extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
joger
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to MarshallG, 7 months ago

MarshallG wrote:

I wouldn't assume that the gfx card or display supports 4k60 30-bit RGB unless the documentation sprcifically says so. That's the top limit of baseband video resolution today. In not saying it's impossible, just that if the product doesn't clearly say that it supports it, then then product most likely does not.

on both sides I found evidence that they should support 3840x2160P60 30-bit

especially for the GPU - just have a look here and for the Lenovo it would make no sense to specify 10 bit per channel if it would not work at 60 fps.

But let's be skeptical and wait for evidence - OS X can't support currently 10 bit anyway and I wouldn't be surprised if this is due for the next OS step.

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Wide - Gamut trumps resolution for Photography.
In reply to joger, 7 months ago

If the color spectrum is not wide gamut, all the pixels in the world will not reveal what is in your raw files and your post processing will never be correct.

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joger
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Re: Wide - Gamut trumps resolution for Photography.
In reply to user_name, 7 months ago

user_name wrote:

If the color spectrum is not wide gamut, all the pixels in the world will not reveal what is in your raw files and your post processing will never be correct.

fully agree - you need a wide gamut display to do that and not a single Apple display is currently a wide gamut display!!

As a photographer the target should always be to have a display that has as least as much color gamut as all the other devices you're syncing up with. Then proofing is possible and you actually see what you're doing and you can judge your workflow.

The before mentioned UHD displays are more or less all sRGB color gamut with two exceptions - the 31,5 inch Samsung and LG are wide gamut IPS panels and they probably cost far north of 3 k USD (±)

BUT 800 USD for a 10 bit UHD display with sRGB is surely better then 1 k USD for an Apple 27" Cinema Display with sRGB and only 2560x1440 Pixel 

And you can sell the UHD sRGB display as soon as an affordable wide gamut UHD display appears on the market - the price point is simply so low that it is a no-brainer to do that - you could only loose let's say 300 to 400 USD and you can use it with the target to acquire a better gamut display when the prices come down - in other words - I am not willing to spend 3 k USD on a display knowing it will come down over time in price.

The Mac PRO on the other side won't come down significantly in pricing - that never happened at Apple.

So you might loose 300 USD but at that point in time the wide gamut UHD displays will be ⅓ to ⅔ cheaper then today and the uplift in pricing on your used UHD display will be a fraction of the cost you'd have to pay today and you've probably had for two years the benefit of the nice resolution enhancement - not a bad deal IMHO

I do miss a wide gamut display but I miss the higher resolution even more and I know the limitations of my workflow and I am willing to accept it for another period of time knowing that the loss of investment is probably near to zero. But the win in eye candy though the higher resolution is probably more then compensating for the lower color gamut.

It's just the really low price that makes these new dispels so attractive - the videos on youtube and elsewhere don't shot any color uniformity problems and no big viewing angle dependence of the illumination - in fact the Lenovo Pro2840m just looks gorgeous - at least on par with my 27" Cinema Display - and I've been working with that display since it came out and I am o.k. with the color gamut knowing the areas of small gamut - makes sense I think.

And yes - color gamut is important but not for me at 3 k USD for a monitor - I#d assume that the IPS panels with wide gamut and UHD or bigger resolutions will get to 1500 USD over time in one to two years from now. you sell your 800 USD sRGB UHD display for 400 USD and spend in total maybe 1900 USD and save maybe 1100 to 1600 USD - sounds lie a good deal to me

(that money can be invested e.g. in photo trips)

BTW - I received my (maxed out) 13 inch rMBP last Monday and had some time to play with it - it' just amazing to work with that resolution enhancement - even though the color gamut of the rMBP is just sRGB it is amazing to look at 2560 pixel on a 13 inch display - even the scaled 1680 pixel resolution looks gorgeous - that's the effect i like to see for all my applications including non photo related work - I'll work on the gamut later but it's definitely on my list as the last step in display technology needed.

So you're right from a photographer's perspective but you're maybe missing the point of a clever investment strategy or you simply trade off resolution vs color gamut. (which is maybe necessary due to clients that need that treatment - I have to admit)

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joger
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Re: Wide - Gamut trumps resolution for Photography.
In reply to joger, 7 months ago

some further info on the Lenovo

http://youtu.be/ZB9qhsh3pxw

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williamio
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to joger, 7 months ago

can anyone confirm that if I were to use a 4K @ 60Hz, I need 2x HDMI ports to drive that kind of bandwidth or 1x display port 1.2?

I know for sure 1x dp port 1.2 can do that, but not sure about 2x HDMI ports.

