The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1

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Dodi73
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The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
7 months ago

Hello everyone

I posted it here because it's a cross-brand thought and was wondering who's of my same idea and why if not. Recently, the two aforementioned cameras were released and they both look terribly good to a potential buyer. Check for yourself the "Most popular cameras" slide bar just aside this frame. They smoke everything else out there.

They are both lighter, cheaper and smarter than classic DSLRs while retaining 90/95% of DSLRs IQ; they have superb lenses and in case of Sony - not enough of Zeiss partnership - accept almost any (meaningful) lens on the planet via a dedicated adapter. Plus, they both have excellent build quality.

Sure, Sony still applies a premium price, but that's it and probably it's the only downside I can think of at the moment.

Is it the beginning of the fall for DSLRs ? I'm wondering if these (and those coming soon) models will be able to erode the DSLRs customer base simply by making smart technology and effective performances available and not only the premium price paid for the brand.

I've always been on the Nikon side (see my sig) but I'm wondering if I should start saving money to get one of them. I think they both are a full palm above everything else out there - recently. The only camera I'd consider otherwise (for other reasons) is the RX10 by Sony which is very versatile as well and has a full 24-200 f/2.8 stabilized lens on a relatively large sensor which otherwise would cost too much for larger cameras.

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frank-in-toronto
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

why does every mirrorless improvement have to portend the "fall of dslrs"? at this point, mirrorless are no where near dslr in many performance factors.  these may or may not matter to you and most dslr owners have a mirrorless too. why not? horses for courses. i don't believe even one dslr owner has said they wished mirrorless did not exist.

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Graham Hill
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to frank-in-toronto, 7 months ago

frank-in-toronto wrote:

why does every mirrorless improvement have to portend the "fall of dslrs"? at this point, mirrorless are no where near dslr in many performance factors. these may or may not matter to you and most dslr owners have a mirrorless too. why not? horses for courses. i don't believe even one dslr owner has said they wished mirrorless did not exist.

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

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Ed B
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Graham Hill, 7 months ago

Graham Hill wrote:

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Which mirrorless cameras do you own?

Heads up: neither the X100 nor the X10 is a mirrorless camera!!! They both fall into the compact camera category.

Many people on these forums have no idea what a mirrorless camera is and think their compact (point & shoot) cameras fall into the mirrorless category.

( by the way, your X100 is a good camera but it's a compact with an APS sensor.)

I do agree with what you're saying about people who think DSLRs are "going away".

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Bill Robb
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

Dodi73 wrote:

Is it the beginning of the fall for DSLRs ?

Please make it stop.

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Dodi73
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

Wow guys

I reply to myself to be sure not to offense anyone, however please, mine was really a simple question, no need to put such "anger" in your replies. A simple "I don't think so because..." would have been enough.

On a side note, I do know the RX10 isn't a mirrorless camera, I simply mentioned as a third sample of a camera I found smart lately.

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BertIverson
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What is definition of a mirrorless camera ?
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

Dodi73 wrote:

... On a side note, I do know the RX10 isn't a mirrorless camera ...

What is the definition of a mirrorless camera? I always assumed mirroless had no mirror and used CDAF. Help me here,
Bert

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Leonard Migliore
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Re: What is definition of a mirrorless camera ?
In reply to BertIverson, 7 months ago

BertIverson wrote:

Dodi73 wrote:

... On a side note, I do know the RX10 isn't a mirrorless camera ...

What is the definition of a mirrorless camera? I always assumed mirroless had no mirror and used CDAF. Help me here,
Bert

Funny, that question came up earlier today:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53003272

It's an elliptical definition.

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Leonard Migliore

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Ontario Gone
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Graham Hill, 7 months ago

Graham Hill wrote:

frank-in-toronto wrote:

why does every mirrorless improvement have to portend the "fall of dslrs"? at this point, mirrorless are no where near dslr in many performance factors. these may or may not matter to you and most dslr owners have a mirrorless too. why not? horses for courses. i don't believe even one dslr owner has said they wished mirrorless did not exist.

There simply is no rational reason why SLR's have to die in order for mirrorless to survive. Yet a certain group amongst the general mirrorless population (of which I am a part of), are absolutely fanatical, in a religious way to the point that they must proclaim the death of SLR's, DECADES in advance of when that might actually happen. This brings them joy. This brings them happiness. For the rest of us, it is tiresome to the extreme.

