to be all we have left...

Well what about the Nex 5t (and the successor that might come at the end of the year)? It is not launched that long ago. In the Past the Nex 5 range had a lifespan of 1 year....

and if it is dull and has a 'hump' then Fuji already has a better 'humped' camera waiting for us (if we are forced to accept 'humps') and a superior lens range to go with it

How do you know that the Fuji humped camera will be better then the Nex 7 successor? Have you information to char? Or is this just missinformation?

Stupid Sony....

Or stupid people who are looking for some sort of conspiricy?

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DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Strange, you say that Sony must listen to their custommerrs, but there are custommers out there that want a hump. Maybe time to change your slogan?

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dynaxx
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

You come to this discussion with a narrow view of what camera buyers want based on your own, personal equipent and tastes. When you say "currently not so innovative" are you agreeing with me that Sony have been the leaders, not followers for the past 6/7 years ( which is more relevant to the thread ) ? Which Sony cameras do you think were responses to rival manufacturers' winners ?

Your point about Sony failing to recognise the importance of camera systems is not supported by the facts. Their current lens mount challenges come from their dogged adherence to the Minolta AF mount and its flange distance of 44.5 mm that goes back to the days of film and the Maxxum 7000 that was released in 1985. If you move in the Sony/Konica Minolta circles you will know how many lenses that are over 25 years old and still treasured by Sony and Konica Minolta camera owners ( and the high prices they command ). Sony's loyalty to these people after the dawn of mirrorless-ness is demonstrated by the superbly engineered Alpha to E Mount ( 18mm flange distance ) adapters.

When you say "the A5000 is not interesting to anybody with a NEX-5 or better" do you really think camera makers narrow down their target markets like that especially when this is a starter camera ?

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parallaxproblem
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to dynaxx, 11 months ago

dynaxx wrote:

You come to this discussion with a narrow view of what camera buyers want based on your own, personal equipent and tastes. When you say "currently not so innovative" are you agreeing with me that Sony have been the leaders, not followers for the past 6/7 years ( which is more relevant to the thread ) ? Which Sony cameras do you think were responses to rival manufacturers' winners ?

Your point about Sony failing to recognise the importance of camera systems is not supported by the facts. Their current lens mount challenges come from their dogged adherence to the Minolta AF mount and its flange distance of 44.5 mm that goes back to the days of film and the Maxxum 7000 that was released in 1985. If you move in the Sony/Konica Minolta circles you will know how many lenses that are over 25 years old and still treasured by Sony and Konica Minolta camera owners ( and the high prices they command ). Sony's loyalty to these people after the dawn of mirrorless-ness is demonstrated by the superbly engineered Alpha to E Mount ( 18mm flange distance ) adapters.

When you say "the A5000 is not interesting to anybody with a NEX-5 or better" do you really think camera makers narrow down their target markets like that especially when this is a starter camera ?

You make this very personal.  Did I offend you in some way by criticising Sony's behaviour?  That is rather sad...

I have been a Minolta user since 1983 and currently have an A900 and a large number of A-mount lenses (including several 'G' lenses) so I am well awre of that history.  I am also aware that many A-mount users are very frustated that Sony has abandoned OVF, changed the flash mount, released the awful A58 as the only low/middle range body and now many are talking about selling all their equipment and moving to another brand as Sony is not currently showing any real ongoing commitment to A-mount in spite of promises to do so in many interviews last year

The Minolta glass is indeed liked (not least by me!), but prices are dropping on it at the moment, in case you hadn't noticed

I own both the LA-EA1 and LA-EA2 A-mount to Emount adaptors and frankly they are not particularly good and certainly not 'superbly engineered' as you suggest.  They work, but they could work a lot better if Sony changed a few things and they are no replacement for a dedicated A-mount body

Regarding the A5000, I made it perfectly clear that I was discussing what options are open for NEX users in the new range and saying that the A5000 (which is NOT a starter camera - that is the A3000) is of no interest to us, which leaves only the rumoured NEX-7 replacement as a body of possible interest...  and if that is not what we want then many will probably leave with Fuji being one of the obvious destinations

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tecnoworld
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago

A7000 is rumored to have much faster af than previous models and, above all, is said to implement ibis. If the price point is 800$ and the sensor is at least as good as the one in nex7, I think it'll easy win over competitors.

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