The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Ed B
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Re: For me the DSLR is dead, but that's not the case for everyone.
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Compact cameras have electronic shutters.

Actually this isn't the case My LX7 has an electronic shutter, but only if you cripple it to 3.5 megapixels and shoot in burst mode for 40 or 60 frames per second. Otherwise it has a mechanic shutter which shoots at up to 11frames per second... Some compacts may be electronic only but not the one I use.

I didn't know that. Thank you.

This plus some mirrorless cams have E shutter options. As scan speeds get faster, or as CCD is improved and used, there will eventually be mirrorless that have only E shutters. I personally would love for things to advance this far, one less moving part and one thing less to wear out. Shutters life is listed for a reason, that is usually the first thing to go.

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Which mirrorless cameras have an electronic shutter?

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Josh152
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Ed B, 8 months ago

Ed B wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Which mirrorless cameras do you own?

Heads up: neither the X100 nor the X10 is a mirrorless camera!!! They both fall into the compact camera category.

Many people on these forums have no idea what a mirrorless camera is and think their compact (point & shoot) cameras fall into the mirrorless category.

( by the way, your X100 is a good camera but it's a compact with an APS sensor.)

I do agree with what you're saying about people who think DSLRs are "going away".

If they don't have a mirror by definition they are mirrorless. Thanks for playing though.

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Mike CH
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The high priest of the death of the mirror
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

Completely agree and quite frankly im tired of all these religious zealots acting as the harbinger of death for the mirror. GET A LIFE !!!
... should follow his own advice.

Regards, Mike
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abelits
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Graham Hill, 8 months ago

I made a detailed explanation, why I think, DSLRs are a bad combination of technologies for future cameras here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3594240/52761343

Basically, DSLR is an application of an old engineering solution made for film, to compensate for deficiencies of digital sensors. As sensors improve, legitimate reasons for using this solution, disappear.

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yonsarh
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 8 months ago

don't forget Oly omd em10 and nikon df .

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Mike CH
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Mirrorless and MILC?
In reply to Leonard Migliore, 8 months ago

Leonard Migliore wrote:

Funny, that question came up earlier today:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53003272

It's an elliptical definition.

Perhaps there is mirrorless and MILC?

It seems to me that mirrorless is often used in situations where MILC would be more descriptive. In the sense that mirrorless factually applies to many more types of cameras than is actually meant in context.

Both EVIL (which started as a joke around here, AFAIR) and MILC are 'funny' acronyms. I don't see them as getting much traction over the term mirrorless.

Regards, Mike
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Graham Hill
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Bill Robb, 8 months ago

Bill Robb wrote:

Dodi73 wrote:

Wow guys

I reply to myself to be sure not to offense anyone, however please, mine was really a simple question, no need to put such "anger" in your replies. A simple "I don't think so because..." would have been enough.

Would a simple "there are at least a thousand threads on the subject, all you have to do is read every third subject line for the past 6 months to find them" have been enough?

Absolutely fantastic Bill.  It's only 1 month into 2014 but this here is the POST OF THE YEAR!!

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ZorSy
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 8 months ago

Dodi73 wrote:

. Check for yourself the "Most popular cameras" slide bar just aside this frame. They smoke everything else out there.

It's been like that fora while: 'most popular' reads 'the newest' (most interest, clicks etc). Popularity reflects in number of units sold (how widespread something is) - which is really hard to  judge on models available for pre-order.

They are all nice cameras without doubts.....

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ShawnHoke
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to ZorSy, 8 months ago

More choices are good. DSLRs are fantastic. Mirrorless cameras are lighter, smaller and also fantastic. Some people shoot film. Some shoot with their phones. There's room for all. And none of them are going anywhere soon.

It's exhausting that mirrorless crusaders have to keep banging on the "end is nigh for DSLRs" drum.

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Lumixdude
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to ShawnHoke, 8 months ago

It really is pointless... If you don't want one, don't buy one, and let the market die as it did in 2004 where all but Nikon realised that 35mm film cameras were dead when they released that strange Nikon F5 with EXIF data printouts...

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Dennis
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Re: What is definition of a mirrorless camera ?
In reply to BertIverson, 8 months ago

BertIverson wrote:

What is the definition of a mirrorless camera? I always assumed mirroless had no mirror and used CDAF. Help me here,

Points & shoots have been mirrorless for a long time, but there have never really been point & shoots that weren't mirrorless (I vaguely recall Olympus having a couple fixed lens SLRs but those were anomolies). Oh, there was also a point & shoot from Konica Minolta that had a mirror, but it was on the front of the camera and was intended for selfies

The question isn't so much what the word technically means, but what use it serves - that is, what it distinguishes. It typically refers to reduced registration distance, interchangeable lens, live view cameras. So NEX (sorry Alpha ILC-E !), Fuji 'X', Nikon 1, EOS-M, micro 4/3. But not Sony Alpha DSLTs (which aren't even technically mirrorless, but don't use a mirror for viewing), usually not Leica (rangefinders are in a class by themselves AFAIC). CDAF is an attribute of most mirrorless and certainly early mirrorless, but not a requirement (more and more mirrorless cameras will use PDAF or a hybrid solution).