Not all mirrorless users are like this. Only a small, but very loud, subgroup. They are exceedingly irrational. I'm called an SLR user by them, despite the fact that I almost never use my SLR. I use mirrorless, both digitally and on film. It does not matter since I do not worship, and I do mean worship, the altar of mirrorless.

Completely agree and quite frankly im tired of all these religious zealots acting as the harbinger of death for the mirror. GET A LIFE !!!

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Bill Robb
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

Dodi73 wrote:

Wow guys

I reply to myself to be sure not to offense anyone, however please, mine was really a simple question, no need to put such "anger" in your replies. A simple "I don't think so because..." would have been enough.

Would a simple "there are at least a thousand threads on the subject, all you have to do is read every third subject line for the past 6 months to find them" have been enough?

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chkproductions
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Bill Robb, 7 months ago

Bill Robb wrote:

Dodi73 wrote:

Is it the beginning of the fall for DSLRs ?

Please make it stop.

+1.  Is it safe to come out yet?

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tko
tko
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bad idea
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

It's always the beginning of the end. It was the beginning of the end ten years ago. It will be the beginning of the end ten years from now. Mirrorless is always almost there. That stupid mirror. Not smart enough to die.

And you know what? The mirror will eventually die. So will the shutter and a lot of other things, and every camera made today will become obsolete. However, today's mirrorless will probably go obsolete faster because they use newer technology. Try selling an old NEX to see what I mean. Then look at Canon and Nikons's lens line up compared to say, the number of native FF E-mount lenses (five I believe, the fastest of which is a slow F1.8, no big telephoto, no fish eye, no extreme WA, etc. etc.)

Sure, you can use an adapter. Sure, you can manually focus and use old lenses. Sure, Sony might make more (or they might get out the market and never develop another lens.)

Yup, you can put on an old full size FF lens on with an adapter, fiddle with it, get it to work, and you know what? You're using old technology, and haven't saved any size.

Remember. Sensors and bodies don't gather light. Lenses do. The performance of a system is determined by the size of the lenses. A big sensor and a little lens acts just like a little sensor and a little lens.

So, today I can go on using my dinosaur, confident that no mirrorless can match its performance. And 3, 5, or 10 years from now, when some company becomes dominate with the latest technology, I can buy into that.

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Jim Cassatt
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

You may very well be right.  I shoot both a Fuji X-E1 and E2 plus a Canon 5D MKIII.  The newly announced Fuji X-T1 is narrowing the gap.  Missing is 25 years of system development.  No long autofocusing telephotos, no tilt shift lens not even a flash with hi speed sync let alone an easy way to use multiple flash.  Today I had a commercial portrait session.  A pair of flashes took me 2 minutes to set up with my 5D MKIII and a pair of 580 EXIIs.

I suspect that by the time Sony and Fuji systems catch up, the technology will have changed completely.

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sportyaccordy
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

Dodi73 wrote:

Wow guys

I reply to myself to be sure not to offense anyone, however please, mine was really a simple question, no need to put such "anger" in your replies. A simple "I don't think so because..." would have been enough.

On a side note, I do know the RX10 isn't a mirrorless camera, I simply mentioned as a third sample of a camera I found smart lately.

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All the best from northern Italy, Dino.
I'm on the NIK side of photography.

It's just been a topic beat to death here. DSLRs are not going anywhere; mirrorless will just complement them. Nikon would be foolish to throw away decades of lenses and customers, and even if they used their native lenses for a mirrorless body there are still advantages to DSLRs over mirrorless that will never change.

If your D600 works for you keep it.

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MRM4350
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Re: The rise of (serious) mirrorless: Sony Alpha 7 and Fuji X-T1
In reply to Dodi73, 7 months ago

That side bar only indicates which camera is receiving the most interest on DPReview, not actually the most popular in terms of actually being used. I prefer a DSLR, but I still check out all new models. That doesn't mean I'm dropping my DSLR and switching to a miniature TV set to take pictures with.

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Ed B
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Re: What is definition of a mirrorless camera ?
In reply to BertIverson, 7 months ago

BertIverson wrote:

Dodi73 wrote:

... On a side note, I do know the RX10 isn't a mirrorless camera ...

What is the definition of a mirrorless camera? I always assumed mirroless had no mirror and used CDAF. Help me here,
Bert

Basically, a mirrorless camera is an interchangeable lens camera with a mechanical shutter that doesn't have a mirror and utilizes an electronic viewfinder.

