a lot of pressure on Sony now ...

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
parallaxproblem
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to stevo23, 11 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

Sony doesn't have to respond. They already make better images with more resolution.

The X-T1 is really aimed at the Df, so it's not really Sony's fight in the first place.

The problem is that if the NEX-7 replacement isn't what is being hoped for then a lot of current NEX-7 owners probably are going to jump ship to the X-T1 - some are already talking about it

People have been waiting a long time for the NEX-7 to be updated (there have been two NEX-5 upgrades in the interim), but at the same time may current NEX-7 owners like the format, build quality and layout of the camera and want to see this maintained in any new model

A DSLR shaped body, or a body made out of plastic will, rightly or wrongly, not be well received by many current NEX owners

For the moment the NEX-5T is still being sold but there is also an open question if there will be a place for a replacement model for that in the new Ax000 system between the $600 A5000 and the $900 (including kit lens) A7000 (guessing name)

Yes, I see that, good point.

But I think the NEX-7 is fine enough as is. Granted, the native lens collection is spotty and at times dull, but the ability to adapt would satisfy me quite well. If you ask me, I would rather Sony spend time improving the native NEX lenses first.

Yes that is also important!

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quezra
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago

It's hilarious how the same people who have been hating on the A7 hump and dials for the last 3 months suddenly think a humped, manual-controls-heavy camera is suddenly a huge threat to Sony.  Even better when they think they have any credibility threatening to jump ship to Fuji if the streamlined 7 successor doesn't come out, when uncustomizable dials are even worse on the Fuji and the hump is just as 'unpocketable' as the A7.  The best part is, Sony have already responded to Fuji.  They have the DSLR-styling and superb dial operation camera in the A7, except hey it's FF!  Meanwhile, the 6/7 APS-C successor isn't even the flagship anymore.  Fuji is fighting the second tier of Sony cameras here.

I personally can't wait for the X-T1 to come out so that so that the likes of their ilk are gone over to Fuji where they will live happily ever after.

Ok... well there's also the alternative explanation that they are clutching for straws at any possible competition (no matter how much it contradicts their previous whining) in the desperate hope that Sony will move forward their launch date for the NEX-7 successor, and the wait is turning them into bipolar love-hate outbursts against Sony that make no sense whatsoever.  It's such a shame production schedules don't work based on what the competition are doing

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Donny out of Element here
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Re: what pressure?
In reply to forpetessake, 11 months ago

forpetessake wrote:

miro3 wrote:

How do you think Sony will respond?

Respond? Do they need to respond? To what, exactly?

To fast tracking AF with 8fps. To better high ISO performance of "old Sony 16Mp sensor". To better lens lineup. This 3 conditions are more than enough.

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hyenadog
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to quezra, 11 months ago

quezra wrote:

It's hilarious how the same people who have been hating on the A7 hump and dials for the last 3 months suddenly think a humped, manual-controls-heavy camera is suddenly a huge threat to Sony. Even better when they think they have any credibility threatening to jump ship to Fuji if the streamlined 7 successor doesn't come out, when uncustomizable dials are even worse on the Fuji and the hump is just as 'unpocketable' as the A7. The best part is, Sony have already responded to Fuji. They have the DSLR-styling and superb dial operation camera in the A7, except hey it's FF! Meanwhile, the 6/7 APS-C successor isn't even the flagship anymore. Fuji is fighting the second tier of Sony cameras here.

I personally can't wait for the X-T1 to come out so that so that the likes of their ilk are gone over to Fuji where they will live happily ever after.

Ok... well there's also the alternative explanation that they are clutching for straws at any possible competition (no matter how much it contradicts their previous whining) in the desperate hope that Sony will move forward their launch date for the NEX-7 successor, and the wait is turning them into bipolar love-hate outbursts against Sony that make no sense whatsoever. It's such a shame production schedules don't work based on what the competition are doing

who cares really, the more competition the better, that way Sony will have no choice other than to up its game or withdraw.

I only really bought the NEX because of its compact footprint with the 16-50 (as I already have dslr), so I prefer the "NEX" small footprint, but recognise it has been a commercial disaster for sony loss wise and that to cater to the US etc market they may need it in "hump format"  ... no biggie i'm getting a bit sick of the lack of AF/OIS bright tele lenses anyway

I'll see whether Nikon come out with something FF more in the svelte format of the A7

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GaryW
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to quezra, 11 months ago

quezra wrote:

It's hilarious how the same people who have been hating on the A7 hump and dials for the last 3 months suddenly think a humped, manual-controls-heavy camera is suddenly a huge threat to Sony.

