Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Stephan K
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Re: Big battery for 600+ shots, double SD card, organic matrix
In reply to Tomiki, 8 months ago

There is no reason mirrorless cannot eventually have the features of DSLR. No reason AF cannot be equal in mirrorless.  Leaving aside those features that can eventually be added to mirrorless, intrinsic advantages of mirrorless:

1. Smaller

2. Additional info and low-light enhancement of EVF

3. No mirror slap vibration

4. Higher frames per second, no mirror

Advantages of DSLR:

1. Huge lens selection (don't underestimate)

2. Some protection from dust on sensor

3. Current lower prices due to greater volume due to longer time in market

Have I left out anything?

Cost saving of mirror box is probably similar to additional cost of EVF.

It will be a slow process, but there will be a gradual move to mirrorless as their advantages are greater.

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Limburger
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

The Fuji system needs some more lenses and a bigger choice of flashes.

DSLR's will be around as long they keep doing what they are good or at least better at.

AF and large buffers for bursts are important as are lenses that beyond 300mm eq.

The Fuji system now for certain types of shooting absolutely is an alternative yet not the only one.

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Cheers Mike

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Mark Carr
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

Hi,

I have not had an opportunity to shoot, or even handle, an "X" cam, but there are a few instances when I think a DSLR's will prevail.

1) Underwater Photography - I do not know of a single manufacturer that has produced a dedicated underwater housing for a mirrorless camera.

2) Wildlife - 200mm just won't work, even if you were to add a 1.4x teleconverter. For some type of wildlife photography, i.e. birding, even a 500mm lens often comes up short.

3) Bad Climate - I don't believe any of the Fuji cams or lenses are weather sealed, at least thus far. I live in the tropics and have lost two Fuji "S" cams and two Tamron lenses that weren't weather sealed. If you're shooting under normal weather conditions then perhaps this isn't a concern, but excessive heat, humidity and cold might demand a sealed DSLR body.

Comments welcome!

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Kind regards,
Mark

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tko
tko
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mirrorless crusaders
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

People are on a crusade, but then they "want" to keep it civil? Meaning only use arguments they like--and brand anyone they don't like as "naysayers." It's always "mirrorless will become better," which translated means "IT'S NOT THERE YET."

Why does anyone care what's inside the box as long as it works? You'd think everyone was a vampire, and can't take photos of their friends w/a mirrorless. Its as dumb as asking for a certain processor, a certain battery, a certain sensor. "I want 10 FPS for my sports shooting" is hard to argue with. "I want a 10 layer circuit board on the inside" is meaningless. Performance, not how the d*mn thing is built.

So here's my "civil" answer. Mirroless doesn't have a single advantage. Shorter battery life, similar size for same performance, more expensive. The best it can do is equal a dSLR performance.

Weight and size? The only reason mirrorless appears smaller is because they use cheaper, slower, more plasticity lenses, and smaller sensors. A small sensor dSLR with be within a few ounces of the same mirrorless. Why wouldn't it? A mirror weighs a few ounces, but you need larger batteries to drive the additional electronics for the same life. A wash. There are no magical lenses that violate the rules of physics, no fairy dust for sensors. Small sensor = small lenses = lower performance. If that performance is adequate for you, great, but it's not an apples to apples comparison.

If someone would like a smaller, lower performance system, no argument. There's probably many needs and wants, and indeed, the performance of M43rds may meet many peoples needs. But the word "mirrorless" seems to have acquired a magical meaning in some people's head. One day mirrorless shall rule the world, and I will be happy. I have a dream . . . "

Ha, in 5 years everyone will want shutterless. Some vendor will make a 1/4th size sensor with no shutter and claim it's smaller and lighter. Yeah, mirrorless will be yesterdays fad. Can't have any of those old fashion mechanical shutters. One day shutterless will rule the world. Just you wait and see . . .

Can we please not mention FF or larger sensor. I'd really like to know what is left as an advantage for DSLR?

Fine, but to be fair can we please not mention size and weight, since those aren't photographic performance areas; nothing about what's on the inside; and nothing about what's going to happen in the future (your honor, speculation, I object.) Just pure photographic performance TODAY.

Also, can we please try hard to keep this civil?