Even though a compact camera doesn't have a mirror it doesn't fall into the mirrorless category because it's not an interchangeable lens camera and it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.

Compact cameras have electronic shutters.

When mirrorless cameras first came out there were many suggestions and arguments about what to call them. At first they were called EVIL cameras (electronic viewfinder interchangeable lens) but that name didn't go over very well, for obvious reasons.

After much debate the term "mirrorless" was chosen but even that name is confusing to many people because compacts don't have a mirror either.

When the term mirrorless was first used compact cameras were generally called "point & shoot" cameras and are still called this by some companies (Canon for one); however, many people disliked the term point & shoot because their cameras where much more advanced than a simple point & shoot.

The general term compact became the acceptable category.

Many people on these forums get confused and that's understandable. Some people even confuse some of the Fuji cameras with a rangefinder. Naturally, they are not and only look similar to a rangefinder.

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BertIverson
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Thanks Leonard -- Re: What is definition of a mirrorless camera ?
In reply to Leonard Migliore, 7 months ago

Leonard Migliore wrote:

BertIverson wrote:

Dodi73 wrote:

... On a side note, I do know the RX10 isn't a mirrorless camera ...

What is the definition of a mirrorless camera? I always assumed mirroless had no mirror and used CDAF. Help me here,
Bert

Funny, that question came up earlier today:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53003272

It's an elliptical definition.

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Leonard Migliore

Ok so it must be IL.

Thanks,
Bert

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Lumixdude
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For me the DSLR is dead, but that's not the case for everyone.
In reply to BertIverson, 7 months ago

When you can pick up a mirrorless camera with APS-C optics, in a small body unless you have a specific reason for a DSLR there's no need. A DSLR will always have more room in its body for better features, but for the average casual to semi-professional shooter which the majority out there represent there's simply no need.

A small kit with one or two lenses is all you need and the ability to grab and go simply means that you get out there and take more shots, rather than sitting here on an internet forum gripping with each other over whether Canon or Nikon is better because you're sick and tired of lugging around your 6D and overnight travel bag sized lens kit just to go out and shoot.

I enjoy the journey as much as the shots, and mirrorless cameras allow me to do that.

Ed B wrote:

Compact cameras have electronic shutters.

Actually this isn't the case My LX7 has an electronic shutter, but only if you cripple it to 3.5 megapixels and shoot in burst mode for 40 or 60 frames per second. Otherwise it has a mechanic shutter which shoots at up to 11frames per second... Some compacts may be electronic only but not the one I use.

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Ed B
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Re: For me the DSLR is dead, but that's not the case for everyone.
In reply to Lumixdude, 7 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

When you can pick up a mirrorless camera with APS-C optics, in a small body unless you have a specific reason for a DSLR there's no need. A DSLR will always have more room in its body for better features, but for the average casual to semi-professional shooter which the majority out there represent there's simply no need.

A small kit with one or two lenses is all you need and the ability to grab and go simply means that you get out there and take more shots, rather than sitting here on an internet forum gripping with each other over whether Canon or Nikon is better because you're sick and tired of lugging around your 6D and overnight travel bag sized lens kit just to go out and shoot.

I enjoy the journey as much as the shots, and mirrorless cameras allow me to do that.

Ed B wrote:

Compact cameras have electronic shutters.

Actually this isn't the case My LX7 has an electronic shutter, but only if you cripple it to 3.5 megapixels and shoot in burst mode for 40 or 60 frames per second. Otherwise it has a mechanic shutter which shoots at up to 11frames per second... Some compacts may be electronic only but not the one I use.

I didn't know that. Thank you.

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Ontario Gone
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Re: For me the DSLR is dead, but that's not the case for everyone.
In reply to Ed B, 7 months ago

Ed B wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Compact cameras have electronic shutters.

Actually this isn't the case My LX7 has an electronic shutter, but only if you cripple it to 3.5 megapixels and shoot in burst mode for 40 or 60 frames per second. Otherwise it has a mechanic shutter which shoots at up to 11frames per second... Some compacts may be electronic only but not the one I use.

I didn't know that. Thank you.

This plus some mirrorless cams have E shutter options. As scan speeds get faster, or as CCD is improved and used, there will eventually be mirrorless that have only E shutters. I personally would love for  things to advance this far, one less moving part and one thing less to wear out. Shutters life is listed for a reason, that is usually the first thing to go.

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