a lot of pressure on Sony now ...

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Mike Fewster
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Re: There's a lot of pressure on everyone....
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

It's called competition and we are all the beneficiaries. It isn't too difficult to look across the Fuji, mft and Sony range and find things in each that might best suit your particular needs.

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EinsteinsGhost
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In reply to parallaxproblem, 10 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

I think the more appropriate question might be "Do Sony themselves have any idea how they are going to respond?"...

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 10 months ago

Hilarious post. Good reponse.

All I read is ciriticisms the mirrorless AF is not fast enough. So it seems (and neither right nor wrong here) not wanting fast AF would be the extreme minority based on the number of posts about it.

I can see your point though, I quite enjoy manual focusing. My Sony A7r is brilliant at that. But the Fuji XT1 just got even more brilliant at it with picture in a picture manual focus where you can with the main view and a small magnified slice of the picture on the same screen with your choice of manual focus aid (split view, focus peaking).

This is what I do with my A7r in 2 steps anyway. I use focus peaking and then if the object is static I use magnified view to check for totally accurate focus. It would be nice to have both available like that without extra clicks and presses. I can see that being what DP Review referred to as further refinements needed in the manual focusing system of the A7. A bit unfair of them to say so as the Sony system up until this Fuji one (assuming the Fuji one works as advertised) has been the best out there.

Greg.

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to stevo23, 10 months ago

Not by as much margin as you think. Sure full frame is full frame and the 24mp sensor is gorgeous.

But the EVF, the tracking AF of the XT1 (this could be the breakthrough in AF that stops DSLR uses switching - finally an AF unit that is good for moving objects), the manual focus aids, the frames per second (8 with tracking AF), the fast read/write speeds (260mb per sec), ISO dial on top with multiple manual swtiches, 6 customisable buttons, weather sealed.

OOC jpegs from Fuji are the best there are. The 56mm F1.2, 23mm F1.4, 35mm F1.4 lenses add to the allure. They are the Fuji holy trinity of prime lenses and are superb. They all are metal. They all have aperture rings. The zooms have image stabilisation.

The 10-24mm F4 zoom, the 14mm F2.8 with zero distortion, the about to be released 18-135mm F3.5 weather sealed zoom and further weather sealed zooms 16-55 F2.8, 50-150 F2.8. So the lens selection is pretty seductive. The lenses are right up there in quality with just about anything and AF is now pretty fast so it does leave much to be desired. There is also a rumour Adobe LR is about to release more support for the Xtrans system (its already very good and many other RAW converters out there are good as well - Photo Ninja, Aperture, Capture 1, Lightroom).

Having said that I love my A7r and A7r would still be the camera I reach for and also for video if were going to do that.

But I still plan to get a Fuji XT1 for my Fuji lenses.

I want 2 systems - the Sony emount and the Fuji X. That has been my conclusion after 2 years of evaluating the current camera market. I like them the best.

If an A8r came out with 54 mp full frame and in camera IBIS - wow. That would be light years ahead of anything.

Greg.

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miro3
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to Clayton1985, 10 months ago

Clayton1985 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

I actually think the Fuji releasing the X-T1 with the 16mp sensor helped Sony tremendously. The X-T1 looks like a nice camera and the lenses are excellent but many people that decided to go with a NEX 7 before are going to struggle to "settle" for the X-T1's sensor. I use that term loosely since I know that some people will reply to tell me how little difference there is and how great the Fuji sensor is, etc. But that doesn't really change my point that it can be hard to go backwards when you've experienced what the NEX 7 can do. So, IMO, the NEX 6/7 successor only needs to improve AF, keep a 24mp (or more) sensor with improved high ISO performance, and add some of the expected features. If Fuji had released the X-T1 with a 24mp sensor then Sony would be in for a much bigger fight IMO. Of course Fuji will convert some NEX users but I don't think it will be as many as it could have been.

That being said, the EVF, weather sealing and tilt screen are great moves by Fuji and I'll be interested to see the X-Pro 2 or the X-T2 with a new sensor.

Good points

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Mel Snyder
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to stevo23, 10 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

In what way?

The Nex-7 with 24Mp still trumps in IQ?

I guess it needs a hump then after all?

No hump!

Just:

- fast autofocus

- fast update of the EVF and LCD (the Fuji X-T1 has a display lag for the EVF and LCD of only 0.005 seconds vs. X-E2: 0.05s, and Olympus OM-D E-M1: 0.029s (not sure what these are for the Sony cameras)

Big deal. This starts to become wearisome. Fast autofocus is not important for 99% out there. A faster EVF would be nice, but I just don't care anymore. I used to use a SpeedGraphic and a Rollieflex. Does autofocus not seem like a light speed leap anyhow? I think most people would take better pictures without autofocus.

OMG. I agree completely. My manual lenses don't autofocus very well on my NEX-6  and yet I somehow get photos.

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pew pew
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

The new Fuji is more a competition for the Olympus omd 1 imo,  similar style similar pricing.