I need 60Hz, not 30Hz.

Thanks,

@W

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joger
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to williamio, 7 months ago

williamio wrote:

can anyone confirm that if I were to use a 4K @ 60Hz, I need 2x HDMI ports to drive that kind of bandwidth or 1x display port 1.2?

I know for sure 1x dp port 1.2 can do that, but not sure about 2x HDMI ports.

I need 60Hz, not 30Hz.

Thanks,

@W

forget about 2x HDMI on a MAC - simply because no MAC currently have 2 x HDMI.

From the OS X side that should be easy because you could combine a bigger array of screens but I am not aware that there is any UHD Display out that could use that kind of signals.

I would exclude dual-HDMI as a viable solution.

(I could eb wrong here)

DP 1.2 will definitely work and most current MACs have that and lot's of GPUs as well

you can have a look here

btw - in Europe you have to pay import taxes on HDMI ports - thart's also the reason why you'll find only a limited number of HDMI ports on monitors to allow a lower sales price

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joger
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to joger, 7 months ago

btw - if you own e.g. a Mac Mini and you think of using the built in HDMI and the Thunderbolt port forget about that too because the HDMI on the Mini is limited to 1920x1080P60 (at least mine was) and the HD4000 Intel graphics should also have problems with UHD @ 60 Hz - even the new rMBP don't support that

the only two ways to get UHD @ 60 Hz now on MAC are either buy a Mac PRO or a dedicated compatible GPU that is capable of doing that - that said - it might work attaching such a GPU in a TB casing if you happen to own a MAC without internal PCIe slots

http://sonnettech.com/product/echoexpress3d.html

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williamio
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to joger, 7 months ago

joger wrote:

btw - if you own e.g. a Mac Mini and you think of using the built in HDMI and the Thunderbolt port forget about that too because the HDMI on the Mini is limited to 1920x1080P60 (at least mine was) and the HD4000 Intel graphics should also have problems with UHD @ 60 Hz - even the new rMBP don't support that

the only two ways to get UHD @ 60 Hz now on MAC are either buy a Mac PRO or a dedicated compatible GPU that is capable of doing that - that said - it might work attaching such a GPU in a TB casing if you happen to own a MAC without internal PCIe slots

http://sonnettech.com/product/echoexpress3d.html

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Thanks! very good information! I did not know Mac does not support 2x HDMI output, any particular reason why it can't? can I use one mDP (or thunderbolt) to HDMI adapter and another one from on board HDMI port so I can have 2x HDMIs outputs to the 4K monitor @ 60Hz....

Again, thanks!

@W

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joger
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to williamio, 7 months ago

williamio wrote:

joger wrote:

btw - if you own e.g. a Mac Mini and you think of using the built in HDMI and the Thunderbolt port forget about that too because the HDMI on the Mini is limited to 1920x1080P60 (at least mine was) and the HD4000 Intel graphics should also have problems with UHD @ 60 Hz - even the new rMBP don't support that

the only two ways to get UHD @ 60 Hz now on MAC are either buy a Mac PRO or a dedicated compatible GPU that is capable of doing that - that said - it might work attaching such a GPU in a TB casing if you happen to own a MAC without internal PCIe slots

http://sonnettech.com/product/echoexpress3d.html

Thanks! very good information! I did not know Mac does not support 2x HDMI output, any particular reason why it can't? can I use one mDP (or thunderbolt) to HDMI adapter and another one from on board HDMI port so I can have 2x HDMIs outputs to the 4K monitor @ 60Hz....

Again, thanks!

@W

oh you could of course use an adapter from mDP to HDMI and the built in HDMI port (if present) but the HDMI port is limited to 1920x180 at 60 Hz and at the mDP you're limited on most MACs at 2560x1600 at 60 Hz but you would need 2 x 1920x2160 or 3840x1080 at 60 Hz which is not supported bei all of the MACs with HDMI and mDP except the recent rMBP and MP. these machines are capable of 3840x2160 at 30 Hz over HDMI and the MP is capable of up to 2 x 4096x2160 at 60 Hz over mDP

If you want to have UHD or 4k at 60 Hz on a MAC you're probably gonna have to invest in either:

1.) A new Mac PRO

2.) A new graphic card for your Mac Pro prior to late 2013

3.) A Thunderbolt PCIe Thunderbolt casing and a new graphic card plus a Thunderbolt cable for your Thunderbolt equipped MAC

Or you'll have to wait for an iMAC that supports it and/or the next generation Mac Book PROs which might support HDMI 2.0 and UHD or 4k over mDP - this is likely to happen end of this year.

