The new ZS40 v LF1?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
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Re: 3.3 versus 2.0 and larger sensor? Good light only I guess
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

joel artino wrote:

Greynerd wrote:

It is difficult to see how a 720mm equiv shining on the 18mp crammed on to a 1/2.3" sensor is going to blow anything away least of all a recent more sensibly configured 12mp on a 1/1.7"sensor camera. The sensor may have improved though and seeing the Raw coming off such a small densely populated sensor will be interesting.

The ZS35 sounds the more sensible option.

joel artino wrote:

bohdanz wrote:

I know none of us has yet had a chance to shoot with or handle the new ZS40.

I wonder how it compares to the LF1.

Heading on vacation next month and had been contemplating the LF1 to go with my G6....

but now the ZS40 seems on equal footing (or have I missed something).

Thanks

Bohdan

As the ZS40 will have an EVF and a 24 - 720mm lens, it will blow the LF1 away, IMHO, if its IQ is equal to or greater than the current ZS19 - ZS30 series cameras' IQs.

Let's hope so.

Joel

Greynerd,

Sometimes specs are just specs with no significant difference in real world usage. Several photographers on this site have produced images using ZS series cameras that easily equal or exceed anything i have seen coming out of an LF1 camera. The proof is in the output, not rhetoric or specs.

Let's wait until we see images produced before drawing any conclusions as to what these new cameras are capable of.

Joel

In good light image quality may be very close in the LF1 zoom ranges. But your indoor shots will all need flash or a very still subject. I am sure the ZS40 will be fine for some, but it will never match the LF1 in low light at 28mm and the LF1 will have a slight advantage on higher ISO's needed when zoomed. The reality most photo beyond the range of the LF1 are going to be mediocre at best.

-- hide signature --

Your statement was "The reality most photos beyond the range of the LF1 are going to be mediocre at best." I really can't see why anyone would make this kind of a statement before the camera is even tested. There are many examples on this board alone of beyond 200mm images from ZS cameras that are far above mediocre. And I've still never seen many, if any images at any focal length from an LF1 that are better than ZS images at the same focal length either when viewed on a large, quality monitor or printed up to at least 8X10, if not larger.

It's not like one camera has an APS size sensor vs the small sensor of the other camera, they are both in the same small range.

I believe too many people here have "sensor envy", lol!

Let's wait until the camera is available before we bury it.

Joel

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Erik Ohlson
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Re: 3.3 versus 2.0 and larger sensor? Good light only I guess
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

joel artino wrote:

Greynerd wrote:

It is difficult to see how a 720mm equiv shining on the 18mp crammed on to a 1/2.3" sensor is going to blow anything away least of all a recent more sensibly configured 12mp on a 1/1.7"sensor camera. The sensor may have improved though and seeing the Raw coming off such a small densely populated sensor will be interesting.

The ZS35 sounds the more sensible option.

joel artino wrote:

bohdanz wrote:

I know none of us has yet had a chance to shoot with or handle the new ZS40.

I wonder how it compares to the LF1.

Heading on vacation next month and had been contemplating the LF1 to go with my G6....

but now the ZS40 seems on equal footing (or have I missed something).

Thanks

Bohdan

As the ZS40 will have an EVF and a 24 - 720mm lens, it will blow the LF1 away, IMHO, if its IQ is equal to or greater than the current ZS19 - ZS30 series cameras' IQs.

Let's hope so.

Joel

Greynerd,

Sometimes specs are just specs with no significant difference in real world usage. Several photographers on this site have produced images using ZS series cameras that easily equal or exceed anything i have seen coming out of an LF1 camera. The proof is in the output, not rhetoric or specs.

Let's wait until we see images produced before drawing any conclusions as to what these new cameras are capable of.

Joel

In good light image quality may be very close in the LF1 zoom ranges. But your indoor shots will all need flash or a very still subject. I am sure the ZS40 will be fine for some, but it will never match the LF1 in low light at 28mm and the LF1 will have a slight advantage on higher ISO's needed when zoomed. The reality most photo beyond the range of the LF1 are going to be mediocre at best.

-- hide signature --

Well, not so fast, there - - I haven't seen any significantly better IQ from LF1 shots posted online than my ZS25 can produce - and the Canon S-100 with a 1.7 sensor is actually lower in IQ than the ZS25.

The LF1 is simply left at the starting gate compared to the ZS25 - I wasn't personally even tempted.

There's a lot of "opinion" in assessing IQ but since I have traveled extensively with just a ZS19 until I broke the lens, and now have an equally good ZS25, for MY purposes, the ZS40 may well be a giant leap forward for the following reasons:

-EVF

-Slightly larger sensor, not that this is necessarily a game changing difference.