You must be one of those "paid shills" that thinks that a Sony camera with a hump is better than a Fuji camera with a hump.  Everyone knows Fuji does humps better.   Or something.    No, seriously, I'm reading this thread wondering also just what is the logic here?

Even better when they think they have any credibility threatening to jump ship to Fuji if the streamlined 7 successor doesn't come out, when uncustomizable dials are even worse on the Fuji and the hump is just as 'unpocketable' as the A7. The best part is, Sony have already responded to Fuji. They have the DSLR-styling and superb dial operation camera in the A7, except hey it's FF! Meanwhile, the 6/7 APS-C successor isn't even the flagship anymore. Fuji is fighting the second tier of Sony cameras here.

And yet, the Fuji  holds little attraction if you were honest about not wanting the "hump".

However, if you have other priorities, it may be worth it, but it's hard to follow these arguments sometimes.  For many, the FF of the A7 is not going to be matched, and IQ is often more important that "AF speed", which is notoriously hard to measure.  (If it were easy to measure, we'd see it actually measured in reviews, where it rarely is.)

I personally can't wait for the X-T1 to come out so that so that the likes of their ilk are gone over to Fuji where they will live happily ever after.

Ok... well there's also the alternative explanation that they are clutching for straws at any possible competition (no matter how much it contradicts their previous whining) in the desperate hope that Sony will move forward their launch date for the NEX-7 successor, and the wait is turning them into bipolar love-hate outbursts against Sony that make no sense whatsoever. It's such a shame production schedules don't work based on what the competition are doing

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nevercat
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

miro3 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

I think the more appropriate question might be "Do Sony themselves have any idea how they are going to respond?"...

I don't think they are clueless.


They probably have a long (or maybe not so long) term strategy to switch-off A-mount and move everybody to FF on E-mount... by everybody, I mean everybody that can afford to pay $800 or more for their lenses. Sony have a plan to become very expensive...

They show up till now that there is no reason to believe APS will be dropped any time soon now. Rumors about a APS A77 successor are strong at this moment, so are the rumors about the Nex 7 APS successor. The A5000 is an APS camera, just launched. So the A-mont will be the high end, as Sony told more then once in interviews, and E-mount will be more low to mid range. FF is becomming more and more midrange too...

And about the price, Sony launched the A3000, a very cheap camera. When Sony launched the Nex range, the complaints were about the quality of the lenses, and everybody praised Fuji for comming with expensive high quality lenses, Now Sony is doing the same for the E-mount FF lenses and you start complaining....

My speculation is that this process is almost totally internal/inward-looking and they are looking only at their own restructuring and checking Amazon Pre-Orders as a way of evaluating market success (they only care about launch success... after the product is on the market it is somebody else's problem) and using this as feedback for their next product steering meetings

I think they look more at sales figures then you think. This is why they stopped the "real" DSLRs, as they did not sell well, that is why they took the effort to create and marked the E-mount range, as they sell very good in many countries in the world. That is why they created the A3000 and A7(r) to get more sales in the US. That is why they came with the A5000, for good sales in Japan and other countries.

Maybe they listen more to their actual users too. As many things are done better in the newer caeras every time (like the build in flash in the A5000, like the normal hotshoe in all Sony cameras with an hotshoe, like better video in the A7 and the RX10, like starting with excelent lenses for the FF e-mount etc. You cherrypick what options Sony did not use and forget all those things that Sony do use from the wish list of their users.

The X-T1 probably hasn't even really registered on their radar... which is a shame as Fuji seem totally the opposite being very keen to ingratiate themselve with their current users (Sony seemingly don't even realise that they have any of those) and enthusiastic to integreate the features people want into their cameras (we get what Sony thinks we should buy, whatever we might actually want...)

Whatever... if the rumours concerning the NEX-7 replacement being in a couple of weeks, the decisions concerning it have already been made so there's not much we can do now... the time for shouting was in the run-up to Christmas (well, it was more like the shills shouting down anybody who shouted, unfortunately) when the product steering groups might still have been meeting but now the dice is cast

You realy have no cue how long it takes to design a new type of camera, do you? Let's try to showw some of the steps every designer (from every brand) has to go true before "his" camera is launched:

1. Make a list of the capabilities of the camera (like sensor size, features, price point, etc.)They will make some scetches of how the camera might look like. They have to get the approval that they can go on with the camera

2. Then comes the technical design: all the electronics, mechanics and the software has to be put to gether and then tested (there is still no "real"camera at this moment, just bit in a box).When the design works there will be some prototypes build. These prototypes may look different (to try out different look and feels of the camera) or can be totaly the same. These prototypes are tested by a test team, both in controlled settings as in the real world. The team comes with small changes, like button settings, software bugs missing features etc.