Well that's up to you, but kind of hard, since you already gleefully titled your post "two more nails in the dSLR coffin." Guess your biases are showing, aren't they?

And you already used a bad word: naysayer--someone with an aggressively negative attitude. So if I disagree with you, I'm a bad person? I think you're kind of passive-aggressive, asking to keep it civil, while putting your own little digs in right at the start.

Maybe even refrain from judging others opinion and just state our own.

So you don't want a discussion? Sure, meaning you don't get to criticize my response either. And you don't think labeling people who don't agree with you as "naysayers" isn't an opinion?

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whiteyblack
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

stimpy wrote:

Mirroless can't compete with the focus speed of DSLRs yet, I believe one day they will, but it doesn't look like happening any time soon,

How can you say this? A matter of days ago, nobody could have predicted the new Fuji with this kind of EVF, other than Fuji connected people of course. It just hit us, bam!! How do you know somebody else won't do the same with on sensor PDAF?

Um... That happened in 2011. It's called the Nikon V1 and its AF is absolutely DSLR-competitive. Not D4 class, but better than my D300. It certainly has weaknesses, but action shooting is not one of them.

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Tim C.
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Re: I hope for more innovative ideas
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

bigpigbig wrote:

Sure there will be naysayers.

But I really believe that the mirrorless camera will replace the DSLR (eventually).

First, the EVF will get better and better and better and better. Eventually, it will be like looking through the lens like an OVF only better. Is it there yet, no. But the X-T1 is one step closer.

.005 second lag. Surely, that looks live.

.77x view with 38 degree diagonal view.

Secondly, AF-C 8 fps predictive auto focus that works. (Well it sure appears to)

This is still one shooting demand that normally makes me grab the DSLR. I am hopeful the X-T1 really does take over this need.

So what is left...

Well, you tell me.

Can we please not mention FF or larger sensor. I'd really like to know what is left as an advantage for DSLR?

Also, can we please try hard to keep this civil?

Maybe even refrain from judging others opinion and just state our own.

I think the dSLR manufacturers will respond to mirrorless cameras with other innovative ideas.  Kudos to companies like Fujifilm and Sony for pushing the envelope when it comes to digital technology.  I hope other camera manufacturers will respond by shifting their focus on producing quality cameras instead of being stuck in the megapixel rat race.

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Robgo2
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

As the old saying goes:  It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future.  Nevertheless, I will go out on a limb and predict that when EVFs become as clear and responsive as the best LCD screens and mirrorless autofocus approaches DSLR speed, there will be little reason for anyone to prefer SLRs other than a personal preference for OVFs.  I have no idea when that day will come, but I would bet it is much closer than most people think.

Rob

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Red G8R
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

Whats wrong with big cameras? There will always be a place in the market for varying camera types.

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Peter
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Ontario Gone
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to Limburger, 8 months ago

Limburger wrote:

The Fuji system needs some more lenses and a bigger choice of flashes.

DSLR's will be around as long they keep doing what they are good or at least better at.

AF and large buffers for bursts are important as are lenses that beyond 300mm eq.

The Fuji system now for certain types of shooting absolutely is an alternative yet not the only one.

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Cheers Mike

Im happy to see Fuji push the format forward, but i think i will be passing as well. I think the lenses need a bit of work, and still no E shutter which i insist on having. Im not much for flash unless it's for macro. I am happy to see the rest of the mirrorless market improve to compete, it will make all of them better.

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Ontario Gone
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to Robgo2, 8 months ago

Robgo2 wrote:

As the old saying goes: It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Nevertheless, I will go out on a limb and predict that when EVFs become as clear and responsive as the best LCD screens and mirrorless autofocus approaches DSLR speed, there will be little reason for anyone to prefer SLRs other than a personal preference for OVFs. I have no idea when that day will come, but I would bet it is much closer than most people think.

Rob

I  think you are right but i also have a prediction. I predict this is a personal war for some of these guys and they will never switch over because to them, that is admitting they are wrong. How many people on here alone do we see spouting nonstop inadequacies of mirrorless? How will they feel if a year or two later, they are holding one? It will be like todays film enthusiasts, clinging to a retired technology with obvious disadvantages all the while claiming they like the "feel".