The sticky part will come when Nikon & Canon introduce mirrorless cameras for their SLR systems. Imagine a mirrorless Rebel. Kind of like a Sony DSLT, but without the fixed mirror for PDAF because it will have PDAF-on-sensor. Personally, I think it's useful to distinguish those from DSLRs, yet also distinguish them from the reduced registration distance systems listed above. So another term used for mirrorless is CSC (compact system camera). That might stick.

So, to me, mirrorless is usually used to refer to "compact system cameras" and not any camera that lacks a mirror.

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justmeMN
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DSLR sales
In reply to Dodi73, 8 months ago

Canon estimates that they are going to sell 7.6 million DSLRs in 2014.

I don't know their 2014 forecast, but in August, Nikon forecast sales of 6.55 million DSLRs in 2013.

In spite of years of rants from mirrorless fanboys, the DSLR refuses to die.

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TrapperJohn
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The DPR click chart does show a large shift in enthusiast interest.
In reply to Dodi73, 8 months ago

And, an unprecedented shift as well, as compared to... well, since high grade digital photography came to be, back around the year 2000.

I expect much of that is - now that the staples of more MP/more ISO are hitting pratical limits, where more doesn't necessarily mean better photos, mirrorless is where all of the interesting new developments are happening. Most of those developments are not applicable to a traditional DSLR, with the limitations of legacy film lens mount, legacy registration distance, and OVF.

But, will the rising interest in mirrorless translate into sales?

In the new markets where photo gear hasn't been active for decades, such as the fast growing Asian nations, mirrorless is selling very well.

In the established markets of the US and EU, it isn't selling that well. I suspect that is due to the large number of existing C/N DSLR owners, with large investments in glass. There's no compelling reason to spend a not inconsquential amount to walk away from that right now - a good mirrorless setup costs as much, likely a bit more than a good DSLR setup.

So I see the DPR click chart as a warning to C/N: the enthusiasts you rely on for sales are very interested in these new platforms. Right now, the existing base of lenses is keeping sales in check, but that won't last forever. Already the µ43 platform has an extensive line of native, size optimized lenses to go with an extensive line of bodies, from micro to mini-DSLR. Fuji just pushed into the more mainstream. Sony made a bold, if not incomplete, statement with the A7 line.

The only hard and fast conclusion is: the next few years will be very interesting.

Can Fuji go head to head with C/N in the lens line? Can they do it without compromising lens IQ, or going broke by growing too fast? (remember the Osbourne computer company...)

Are C/N so intent on continuing what worked during the DSLR boom years of 2000-2009, that they can't change their leadership to match the change in platforms?

Will µ43's bet on smaller sensor/smaller lens pay off? Sensor tech is eroding the larger sensor advantage, while the lens size advantage remains a constant. Hint: even the DOF advantage of the larger sensor may be lost, with some interesting new tech developments.

Will Sony's A7 platform wither because Sony can't make really good FF glass to go with it? Imagine Canon without L glass to see the problem here...

What will Pentax do? Don't count them out.

Stay tuned, Platform Fight Night is on.

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Colin Franks
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Re: The DPR click chart does show a large shift in enthusiast interest.
In reply to TrapperJohn, 8 months ago

TrapperJohn wrote:

Sensor tech is eroding the larger sensor advantage......

What if that sensor tech gets applied to a larger sensor?

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Mike CH
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They'll never see it coming!
In reply to Colin Franks, 8 months ago

Colin Franks wrote:

TrapperJohn wrote:

Sensor tech is eroding the larger sensor advantage......

What if that sensor tech gets applied to a larger sensor?

Psst, not that loud!!!

We are keeping that option a secret for now... they'll never see it coming!

Regards, Mike
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Ed B
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Josh152, 8 months ago

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Which mirrorless cameras do you own?

Heads up: neither the X100 nor the X10 is a mirrorless camera!!! They both fall into the compact camera category.

Many people on these forums have no idea what a mirrorless camera is and think their compact (point & shoot) cameras fall into the mirrorless category.

( by the way, your X100 is a good camera but it's a compact with an APS sensor.)

I do agree with what you're saying about people who think DSLRs are "going away".