3. A new set of protoptypes, or pre production cameras is made, no big changes are possible from now on. These cameras are tested again in both lab setting as in the real world, test are done to know how the camera is working under all types of conditions (like temp., moist, etc). Small changes to software can be made, not much more then that.

4. The parts of the new camera (like the electronics, the mechanics, the body etc) are made. Together with the design of the box and the manuals.

5. The production line is started to produce the new camera.

6. Cameras have to be shipt over the world

7. You buy the camera in the shop.

So part 3 of the above had to be done befor oktober ended, to give Sony the time to get everything ready for sales in april. Your cries in december had no effect on the design of the Nex 7 successor at all, when that camera is to be announced soon, these cameras are close to production (and maybe allready in production) as we speak.

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+1

We will have to see. I suspect that the $800 and 'better EVF' rumours will mean that we see a plastic NEX-6 replacement with a higher-res PDAF-equipped sensor and a 'hump' containing an A99/A7 EVF labelled as an A7000... but perhaps I will be proved wrong (I hope so)

We all have to wait and see, personaly I thonk there could be two designs for the Nex 6/7 successors, one full metal with hump, and one with more plastic without hump. These cameras may not come out at the same time, we will see...

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Keep Both the hump and the humpless and everybody is sattisfied!

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spacemn
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago

I don't get it. I thought the pressure was on everybody else when Sony launched the A7 and A7R?!

For only $300 more you can get a FF 24mpix camera of the same size.

I really do not hope that the NEX-7 will replicate the dial layout. I would hate to adjust the ISO dial while looking through the EVF. I would hate to combine the usage of two dials in order to set the shutter speed in 1/3 stop increments. It's all retro over function if you ask me.

If Sony simple put out an upgraded NEX-7 with better tracking AF, menus like the A7, utilise the power of the new processing unit and a slight overhaul of the tri-navi system (I prefer the A7 dial layout) then it will easily compete.

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GaryW
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Re: what pressure?
In reply to Donny out of Element here, 11 months ago

Donny out of Element here wrote:

forpetessake wrote:

miro3 wrote:

How do you think Sony will respond?

Respond? Do they need to respond? To what, exactly?

To fast tracking AF with 8fps.

The Nex-6 is supposed to be able to AF even in the 10fps burst mode, with the correct settings.  I'm not sure that I've seen that happen in practice.

To better high ISO performance of "old Sony 16Mp sensor".

What's the matter with high ISO performance for the old Sony 16MP sensor on Sony Nexes?  Seems pretty good to me.  If the Fuji manages to improve upon this, I doubt it will be much of a difference -- certainly not enough to jump brands.

To better lens lineup. This 3 conditions are more than enough.

Lenses have always been an issue, particularly compared to mounts that have been around for decades.  When pressed, people list very different ideas about what they want in a new lens, though.  It's going to take a while for Sony to cover the spectrum.

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nevercat
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 11 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

Of course it depends what you are shooting... landscapes and posed portraits don't need fast AF, but spontaneous street scenes and anything involving children or animals does

Do you know with what camera most of the above shots are taken?

Do you think it is with a FF fast focussing sports DSLR? NO!
Do you think it is with an APS fast focussing DSLR? NO!
Do you think it is with a slower focussing mirrorless camera? NO!
Do you think it is with a slowish focussing P&S? Close...Do you think it with a very slow focussing camera phone? BINGO!

Not every picture they take is perfect, none of those pictures come in the papers, or are seen at this site, but that camera with its crappy slow AF takes the most pictures at childres sports fields, take the pictures of the running dog, and the plaing children.

I was down at the lake today taking pictures of seagulls... big fat lazy, slow seagulls, full of the bread I had been bribing them with to come and be photographed so they were even fatter and slower... but my AF speed was still hopelessly lacking for the task and so I had to try to use MF. Improvements would be very welcome to me, at least

Strange, those slow moving birds never gave me any problem, but oh yes I use that fas focussing Nex 5... (the original)

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jpr2
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Sean: the rather poor AF on S's MILCs is pretty notorious, so...
In reply to sean lancaster, 11 months ago

sean lancaster wrote:

It is the only thing Sony can add to bring me back, so I am definitely in the 1% according to Steve's numbers. However, his numbers are completely erroneous and his wishful thinking, so there's that, too.