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Midwest
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

bigpigbig wrote:

First, the EVF will get better and better and better and better. Eventually, it will be like looking through the lens like an OVF only better. Is it there yet, no. But the X-T1 is one step closer.

Next, the portable MP3 player - even in your smart phone - will sound better than even a live performance. Nobody will ever want to go to a concert again because the electronic representation is BETTER than what it represents.

You are basing your beliefs on a lot of assumptions which have not been proven and we can't know when they will happen, or if.

Why are so many people trying to kill off the DSLR? Why do they care so much? I think it's to prove that they are right about another (their) kind of camera being better, since that seems to be their only hope of doing so. They aren't winning their argument so they are jumping to what they hope will be the conclusion. It's like a tennis player who is down 40-love and says 'yes, but my opponent seems to be sweating, I am becoming a better player with each return, I'm sure I'm going to win so that makes me the better player.'

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justin_time
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to Mark Carr, 8 months ago

Mark Carr wrote:

Hi,

I have not had an opportunity to shoot, or even handle, an "X" cam, but there are a few instances when I think a DSLR's will prevail.

1) Underwater Photography - I do not know of a single manufacturer that has produced a dedicated underwater housing for a mirrorless camera.

Olympus OM-D EM5 has underwater housing

2) Wildlife - 200mm just won't work, even if you were to add a 1.4x teleconverter. For some type of wildlife photography, i.e. birding, even a 500mm lens often comes up short.

Agreed, but there is a Super telephoto zoom on Fuji's roadmap. I just hope its 400mm and that would be OK for me.

3) Bad Climate - I don't believe any of the Fuji cams or lenses are weather sealed, at least thus far. I live in the tropics and have lost two Fuji "S" cams and two Tamron lenses that weren't weather sealed. If you're shooting under normal weather conditions then perhaps this isn't a concern, but excessive heat, humidity and cold might demand a sealed DSLR body.

well the X-T1 is weather sealed and the road map has 3 weather sealed lenses this year.  Only time will tell wheter they are up to the resistance of Nikon, canon pro camera.

Comments welcome!

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Kind regards,
Mark

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John Gellings
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

bigpigbig wrote:

Sure there will be naysayers.

But I really believe that the mirrorless camera will replace the DSLR (eventually).

Are you in the camera design business?

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Joachim Gerstl
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

8 fps with AF. I believe it when I see it. In real life.

It would be great if Fuji nailed AF this time it's still hard to believe. The 0,08s AF-time is exactly the time they mentioned for the X-E2 with the 14mm too.

Fast AF for static objects is one thing. High speed focus tracking something completely different.

Joachim
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Limburger
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

Limburger wrote:

The Fuji system needs some more lenses and a bigger choice of flashes.

DSLR's will be around as long they keep doing what they are good or at least better at.

AF and large buffers for bursts are important as are lenses that beyond 300mm eq.

The Fuji system now for certain types of shooting absolutely is an alternative yet not the only one.

-- hide signature --

Cheers Mike

Im happy to see Fuji push the format forward, but i think i will be passing as well. I think the lenses need a bit of work, and still no E shutter which i insist on having. Im not much for flash unless it's for macro. I am happy to see the rest of the mirrorless market improve to compete, it will make all of them better.

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Good point there. Fuji says aps-c is the future (or at least they buid theirs on it).

As for lenses I got a 15-85 and 70-200 for my dslr, so the 18-55 and 55-200 would cover all the basics for me.

If not invested into dslr the X-T1 with above lenses would be on my shortlist.

Before I got my X100 I did try the X-E1. Very nice but I wasn't to invest into a new system aside dslr, I just wanted a compact with good IQ. The X100 is also fun to use.

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Cheers Mike

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Limburger
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to Joachim Gerstl, 8 months ago

Joachim Gerstl wrote:

8 fps with AF. I believe it when I see it. In real life.

It would be great if Fuji nailed AF this time it's still hard to believe. The 0,08s AF-time is exactly the time they mentioned for the X-E2 with the 14mm too.

Fast AF for static objects is one thing. High speed focus tracking something completely different.

Joachim
http://www.littlebigtravelingcamera.com

Not usefull but fun.

