Problem with Sony A7, reflections on the sensor.

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
Mauro.B
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Yes, KR pointed that out first.
In reply to Surak, 11 months ago
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SQLGuy
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Re: Yes, KR pointed that out first.
In reply to Mauro.B, 11 months ago

Looks like an opportunity for adapter makers to offer adapters with a built-in anti-reflective (both sides) filter in them.

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Mauro.B
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Your guess' totally wrong
In reply to Trollmann, 11 months ago

Trollmann wrote:

Interesting thread!

Seems like the initial problem is reflection from the rear element of the lens (in the early digital days this was a BIG issue and it did not take lone before lens makers had all their lenses coated with superb anti reflection coatings on the rear lens element). Reflection from sensors are real, with film it was no issue - and lots of older lenses have uncoated or poorly coated rear lens elements.

Had the Minolta 2.8/16 mm fish eye (film day lens) and there was a plethoria of reflections when used with my Minolta digital camera - with film there was almost none. Simply gave up the lens as a digital alternative.

So I guess (note: I do not know) the lens is to blame and not the sensor per se.

Diffraction spikes (like rays around the sun when using a small aperture) is caused by diffraction in the aperture blades. Circular apertures cause diffraction rings and apertures with angles (like a four or five blade aperture) cause diffraction spikes (and some other not that easy to spot diffraction pattern).

There is a lot of theory about reflective sensor surfaces and diffraction but mentioning things like these on a forum usually open cans of worms. Lots of misconceptions...

A7r does not do that unless pushed hard, like sun into the frame, and in the latter case you have to squint to notice.

OTTH, the A7r draws fat halos around red lights in night shots.

M

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Petroglyph
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Re: Take this back... sensor covering too reflective?
In reply to viking79, 11 months ago

viking79 wrote:

viking79 wrote:

The lens likely wasn't designed for highly reflective digital sensors so you get a lot of reflections off the sensor. Newer lenses have better coatings on the rear elements to kill these off.

I notice the same BTW.

Those reflections are not adapter issues, they look like light hitting the sensor then hitting the rear element of the lens, then hitting the sensor, etc.

Eric

I take this back, it appears to be reflections off or internal to the filter stack? This is definitely a sensor issue, I just figured it was flare from the FE 35mm f/2.8 when I tried it. I commented on this in my review last month.

What makes me change my mind is a lens that is fine on the D610 or something should be the same on the A7, if putting it on the A7 causes those patterns (and they really don't appear adapter related) but putting it on the A7r with the same adapter (or non adapted FE 35mm) and they go away? That is the filter stack or sensor itself.

If this is from the A7 it won't change my usage of it, but it does give a good reason to get the A7r instead (if you take night cityscape photos or landscapes with the sun in the frame).

Eric

I didn't see this in 5-6 thousand shots with a NEX-7.  Doesn't really prove anything but I do use older lenses on the NEX.  Might tend to indicate an A7 only problem but as I said not really any proof.

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SQLGuy
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Re: Yes, KR pointed that out first.
In reply to SQLGuy, 11 months ago

I found these: http://www.edmundoptics.com/optics/windows-diffusers/visible-windows/anti-reflection-ar-coated-high-efficiency-windows/48926

They would require me to open up the ID of my Fotasy FD/E adapter by about 3mm to install them. Too bad they don't have something just a bit smaller in diameter, but I might give this a try...

Edit: Just thought about this some more, and it wouldn't help. The AR coating really needs to be on the lens and/or the sensor, since an AR window in the middle is still doing to do nothing to stop reflections bouncing back and forth between these two surfaces.

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Mauro.B
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Adapters have nothing to do with that.
In reply to SQLGuy, 11 months ago

SQLGuy wrote:

Looks like an opportunity for adapter makers to offer adapters with a built-in anti-reflective (both sides) filter in them.

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A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

The adapters' supposed internal reflections have been worked to death with gaffer, sugru and stuff: no change .

The A7 reflections look like a diffracted and enlarged reflection of sensor's pixel pattern, either reflected back to the rear lens and then again onto the sensor, or the effect of angled rays being furterly diffracted by sensor glass cover.

M

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Mauro.B
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I had 2 Leica M 240
In reply to viking79, 11 months ago

viking79 wrote:

Just to add, this is a problem since the lens sits so close to the sensor. Even newer lenses do this to some degree (albeit much less). The Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 does this.

So maybe it is in part the sensor cover being overly reflective, but I don't think it is worse than any other short flange distance full frame mirrorless camera with CMOS sensor (hint, there is only 1 other). I can't for the life of me find any info about the new Leica M, since the name is too generic to search for to see if it is also an issue with it.

I imagine the same is visible from the NEX series cameras with these lenses?

Eric

M240 has an almost flawless performance in night shots. Btw, the M9 is even better.

m

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Kiril Karaatanasov
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Strane....
In reply to PRESENZA76, 11 months ago

Strange my zeiss 35/2.8 seems to perform very well. I do not get much flare with it let alone any reflections...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kirilk/11315262355/sizes/l/

note that the pictures was taken through hotel window so perhaps some of the effects come from it.

I do see some flares in some of the lights. Really not much out of ordinary.