BTW - I doubt that there are UHD monitors out that would work flawlessly with to HDMI input signals synchronous but some of them support split screen functionality - that might work at some point - but I doubt it would satisfy most of the users - give it a try and report on the effect - I am rather sure the HDMI port will not support > Full HD resolutions at 60 Hz and you should double check the capabilities of the GPU in your MAC - if it's intel HD 4000 you're probably gonna fail and if it#s a dedicated GPU in a 15 inch rMBP it might be with a try but I am not sure it would work - I have strong doubts here

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williamio
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to joger, 7 months ago

joger wrote:

oh you could of course use an adapter from mDP to HDMI and the built in HDMI port (if present) but the HDMI port is limited to 1920x180 at 60 Hz and at the mDP you're limited on most MACs at 2560x1600 at 60 Hz but you would need 2 x 1920x2160 or 3840x1080 at 60 Hz which is not supported bei all of the MACs with HDMI and mDP except the recent rMBP and MP. these machines are capable of 3840x2160 at 30 Hz over HDMI and the MP is capable of up to 2 x 4096x2160 at 60 Hz over mDP

If you want to have UHD or 4k at 60 Hz on a MAC you're probably gonna have to invest in either:

1.) A new Mac PRO

2.) A new graphic card for your Mac Pro prior to late 2013

3.) A Thunderbolt PCIe Thunderbolt casing and a new graphic card plus a Thunderbolt cable for your Thunderbolt equipped MAC

Or you'll have to wait for an iMAC that supports it and/or the next generation Mac Book PROs which might support HDMI 2.0 and UHD or 4k over mDP - this is likely to happen end of this year.

BTW - I doubt that there are UHD monitors out that would work flawlessly with to HDMI input signals synchronous but some of them support split screen functionality - that might work at some point - but I doubt it would satisfy most of the users - give it a try and report on the effect - I am rather sure the HDMI port will not support > Full HD resolutions at 60 Hz and you should double check the capabilities of the GPU in your MAC - if it's intel HD 4000 you're probably gonna fail and if it#s a dedicated GPU in a 15 inch rMBP it might be with a try but I am not sure it would work - I have strong doubts here

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Sir, are you working in some big A company very knowledgable. Not just for the monitor but also for the Mac OSX system

As far as the graphic card in Thunderbolt case, I don't think that would work. I know for sure Apple does not allow any graphic card installed in Thunderbolt case: could be the software driver issue or could be hardware thing.

@W

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joger
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OS 10.9.3 brings UHD, 4k and beyond support
In reply to joger, 5 months ago

http://www.macrumors.com/2014/03/07/os-x-10-9-3-retina-option-4k-displays/

good news - >UHD support will be added before I finally get my Mac Pro :-/

(still waiting for my MP late 2013 to arrive)

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joger
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Re: OS 10.9.3 brings UHD, 4k and beyond support
In reply to joger, 5 months ago

and LG brings a nice IPS panel high res display for 1 k USD too

http://www.lg.com/de/monitore/lg-34UM95/technical-specifications

  • 2 x thunderbolt
  • Mac PRO compatible
  • 35 inch 21:9
  • 1440 x 3440 pixel
  • 10 bit / color support
  • DP, mDP, TB, USB 3.0
  • 34 inch
  • AH-IPS technology
  • 2 x 7 W speaker built in
  • < 80 W power consumption
  • (same display height as the 27 " Apple Cinema Display but wider)
  • 1:1000 static contrast
  • no word so far about color gamut but pre calibrated from LG

LG 34MU95

it's getting more and more attractive - maybe I should wait until end of summer for the most important offerings - could be that Apple decides to bring a 5120x2880 pixel Cinema Display - would be a nice thing.

outline Apple Cinema Display vs LG 34MU95

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MirekE
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to elliotn, 5 months ago

elliotn wrote:

No. I shoot raw with a D800, and of course it can capture colours outside the sRGB gamut - saturated sunsets, neon fashions, psychedelic candy.

The AdobeRGB difference is mostly in greens and I found that green trees are often out of sRGB gamut.