...this is also rather hefty a factor - because due to poor AF these cams attract rather specific crop of users: namely those who care not for speedy AF. In other words any poll carried predominantly among landscapists, nature morte shooters, architecture, etc. genres will by its very nature bring hugely skewed results

jpr2

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jpr2
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Greg: a split view in EVF, giving both full sensor's image as well as a selected crop...
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, 11 months ago

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Hilarious post. Good reponse.

All I read is ciriticisms the mirrorless AF is not fast enough. So it seems (and neither right nor wrong here) not wanting fast AF would be the extreme minority based on the number of posts about it.

I can see your point though, I quite enjoy manual focusing. My Sony A7r is brilliant at that. But the Fuji XT1 just got even more brilliant at it with picture in a picture manual focus where you can with the main view and a small magnified slice of the picture on the same screen with your choice of manual focus aid (split view, focus peaking).

This is what I do with my A7r in 2 steps anyway. I use focus peaking and then if the object is static I use magnified view to check for totally accurate focus. It would be nice to have both available like that without extra clicks and presses. I can see that being what DP Review referred to as further refinements needed in the manual focusing system of the A7. A bit unfair of them to say so as the Sony system up until this Fuji one (assuming the Fuji one works as advertised) has been the best out there.

Greg.

a split view in EVF, giving both full sensor's image as well as a selected crop is what very many of us wanted for ages - one of several crucial reasons the XT-1 is and instant hit. Announced a moment ago it has already dethroned A7 as most often pre-ordered body. And the supposedly very fast AF (we need an independent confirmation on this, and soon) is for sure among major reasons too

jpr2

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quezra
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to GaryW, 11 months ago

GaryW wrote:

You must be one of those "paid shills" that thinks that a Sony camera with a hump is better than a Fuji camera with a hump. Everyone knows Fuji does humps better. Or something. No, seriously, I'm reading this thread wondering also just what is the logic here?

In truth, i like the design of both cameras, with humps. One is clearly retro, while Sony's with clean lines is trying to push a little bit out of the nostalgic design, but not by a lot. And the benefits for centrally-positioned EVF are very clear as those of us defending Sony's A7 decision have said all along... Fuji have really knocked this one out the park with this EVF - imagine if they'd tried to squeeze a pathetic little one in the corner!

What I don't get is the fixed manual dials, takes a lot out of the point of them, particularly shutter placed high up like where PASM dial is on the A7 (tried turning it - impossible for me without taking my hand out of a shooting grip, which means I can't shoot and adjust shutter in a fluid manner).

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hyenadog
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to spacemn, 11 months ago

spacemn wrote:

I don't get it. I thought the pressure was on everybody else when Sony launched the A7 and A7R?!

For only $300 more you can get a FF 24mpix camera of the same size.

I really do not hope that the NEX-7 will replicate the dial layout. I would hate to adjust the ISO dial while looking through the EVF. I would hate to combine the usage of two dials in order to set the shutter speed in 1/3 stop increments. It's all retro over function if you ask me.

If Sony simple put out an upgraded NEX-7 with better tracking AF, menus like the A7, utilise the power of the new processing unit and a slight overhaul of the tri-navi system (I prefer the A7 dial layout) then it will easily compete.

it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest to see the "new NEX" really be the NEX5/6 replacement so a nex3 replacement with an evf and touchscreen/trinavi etc .. who in their right mind would pay the likely asking price for the A7k when for a relatively small increment they can get an A7 ... bearing in mind sony are not likely to release any new lenses for APSC and theres nothing really >50mm prime/bright OIS/AF  and for shooting static things (all the NEX AF is good for really with its poor AF) the FF is far far superior to anything the A7k will likely theoretically output

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quezra
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Good reply, but...
In reply to nevercat, 11 months ago

... not worth wasting your time replying to someone who thinks Sony is extremely dumb (picking almost the stupidest possible choices from all available), yet continues to pine for Sony products.

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jpr2
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re: all the good reasons, but... there is more to it, much more...
In reply to Clayton1985, 11 months ago

Clayton1985 wrote:

I actually think the Fuji releasing the X-T1 with the 16mp sensor helped Sony tremendously. The X-T1 looks like a nice camera and the lenses are excellent but many people that decided to go with a NEX 7 before are going to struggle to "settle" for the X-T1's sensor. I use that term loosely since I know that some people will reply to tell me how little difference there is and how great the Fuji sensor is, etc. But that doesn't really change my point that it can be hard to go backwards when you've experienced what the NEX 7 can do. So, IMO, the NEX 6/7 successor only needs to improve AF, keep a 24mp (or more) sensor with improved high ISO performance, and add some of the expected features. If Fuji had released the X-T1 with a 24mp sensor then Sony would be in for a much bigger fight IMO. Of course Fuji will convert some NEX users but I don't think it will be as many as it could have been.