Also the sensor itself cannot do flares. This is complete non-sense. Light cannot be curved or bent. Light can be reflected off of reflective surface.

More likely there is something else in the box that is causing internal reflections. With adapted lenses the adapter is to be checked first.

With native lenses it may be that Sony have left behind some reflective surface on the shutter mechanism or something.

Also it is possible that we see lens defects on the 35/2.8

Just please stop the sensor flare non-sense.

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geo444
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Reflections on the Sony A7's low-pass filter (AA) ?...
In reply to PRESENZA76, 11 months ago

Reflections on the Sony A7's low-pass filter (AA) ?

versus the A7R that has No AA filter...
so no problem !

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stoppingdown
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Re: Lens fault, not sensors problem...
In reply to viking79, 11 months ago

viking79 wrote:

I imagine the same is visible from the NEX series cameras with these lenses?

Do you think the weaker green blobs here could be the same problem (they seem roughly placed in grid) or are they just regular flare?

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Mauro.B
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Flare [nt]
In reply to stoppingdown, 11 months ago

stoppingdown wrote:

viking79 wrote:

I imagine the same is visible from the NEX series cameras with these lenses?

Do you think the weaker green blobs here could be the same problem (they seem roughly placed in grid) or are they just regular flare?

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SQLGuy
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Re: Reflections between sensor and rear element
In reply to Mauro.B, 11 months ago

I wonder if a polarizer would help. Polarizers reduce glare off of non-metallic surfaces, so polarized light might also be better able to pass through the sensor cover rather than reflecting off of it.

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PRESENZA76
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Re: Reflections between sensor and rear element
In reply to SQLGuy, 11 months ago

SQLGuy wrote:

I wonder if a polarizer would help. Polarizers reduce glare off of non-metallic surfaces, so polarized light might also be better able to pass through the sensor cover rather than reflecting off of it.

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With CPL

SQLGuy wrote:

I wonder if a polarizer would help. Polarizers reduce glare off of non-metallic surfaces, so polarized light might also be better able to pass through the sensor cover rather than reflecting off of it.

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stoppingdown
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Re: Reflections between sensor and rear element
In reply to PRESENZA76, 11 months ago

I think you also changed aperture, right? Both have same ISO and shutter speed, so the one with the polariser should have compensated 1+EV... right?

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secondclaw
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Re: Problem with Sony A7, reflections on the sensor.
In reply to PRESENZA76, 11 months ago

I have encountered this issue with A7R and metabones adapter so I ended up flocking insides of the adapter with optically non-reflective paper, and it mostly mitigated the issue. It's still there but tolerable.

Here's a shot that produced a starburst effect, and no flares, in the moon or the lights on the side. It's at f9, but result's pretty much the same at f11.

A7R + Metabones 3 + Zeiss 21mm f2.8 ZE, 30s @ f/9

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viking79
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Definitely the same thing
In reply to stoppingdown, 11 months ago

The smaller green blobs are the same grid aligned flare spots we have seen on A7 only.  They repeat like that over a pattern.  Something definitely up with A7 sensor cover.

Eric

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viking79
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Re: Reflections on the Sony A7's low-pass filter (AA) ?...
In reply to geo444, 11 months ago

geo444 wrote:

Reflections on the Sony A7's low-pass filter (AA) ?

versus the A7R that has No AA filter...
so no problem !

Even if the A7r has no AA filter, it still has a glass plate in its place, so there is not reason for A7 to perform worse here, maybe they don't have as good of coating on it or something.

Eric

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djp58
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A7R has similar issue w/FE35
In reply to PRESENZA76, 11 months ago

This issue is not just on the A7. I've seen it on A7R, though only when shooting direct into sun with a lot of snow. Here is an example taken at F20, though I still at issues as low as f7.1, just not as pronounced.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/114429158@N08/12166095593/

For me it's not an issue - I've taken more than 1,000 shots and this is the only time I've seen an issue with this combo.

David

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Mel Snyder
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Re: Lens fault, not sensors problem...
In reply to kimca, 11 months ago

kimca wrote:

I get the same artefacts with the A7 and FE35, but not with the FE55. I had thought it a problem with the FE35, but I guess not. Its fairly annoying as it happens in sunlight, and you cannot get a sunstar without it... Everything else about the camera is stunning, mind.

A7 with FE35

There's something weird here.Unlike the original post, the dots seem quite regular in rows - is there a lenticular filter over the sensor array?

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stevo23
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Re: Problem with Sony A7, reflections on the sensor.
In reply to seachicken2000, 11 months ago

seachicken2000 wrote:

MisterHairy wrote:

seachicken2000 wrote:

I saw the same on this image from SLRclub from the SEL 24-70mm f/4 on the A7. I assumed it was a characteristic of the lens. It's much more worrying if it's the sensor. I wonder whether it's only the A7, or does the A7r also do this.

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I'll give it a try with my A7r later on. Not noticed it yet (not that I have many night shots though).

Thanks. I did a little digging on Flickr, and the A7r seems OK. Here's one (A7r + Zeiss 35mm) that ought to have shown this, but looks very clean.

Look again - this image is starting to display the issue. Look carefully at the lights on the far left. Further, its not every light in the darkness that will cause the problem.

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