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MarshallG
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Re: OS 10.9.3 brings UHD, 4k and beyond support
In reply to joger, 5 months ago

joger wrote:

and LG brings a nice IPS panel high res display for 1 k USD too

http://www.lg.com/de/monitore/lg-34UM95/technical-specifications

  • 2 x thunderbolt
  • Mac PRO compatible
  • 35 inch 21:9
  • 1440 x 3440 pixel
  • 10 bit / color support
  • DP, mDP, TB, USB 3.0
  • 34 inch
  • AH-IPS technology
  • 2 x 7 W speaker built in
  • < 80 W power consumption
  • (same display height as the 27 " Apple Cinema Display but wider)
  • 1:1000 static contrast
  • no word so far about color gamut but pre calibrated from LG

LG 34MU95

Just curious -- would you buy such a large display? It seems that it would be difficult to move my head to-and-fro with such a huge screen. I guess if you're using Lightroom or another specific app and you set it up "just so," then maybe it's fantastic.

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bronxbombers4
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Re: extremely affordable 4k (aka UHD) 28" displays coming as companion to your MP or rMBP
In reply to joger, 5 months ago

joger wrote:

cs that support 4k (aka UHD):
  • Mac PRO late 2013 at 60 Hz and 10 bit per RGB color via DP and 30 Hz via HDMI
  • retina Mac Book Pro 13 and 15 inch late 2013 at 30 Hz on mDP and HDMI

The TN panels are a bit of a caveat for quality fetishists not offering the utmost image quality like IPS or IGOZ and a rather small color space of sRGB equivalent.

Not sure TN panels are such a good thing if photography is the main use. Maybe TN panels are better now, but a friend had one and the viewing angles were brutal and the colors never looked good even straight on.

Also you can get more than the Macs listed above to drive UHD. I have my 2012 Mac Mini driving my IPS wide gamut UHD Dell UP2414Q over mDP at 3140x2160x30p and it's awesome. Got the Dell UP2414Q for $1000 during a sale.

Some personal remarks:

That said at the given price point I am personally willing to buy an intermediate 4k display and sell it as soon as an affordable wide gamut 4k display appears.

For 799.- USD list price and a possible strew price of maybe 700 USD and equivalent 800 EUR (remember the tax in Europe) it is IMHO a no-brainier if you happen to have a MAC PRO.

The first reviewers stated that the image quality of the Lenovo is stunning. 28 inch seems to be just the right size being able to roughly match at a normal viewing distance the resolution of the human eye. The TN panels are optimized and the viewing angle seems to be larger then previous generations. 10 bit support is great for calibration purposes preventing from posterization effects.

The GPUs in the new Mac PRO support 10 bit / RGB color (differing from the consumer gaming GPUs that are often compared as similar) and I would not wonder if the OS 10.9.x will support 30 bit soon or in Summer 2014 maybe 10.10 will fully support it - my guess is it will be included in one of the next OS maintenance releases.

I am looking forward to the first in depth reviews and I hope I will get my new Mac PRO together with a 4k display - and who knows - maybe Apple is doing a nice 28 inch Cinema Display as well?

Let me know your thoughts

Maybe these new TN are better. I thought some early reviewers were slamming some of these for pic quality, but then you point to some that praise them. Not sure what to say.

UHD is pretty awesome though.

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bronxbombers4
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Re: OS 10.9.3 brings UHD, 4k and beyond support
In reply to joger, 5 months ago

joger wrote:

http://www.macrumors.com/2014/03/07/os-x-10-9-3-retina-option-4k-displays/

good news - >UHD support will be added before I finally get my Mac Pro :-/

(still waiting for my MP late 2013 to arrive)

I wonder if that can be hacked to allow the older Macs to run UHD off Mavericks too? For now for the older Macs you need to run an OS hack to unlock the graphics restriction and then you run another program to unlock the HiDPI retina scaling. I have perfect scaling (normal sized text and icons) at UHD with my Mac Mini right now under OS 10.8.

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bronxbombers4
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tough call
In reply to user_name, 5 months ago

user_name wrote:

If the color spectrum is not wide gamut, all the pixels in the world will not reveal what is in your raw files and your post processing will never be correct.

Tough call. Which is why I went for both :).

Not having enough pixels means you don't really see any of textures that your photo is made up of and the large pixels make it look fake, UHD makes it look a bit more like looking at something in real life or a decent print.

Of course not having wide gamut does mean that you can never quite properly show many sunsets, flowers, bright cloths and cars, fall foliage and so on.

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bronxbombers4
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Re: Wide - Gamut trumps resolution for Photography.
In reply to joger, 5 months ago

joger wrote:

user_name wrote:

If the color spectrum is not wide gamut, all the pixels in the world will not reveal what is in your raw files and your post processing will never be correct.

fully agree - you need a wide gamut display to do that and not a single Apple display is currently a wide gamut display!!

As a photographer the target should always be to have a display that has as least as much color gamut as all the other devices you're syncing up with. Then proofing is possible and you actually see what you're doing and you can judge your workflow.