If they don't have a mirror by definition they are mirrorless. Thanks for playing though.

That's the problem with the term "mirrorless" being used to describe a particular type of camera design and one of the problems with threads that discuss the attributes of a mirrorless camera.

Many people, like yourself, confuse the applied term/category, "mirrorless", with any camera that lacks a mirror. It's a common problem, on these forums, and people who simply don't understand camera categories are sometimes too stubborn to learn.

It's almost impossible to have a thread that's not full of erroneous information when people are talking about two different types of cameras.

I feel sorry for anyone who comes to these forums trying to learn something because the knowledge they gain is flawed; they then take that flawed information and spread it to many other people who are trying to learn something.

Many of them will argue, act like they're in a high school debate, apply false logic, and say almost anything to convince other people of their expertise.

Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless and if that's the definition you want to apply to the "mirrorless" category of cameras that sounds fine to me. Good luck to you.

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Josh152
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Ed B, 8 months ago

Ed B wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Which mirrorless cameras do you own?

Heads up: neither the X100 nor the X10 is a mirrorless camera!!! They both fall into the compact camera category.

Many people on these forums have no idea what a mirrorless camera is and think their compact (point & shoot) cameras fall into the mirrorless category.

( by the way, your X100 is a good camera but it's a compact with an APS sensor.)

I do agree with what you're saying about people who think DSLRs are "going away".

If they don't have a mirror by definition they are mirrorless. Thanks for playing though.

That's the problem with the term "mirrorless" being used to describe a particular type of camera design and one of the problems with threads that discuss the attributes of a mirrorless camera.

Many people, like yourself, confuse the applied term/category, "mirrorless", with any camera that lacks a mirror. It's a common problem, on these forums, and people who simply don't understand camera categories are sometimes too stubborn to learn.

It's almost impossible to have a thread that's not full of erroneous information when people are talking about two different types of cameras.

I feel sorry for anyone who comes to these forums trying to learn something because the knowledge they gain is flawed; they then take that flawed information and spread it to many other people who are trying to learn something.

Many of them will argue, act like they're in a high school debate, apply false logic, and say almost anything to convince other people of their expertise.

Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless and if that's the definition you want to apply to the "mirrorless" category of cameras that sounds fine to me. Good luck to you.

It's not the definition I am applying IT IS the definition. You admit as much when you say  "Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless."  You are the one who is changing the meaning of words not me.  If you want to make a distinction between a camera like an X100 and say an OMD all you have to do is call the OMD a mirrorless ILC or even MILC as they have been called on this very site before.  Simple, clear, and doesn't require changing the meaning of words. Again thanks for playing.

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Ed B
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Josh152, 8 months ago

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Which mirrorless cameras do you own?

Heads up: neither the X100 nor the X10 is a mirrorless camera!!! They both fall into the compact camera category.

Many people on these forums have no idea what a mirrorless camera is and think their compact (point & shoot) cameras fall into the mirrorless category.

( by the way, your X100 is a good camera but it's a compact with an APS sensor.)

I do agree with what you're saying about people who think DSLRs are "going away".

If they don't have a mirror by definition they are mirrorless. Thanks for playing though.

That's the problem with the term "mirrorless" being used to describe a particular type of camera design and one of the problems with threads that discuss the attributes of a mirrorless camera.

Many people, like yourself, confuse the applied term/category, "mirrorless", with any camera that lacks a mirror. It's a common problem, on these forums, and people who simply don't understand camera categories are sometimes too stubborn to learn.

It's almost impossible to have a thread that's not full of erroneous information when people are talking about two different types of cameras.

I feel sorry for anyone who comes to these forums trying to learn something because the knowledge they gain is flawed; they then take that flawed information and spread it to many other people who are trying to learn something.

Many of them will argue, act like they're in a high school debate, apply false logic, and say almost anything to convince other people of their expertise.

Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless and if that's the definition you want to apply to the "mirrorless" category of cameras that sounds fine to me. Good luck to you.

It's not the definition I am applying IT IS the definition. You admit as much when you say "Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless." You are the one who is changing the meaning of words not me. If you want to make a distinction between a camera like an X100 and say an OMD all you have to do is call the OMD a mirrorless ILC or even MILC as they have been called on this very site before. Simple, clear, and doesn't require changing the meaning of words. Again thanks for playing.

As I've already said, any definition, terminology or reasoning you want to apply is OK with me.

Your mindset is typical of many posters, to these forums, so you're in good company because most people who know what they're talking about left DPReview long ago.

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Josh152
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Ed B, 8 months ago

Ed B wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Which mirrorless cameras do you own?

Heads up: neither the X100 nor the X10 is a mirrorless camera!!! They both fall into the compact camera category.