That being said, the EVF, weather sealing and tilt screen are great moves by Fuji and I'll be interested to see the X-Pro 2 or the X-T2 with a new sensor.

  • I was immediately taken by XT-1's specs, design, the level of possible customization, etc;
  • but... it seems overpriced for what it offers (yes, I do know its being compared to the OMG-E1, but Oly's flagship is overpriced too IMO);
  • it is pretty huge in comparison to Nex-7 (XT-1 has actually bigger front profile than even Eos 100d, so... if one aims at a small body with a decent AF the choice is not that clear);
  • in contrast to Nex'en XT-1 can's mount smartly (with IS enabled, EXIFs and aperture control) any of the EF/EF-S lenses of Canon;
  • and indeed... the sensor's resolution is effectively lower than its nominal 16 Mpx due to the sensels' layout;

but... should the AF prove itself to be DSLR's level quick and accurate, the temptation might be too much to withstand despite all the Nex-7 advantages !!

jpr2

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Sabud
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago

It's very easy, next step is IBIS!

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: what pressure?
In reply to Donny out of Element here, 11 months ago

forpetessake wrote:

miro3 wrote:

How do you think Sony will respond?

Respond? Do they need to respond? To what, exactly?

To fast tracking AF with 8fps. To better high ISO performance of "old Sony 16Mp sensor". To better lens lineup. This 3 conditions are more than enough.

Let us see how tracking works, at 8 fps or otherwise. Until then it is a marketing statement.

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JohnSingkit
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to hyenadog, 11 months ago

hyenadog wrote:

quezra wrote:

It's hilarious how the same people who have been hating on the A7 hump and dials for the last 3 months suddenly think a humped, manual-controls-heavy camera is suddenly a huge threat to Sony. Even better when they think they have any credibility threatening to jump ship to Fuji if the streamlined 7 successor doesn't come out, when uncustomizable dials are even worse on the Fuji and the hump is just as 'unpocketable' as the A7. The best part is, Sony have already responded to Fuji. They have the DSLR-styling and superb dial operation camera in the A7, except hey it's FF! Meanwhile, the 6/7 APS-C successor isn't even the flagship anymore. Fuji is fighting the second tier of Sony cameras here.

I personally can't wait for the X-T1 to come out so that so that the likes of their ilk are gone over to Fuji where they will live happily ever after.

Ok... well there's also the alternative explanation that they are clutching for straws at any possible competition (no matter how much it contradicts their previous whining) in the desperate hope that Sony will move forward their launch date for the NEX-7 successor, and the wait is turning them into bipolar love-hate outbursts against Sony that make no sense whatsoever. It's such a shame production schedules don't work based on what the competition are doing

who cares really, the more competition the better, that way Sony will have no choice other than to up its game or withdraw.

I only really bought the NEX because of its compact footprint with the 16-50 (as I already have dslr), so I prefer the "NEX" small footprint, but recognise it has been a commercial disaster for sony loss wise and that to cater to the US etc market they may need it in "hump format" ... no biggie i'm getting a bit sick of the lack of AF/OIS bright tele lenses anyway

I'll see whether Nikon come out with something FF more in the svelte format of the A7

NEX form factor Commercial disaster? I guess, to you the Asian market does not exist.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 11 months ago

martindesu wrote:

If the successor to the NEX-7 is to be announced within 1 month, there's no time to chance their plan, or "respond".

Well, rumor sites had the specs like 2 months ago.

And if Sony has informants in Fuji, they might have had the specs much earlier.

So, they have known the specs for a while now, and have no excuse really.

They'll simply present what they have, or delay.

I think they'll just present what they have. The X-T1 is the first Fuji camera I've looked at and thought... hmmm... maybe! I never got on with their other offerings, but who knows.

So they beat parallax issue with hump? You are in the same brigade yet you seem to be focusing on the camera (which is how it should be... always).

But speaking of XT1, sounds like a fine camera albeit in a price class that has entered FF territory and some fine cameras out there.

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stevo23
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Re: Sean: the rather poor AF on S's MILCs is pretty notorious, so...
In reply to jpr2, 11 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

sean lancaster wrote:

It is the only thing Sony can add to bring me back, so I am definitely in the 1% according to Steve's numbers. However, his numbers are completely erroneous and his wishful thinking, so there's that, too.

...this is also rather hefty a factor - because due to poor AF these cams attract rather specific crop of users: namely those who care not for speedy AF. In other words any poll carried predominantly among landscapists, nature morte shooters, architecture, etc. genres will by its very nature bring hugely skewed results

Ridiculous thinking.

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