The before mentioned UHD displays are more or less all sRGB color gamut with two exceptions - the 31,5 inch Samsung and LG are wide gamut IPS panels and they probably cost far north of 3 k USD (±)

BUT 800 USD for a 10 bit UHD display with sRGB is surely better then 1 k USD for an Apple 27" Cinema Display with sRGB and only 2560x1440 Pixel

Why not for now go with a 24" for $1000? Then you can get UHD and wide gamut and uniformity compensation and internal calibration. I'd way rather that for now than hold over with one of those cheap 28" UHD displays.

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joger
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Re: Wide - Gamut trumps resolution for Photography.
In reply to bronxbombers4, 5 months ago

bronxbombers4 wrote:

joger wrote:

user_name wrote:

If the color spectrum is not wide gamut, all the pixels in the world will not reveal what is in your raw files and your post processing will never be correct.

fully agree - you need a wide gamut display to do that and not a single Apple display is currently a wide gamut display!!

As a photographer the target should always be to have a display that has as least as much color gamut as all the other devices you're syncing up with. Then proofing is possible and you actually see what you're doing and you can judge your workflow.

The before mentioned UHD displays are more or less all sRGB color gamut with two exceptions - the 31,5 inch Samsung and LG are wide gamut IPS panels and they probably cost far north of 3 k USD (±)

BUT 800 USD for a 10 bit UHD display with sRGB is surely better then 1 k USD for an Apple 27" Cinema Display with sRGB and only 2560x1440 Pixel

Why not for now go with a 24" for $1000? Then you can get UHD and wide gamut and uniformity compensation and internal calibration. I'd way rather that for now than hold over with one of those cheap 28" UHD displays.

1st of all - none of the cheap UHD 60 Hz displays is really available. I definitely exclude the 28" DELL since UHD at 30 Hz is a no go for me for the main monitor.

2ndly - I get more and more convinced that Apple might bing it's own solution. I hate saying that but sometimes it's better to wait a bit - especially in this case since the technology seems to be in a  very early stage. So I reconfigured my budget and prioritized other "toys" and put the > UHD resolving monitor in October time frame.

Softwre and hardware will be ready - who knows - maybe Apple really brings a curved Retina 30 inch Cinema Display - that would be really nice.

I am just thrilled by the idea to have a really sharp display instead of my iMac like 27 inch low res display. Exciting times!!

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joger
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Re: OS 10.9.3 brings UHD, 4k and beyond support
In reply to MarshallG, 5 months ago

MarshallG wrote:

Just curious -- would you buy such a large display? It seems that it would be difficult to move my head to-and-fro with such a huge screen. I guess if you're using Lightroom or another specific app and you set it up "just so," then maybe it's fantastic.

well - sometimes it helps to sketch it in CAD to make a sanity check

34 inch LG display vs 2 x 21.5" display setup - used by many users

A 2 x 20-22 inch setup is very common if you follow some threads here.

While I've never been a huge fan of such a setup, many claim that this can be a perfect setup for LightRoom and some video tools. The new 34 inch display from LG is somehow dwarfed by the 2 monitor setup used by some.

Would I buy it? Well - it heavily depends on the choices I have in October time frame.

I am unhappy with my 27 inch Cinema Display. Color gamut, resolution and sie are not perfectly for what I like to use the display. I'd opt for 28-32 inch if I could vote

Till now the limiting factor was always the capability of the GPU to support that many pixels fluently. With the new MP it is a different story though (speaking of Apple computers).

So yes - I might be tempted to buy one in October but I might be tempted to buy a different device if an other vendor brings out something more "amazing"

The more pixels - the more I am thrilled - the more color gamut the better and if nice speakers and microphone and a camera are built in - even better!

The fewer cables and devices the better it is - I have now only one external device for my MP except the monitor - it is a Promise Pegasus J4 Raid 0 on my desk and that's all I have to connect via cables right now beside a monitor. I'd like to keep it that way. So the LG is not fully meeting my wish list - but  it's quite near with IPS and built in speakers and a nice resolution allowing more real estate on the desktop.

Yet we are not at the end of the story - exciting times for new monitors and if you look to the past you'll find that the LED Cinema Display from Apple in 2010 was not that bad in comparison with the competition back then - it is just dated now since the rest of the market has evolved (which is a very good thing for all of us)

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isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top
ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein
if you start to fight with a pig you'll end up mud-wrestling - the only difference is the pig will like it

 joger's gear list:joger's gear list
Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Canon TS-E 90mm f/2.8 Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II USM Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM +10 more
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