They sony 7 is FF the sony 7r is 36 mp vs 16mp.. and the Sony nex line is way cheaper.

Fuji is in a niche market for users who don´t mind paying premium price for a quality product, but they will never be the cameras that everyone carries around, simply because their products are expensive and do not offer more then then the competition.

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shadowhumper
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

Geez Louise, how will Sony step up the game against a smaller sensor, smaller mp count, no weather sealed lenses for the system, big ass lenses, horrible looks (to me at least) and, being Fuji, bug ridden first release to be improved with "outstanding customer support" with infinite bug fixes.

Yeah, Sony must be shaking.

ps. must i remind you about the huge ass lenses for an apsc system?

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Donny out of Element here
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Re: a sad truth is...
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

that major decisions have been already made for NEX-6/7 successor, so it's too late now to change anything if new camera will be presented in a few weeks. Now we can only hope that Sony's vision was correct and they did make a fast tracking AF at least to be on par with Fuji. Irony is that once slowest from the bunch Fuji became one of the fastest, while Sony once fast became at best mediocre. Even more disappointment is going to happen (at least for me) if Sony will chose to make successor in A3000 style. That will be the end of it. And last, but not least, where is a lens roadmap for APS-C? All Sony had to do is to copy Fuji's roadmap - if they can't create their own one, but it seems they can't even do that.

I'm not holding my breath for NEX-6/7 successor, since I know that there won't be any major improvement, yet again Sony will give us same NEX-5/6/7 with different menu and different name with no real changes like fast tracking AF or better high ISO performance or new lenses.

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1prime
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

Respond???  I'm hoping they try to really impress potential buyers, and rename the NEX-7 replacement the A7,000,000 !   And I'm happy I have a simple NEX-7, not the rumored A7000.  All those zeros are a real turn off for this guy.

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stevo23
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 10 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

In what way?

The Nex-7 with 24Mp still trumps in IQ?

I guess it needs a hump then after all?

No hump!

Just:

- fast autofocus

- fast update of the EVF and LCD (the Fuji X-T1 has a display lag for the EVF and LCD of only 0.005 seconds vs. X-E2: 0.05s, and Olympus OM-D E-M1: 0.029s (not sure what these are for the Sony cameras)

Big deal. This starts to become wearisome. Fast autofocus is not important for 99% out there.

Woo hoo! I'm the one in a hundred who fast AF is important for!!!!

Hold on... or are you the one in a hundred who it isn't important for?

Ha ha!

I think I'm in the majority. My point being that during the "golden age of photography", we spent our years with split screen focusing and got great results. When autofocus came along, it really wasn't anything to scream about. Eventually, it got fast and silent.

But it's still only marginally reliable at achieving critical sharpness no matter how fast. You've got to fire off several shots to be sure you get one sharp one. This is good for sports and action work, but after that, we don't need it at all. Even so, somehow, we've decided to rely on it and we're being enticed to chuck our old systems over a millisecond difference in speed.

This constant posturing over a millisecond here or a micro-detent there is really very tiresome. It strikes me that the ability to make any significant changes in image quality is now almost zero. All we're seeing are the proverbial gilding of the pig's ear. This is not a sustainable model. Contraction is around the corner.

Wait, did I write that? I must be getting a cold or something. The Fuji is nice, but I'm not sure it's quite a rival to the A7 in the image making department. It's more of a rival to the Df.

Of course it depends what you are shooting... landscapes and posed portraits don't need fast AF, but spontaneous street scenes and anything involving children or animals does

Yes, you would want autofocus then, but do you need it any faster than it is now? What makes me weary is the now extra .005 millisecond of performance that's positioned to impress.

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stevo23
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to sean lancaster, 10 months ago

sean lancaster wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

In what way?

The Nex-7 with 24Mp still trumps in IQ?

I guess it needs a hump then after all?

No hump!

Just:

- fast autofocus

- fast update of the EVF and LCD (the Fuji X-T1 has a display lag for the EVF and LCD of only 0.005 seconds vs. X-E2: 0.05s, and Olympus OM-D E-M1: 0.029s (not sure what these are for the Sony cameras)

Big deal. This starts to become wearisome. Fast autofocus is not important for 99% out there.

Woo hoo! I'm the one in a hundred who fast AF is important for!!!!

Hold on... or are you the one in a hundred who it isn't important for?

It is the only thing Sony can add to bring me back, so I am definitely in the 1% according to Steve's numbers. However, his numbers are completely erroneous and his wishful thinking, so there's that, too.

Erroneous implies they were at one point put forth as fact which in case they were not. It was anecdotal to make a point. I find this constant micro improvement marketing to be wearisome toil for both consumer and manufacturer.

I just picked up my A7 and focused on something and it's not only completely silent, it's plenty fast. There is no way it's not up to the task of street, bird, family dog or family activity shots. Silly to think more is actually needed.

What does impress me about the Fuji is that it's got an X-Trans sensor and takes some of the best lenses out there. But what bums me is that it lacks the hybrid view finder like the X-Pro 1.