Many people on these forums have no idea what a mirrorless camera is and think their compact (point & shoot) cameras fall into the mirrorless category.

( by the way, your X100 is a good camera but it's a compact with an APS sensor.)

I do agree with what you're saying about people who think DSLRs are "going away".

If they don't have a mirror by definition they are mirrorless. Thanks for playing though.

That's the problem with the term "mirrorless" being used to describe a particular type of camera design and one of the problems with threads that discuss the attributes of a mirrorless camera.

Many people, like yourself, confuse the applied term/category, "mirrorless", with any camera that lacks a mirror. It's a common problem, on these forums, and people who simply don't understand camera categories are sometimes too stubborn to learn.

It's almost impossible to have a thread that's not full of erroneous information when people are talking about two different types of cameras.

I feel sorry for anyone who comes to these forums trying to learn something because the knowledge they gain is flawed; they then take that flawed information and spread it to many other people who are trying to learn something.

Many of them will argue, act like they're in a high school debate, apply false logic, and say almost anything to convince other people of their expertise.

Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless and if that's the definition you want to apply to the "mirrorless" category of cameras that sounds fine to me. Good luck to you.

It's not the definition I am applying IT IS the definition. You admit as much when you say "Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless." You are the one who is changing the meaning of words not me. If you want to make a distinction between a camera like an X100 and say an OMD all you have to do is call the OMD a mirrorless ILC or even MILC as they have been called on this very site before. Simple, clear, and doesn't require changing the meaning of words. Again thanks for playing.

As I've already said, any definition, terminology or reasoning you want to apply is OK with me.

Your mindset is typical of many posters, to these forums, so you're in good company because most people who know what they're talking about left DPReview long ago.I

I know what I am talking about.   You are trying to say your OPINION of what cretin types of cameras should be included under what terminology is the right one and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what they are talking about.  Even when they disagree on the basis of what words actually mean.  People like you who can't stand to be disagreed with and see them selves as the ultimate authority on a subject are what's ruining these forums.

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Ed B
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Josh152, 8 months ago

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Which mirrorless cameras do you own?

Heads up: neither the X100 nor the X10 is a mirrorless camera!!! They both fall into the compact camera category.

Many people on these forums have no idea what a mirrorless camera is and think their compact (point & shoot) cameras fall into the mirrorless category.

( by the way, your X100 is a good camera but it's a compact with an APS sensor.)

I do agree with what you're saying about people who think DSLRs are "going away".

If they don't have a mirror by definition they are mirrorless. Thanks for playing though.

That's the problem with the term "mirrorless" being used to describe a particular type of camera design and one of the problems with threads that discuss the attributes of a mirrorless camera.

Many people, like yourself, confuse the applied term/category, "mirrorless", with any camera that lacks a mirror. It's a common problem, on these forums, and people who simply don't understand camera categories are sometimes too stubborn to learn.

It's almost impossible to have a thread that's not full of erroneous information when people are talking about two different types of cameras.

I feel sorry for anyone who comes to these forums trying to learn something because the knowledge they gain is flawed; they then take that flawed information and spread it to many other people who are trying to learn something.

Many of them will argue, act like they're in a high school debate, apply false logic, and say almost anything to convince other people of their expertise.

Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless and if that's the definition you want to apply to the "mirrorless" category of cameras that sounds fine to me. Good luck to you.

It's not the definition I am applying IT IS the definition. You admit as much when you say "Yes, any camera that doesn't utilize a mirror is technically mirrorless." You are the one who is changing the meaning of words not me. If you want to make a distinction between a camera like an X100 and say an OMD all you have to do is call the OMD a mirrorless ILC or even MILC as they have been called on this very site before. Simple, clear, and doesn't require changing the meaning of words. Again thanks for playing.

As I've already said, any definition, terminology or reasoning you want to apply is OK with me.

Your mindset is typical of many posters, to these forums, so you're in good company because most people who know what they're talking about left DPReview long ago.I

I know what I am talking about. You are trying to say your OPINION of what cretin types of cameras should be included under what terminology is the right one and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what they are talking about. Even when they disagree on the basis of what words actually mean. People like you who can't stand to be disagreed with and see them selves as the ultimate authority on a subject are what's ruining these forums.

Josh, to save yourself from making further opinionated comments you might want to look at this simple example: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Fujifilm&ci=16158&N=4288586281+4291439075

This is a list of the Fuji mirrorless cameras and,

if you go to the list of Fuji point & shoot cameras you'll see that the X100s is the first camera listed: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Fujifilm&ci=8612&N=4288586279+4291439075

What I've said in this thread isn't my opinion, it's the industry standard.

Just the same, I apologize for trying to explain anything. I know I've wasted your time.

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