I was out shooting a building and took a picture, well about eight or so actually...forgot the camera was still in continous high

And yes, if Fuji nails 8fps with a reasonable yield the X-T1 will be sold out at release.

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Cheers Mike

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Ontario Gone
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to Midwest, 8 months ago

Midwest wrote:

Why are so many people trying to kill off the DSLR? Why do they care so much? I think it's to prove that they are right about another (their) kind of camera being better,

This theory is wrong, and i am proof. I have never owned a MILC, yet i hope the mirror dies ASAP. I have owned 1 SLT and 3 DSLRs. To me, mirrorless offers advantages that i prefer much more than any advantages that a DSLR offers. So to me, im "hoping" the DSLR dies. If it does, all that is left is mirrorless, and i will have a greater selection of cameras to buy. If DSLRs stay mainstream, MILC will stay niche, and i have less to choose from. It comes down to happiness, if we want opposite things, we cannot both be happy.

It is similar to two guys both applying for the same promotion at work. Only one guy can get it, it's a competition, and there has to be a loser. You like what  you like, i like what i like. I do agree with you on one point, i think some people don't want to admit they are wrong, even though logic tells us that the mirror will die.

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CeleryBeats
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to stimpy, 8 months ago

And FF is another advantage, I acknowledge you don't want to talk about that, but it's a huge advantage so you can't just gloss over it.

It is not a HUGE advantage. In a practical sense in most cases it is even irrelevant.

Size, usability, ergonomics, weight, things like focus peaking etc.. Those are huge advantages in a more practical sense.

The AF from a nikon D800 for example. For me as a user, that's the one reason i would grab it instead of my XE-2. And video

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brooklyn geezer
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Has anyone mentioned tethering -
In reply to bigpigbig, 8 months ago

I have not read through whole thread yet. It Drives me crazy that none of the mirror less systems don't tether with C1 and/or LR . Ideally C1 but even LR would be acceptable. Why is this? Most professional studio photographers I know of use C1 as capture software with tethering and it would be nice to be able to do this with Fuji.

Yes there are workarounds and patches with eyefi / watched folders etc - but nothing that has such a an established work flow from a huge professional user base. I would love to see Fuji or other mirror less systems supported by an established tethering sollution.

I had an Oly e5 4/3rds that was a beauty in everyway (except size- yes still a dslr) but did not tether and I missed that.

I owned and had been testing/using xE2 and some fuji lenses and returned not long ago when I realized x-t1 was just around corner.

I am still on fence if to invest in fuji or not. primarily because of lack of focus speed, size of print from APC vs D800, and lack of tethering. Also - Rental houses in NY support cannon and nikon with full range of lenses - not so easy with Fuj - For that  shoot where you want a lens you don't own.

If I could afford both a d800 and a 100s, xe2 or maybe now xt1 I would buy both.

Not sure where I will land. SLR's tend to be paperweights more than I would like for me but I would also like to be able to tether rather easily and have fast af (maybe xt-1 is as good as my old e5?).

I loved the xe2 - I didn't like having to learn new software and implement new workflow for raw (still the case with xt-1 unless I call LR good enough) , worry over desire (or give up ability) to print larger than 17wide in the near future, and the AF issues with mirrorless.  I cant have it all - yet. Which is too bad cause yet is now and it is past time for me commit to new system.

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Ontario Gone
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Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
In reply to CeleryBeats, 8 months ago

CeleryBeats wrote:

And FF is another advantage, I acknowledge you don't want to talk about that, but it's a huge advantage so you can't just gloss over it.

It is not a HUGE advantage. In a practical sense in most cases it is even irrelevant.

Size, usability, ergonomics, weight, things like focus peaking etc.. Those are huge advantages in a more practical sense.

The AF from a nikon D800 for example. For me as a user, that's the one reason i would grab it instead of my XE-2. And video

If i had a dollar for every time i heard about DOF. Odd, people use "preference" to explain why they like OVF for example, but nobody understands that not everybody likes super thin DOF. That is just as much a preference as anything else. I like seperation, but i don't need it to the extent a FF F1.2 offers. Something in the order of a F2.8 would offer enough for me, while making focusing much more accurate.

As you say, other things like peaking make a huge difference, but are completely overlooked. Some people just don't want to admit the truth, which is why the FF a7/r gets so much hate.

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