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stevo23
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, 10 months ago

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Hilarious post. Good reponse.

All I read is ciriticisms the mirrorless AF is not fast enough. So it seems (and neither right nor wrong here) not wanting fast AF would be the extreme minority based on the number of posts about it.

I can see your point though, I quite enjoy manual focusing. My Sony A7r is brilliant at that. But the Fuji XT1 just got even more brilliant at it with picture in a picture manual focus where you can with the main view and a small magnified slice of the picture on the same screen with your choice of manual focus aid (split view, focus peaking).

This is what I do with my A7r in 2 steps anyway. I use focus peaking and then if the object is static I use magnified view to check for totally accurate focus. It would be nice to have both available like that without extra clicks and presses. I can see that being what DP Review referred to as further refinements needed in the manual focusing system of the A7. A bit unfair of them to say so as the Sony system up until this Fuji one (assuming the Fuji one works as advertised) has been the best out there.

At what? I can't imagine anyone thinking the X-T1 is going to make better images. It's nice - has nice refinements to be sure.

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stevo23
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

miro3 wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

Not really. They're already outperforming the X-T1 with the A7.

but not in the response time when pressing the shutter, and not in the update speed for the EVF and LCD

That's not the priority I would place things personally. With a D7100, D610 and A7 all sporting 24Mp, I've been put off the Fuji. And since backcountry use is one of my main interests, the Fuji falls short in the performance/weight department.

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stevo23
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, 10 months ago

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

If an A8r came out with 54 mp full frame and in camera IBIS - wow. That would be light years ahead of anything.

Once the Sony/Olympus transaction is complete, Sony will have access to all the IP that once belonged exclusively to Olympus. So to me, that sounds like a logical thing.

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forpetessake
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what pressure?
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7)

I'm not sure what you think Sony should match or outperform. If we take sensors, for example, then Fuji is still using the old Sony 16MP sensor, and even A5000 is already using a newer better 20MP sensor. Obviously A7000 wouldn't be behind A5000.

Maybe, you are talking about body, ergonomics, etc. Then most people hope A7000 will retain the small rangefinder form factor, so it will definitely not match Fuji.

and the successor of the A7r.

This is a completely different category, which no APS-C camera can match, so it makes no sense bringing it into discussion.

How do you think Sony will respond?

Respond? Do they need to respond? To what, exactly?

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stevo23
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 10 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

Sony doesn't have to respond. They already make better images with more resolution.

The X-T1 is really aimed at the Df, so it's not really Sony's fight in the first place.

The problem is that if the NEX-7 replacement isn't what is being hoped for then a lot of current NEX-7 owners probably are going to jump ship to the X-T1 - some are already talking about it

People have been waiting a long time for the NEX-7 to be updated (there have been two NEX-5 upgrades in the interim), but at the same time may current NEX-7 owners like the format, build quality and layout of the camera and want to see this maintained in any new model

A DSLR shaped body, or a body made out of plastic will, rightly or wrongly, not be well received by many current NEX owners

For the moment the NEX-5T is still being sold but there is also an open question if there will be a place for a replacement model for that in the new Ax000 system between the $600 A5000 and the $900 (including kit lens) A7000 (guessing name)

Yes, I see that, good point.

But I think the NEX-7 is fine enough as is. Granted, the native lens collection is spotty and at times dull, but the ability to adapt would satisfy me quite well. If you ask me, I would rather Sony spend time improving the native NEX lenses first.

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stevo23
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to pew pew, 10 months ago

pew pew wrote:

The new Fuji is more a competition for the Olympus omd 1 imo, similar style similar pricing.

Actually, I think they're also going after Nikon Df marketshare too.

They sony 7 is FF the sony 7r is 36 mp vs 16mp.. and the Sony nex line is way cheaper.

Fuji is in a niche market for users who don´t mind paying premium price for a quality product, but they will never be the cameras that everyone carries around, simply because their products are expensive and do not offer more then then the competition.

Anyone know their actual market share? I don't think it's very big.

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stevo23
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Re: what pressure?
In reply to forpetessake, 10 months ago

forpetessake wrote:

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7)

I'm not sure what you think Sony should match or outperform. If we take sensors, for example, then Fuji is still using the old Sony 16MP sensor, and even A5000 is already using a newer better 20MP sensor. Obviously A7000 wouldn't be behind A5000.

Maybe, you are talking about body, ergonomics, etc. Then most people hope A7000 will retain the small rangefinder form factor, so it will definitely not match Fuji.

and the successor of the A7r.

This is a completely different category, which no APS-C camera can match, so it makes no sense bringing it into discussion.

How do you think Sony will respond?

Respond? Do they need to respond? To what, exactly?

Nikon Df.

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socode
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Re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ...
In reply to miro3, 10 months ago

miro3 wrote:

to match and outperform the Fuji X-T1 with the A7000 ( successor of the NEX-7) and the successor of the A7r.

How do you think Sony will respond?

If they don't respond through the medium of modern dance, they might offer a selection of competing photographic products to the market.

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