-Still has PASM

-Manual focus (not that a person can focus more accurately than the camera), but now locking focus for Panoramas and close-ups or the sacred "low light" picture will be worlds easier.

-Level gauge

-920,000 dot screen with NO  #$%^&*  TOUCH FUNCTION !!

Even more "Recording Telescope" Zoom !

And all that with only a tiny increase in size - if the EVF is good enough you won't have to hear me pointing out the advantages of the Clearviewer - but the tripod socket is still in the center so I can use mine without having to get another to fit the offset socket of, say, the Lumix LX7.

Honest, Panasonic never asked me, but somehow they pretty well answered my wish list.

The "Pocketlint" review wanted a touch screen, but IMHO, that would have been a negative, unless it could have been shut off altogether.

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PC Wheeler
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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to bohdanz, 8 months ago

ZS40.

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Phil

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phazelag
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In reply to Erik Ohlson, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

joel artino wrote:

Greynerd wrote:

It is difficult to see how a 720mm equiv shining on the 18mp crammed on to a 1/2.3" sensor is going to blow anything away least of all a recent more sensibly configured 12mp on a 1/1.7"sensor camera. The sensor may have improved though and seeing the Raw coming off such a small densely populated sensor will be interesting.

The ZS35 sounds the more sensible option.

joel artino wrote:

bohdanz wrote:

I know none of us has yet had a chance to shoot with or handle the new ZS40.

I wonder how it compares to the LF1.

Heading on vacation next month and had been contemplating the LF1 to go with my G6....

but now the ZS40 seems on equal footing (or have I missed something).

Thanks

Bohdan

As the ZS40 will have an EVF and a 24 - 720mm lens, it will blow the LF1 away, IMHO, if its IQ is equal to or greater than the current ZS19 - ZS30 series cameras' IQs.

Let's hope so.

Joel

Greynerd,

Sometimes specs are just specs with no significant difference in real world usage. Several photographers on this site have produced images using ZS series cameras that easily equal or exceed anything i have seen coming out of an LF1 camera. The proof is in the output, not rhetoric or specs.

Let's wait until we see images produced before drawing any conclusions as to what these new cameras are capable of.

Joel

In good light image quality may be very close in the LF1 zoom ranges. But your indoor shots will all need flash or a very still subject. I am sure the ZS40 will be fine for some, but it will never match the LF1 in low light at 28mm and the LF1 will have a slight advantage on higher ISO's needed when zoomed. The reality most photo beyond the range of the LF1 are going to be mediocre at best.

-- hide signature --

Well, not so fast, there - - I haven't seen any significantly better IQ from LF1 shots posted online than my ZS25 can produce - and the Canon S-100 with a 1.7 sensor is actually lower in IQ than the ZS25.

The LF1 is simply left at the starting gate compared to the ZS25 - I wasn't personally even tempted.

There's a lot of "opinion" in assessing IQ but since I have traveled extensively with just a ZS19 until I broke the lens, and now have an equally good ZS25, for MY purposes, the ZS40 may well be a giant leap forward for the following reasons:

-EVF

-Slightly larger sensor, not that this is necessarily a game changing difference.

-Still has PASM

-Manual focus (not that a person can focus more accurately than the camera), but now locking focus for Panoramas and close-ups or the sacred "low light" picture will be worlds easier.

-Level gauge

-920,000 dot screen with NO  #$%^&*  TOUCH FUNCTION !!

Even more "Recording Telescope" Zoom !

And all that with only a tiny increase in size - if the EVF is good enough you won't have to hear me pointing out the advantages of the Clearviewer - but the tripod socket is still in the center so I can use mine without having to get another to fit the offset socket of, say, the Lumix LX7.

Honest, Panasonic never asked me, but somehow they pretty well answered my wish list.

The "Pocketlint" review wanted a touch screen, but IMHO, that would have been a negative, unless it could have been shut off altogether.

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I did make a blanket statement without using the camera. I think I made the statement considering that I see lots of people buy a camera for zoom over what they will actually use it for. I saw statements about zoom and if it was an fz200 I would agree, but the reality is most people who buy it wont use the zoom that far very often and if they do, the images will suffer in anything but good light. I think most people would actually make more quality photos with an LF1 but zoom and megapixels are sexier than aperture or sensor size.

But I do realize most people on here are probably more educated on this subject than the average consumer.
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phazelag
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In reply to joel artino, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

joel artino wrote:

Greynerd wrote:

It is difficult to see how a 720mm equiv shining on the 18mp crammed on to a 1/2.3" sensor is going to blow anything away least of all a recent more sensibly configured 12mp on a 1/1.7"sensor camera. The sensor may have improved though and seeing the Raw coming off such a small densely populated sensor will be interesting.

The ZS35 sounds the more sensible option.

joel artino wrote:

bohdanz wrote:

I know none of us has yet had a chance to shoot with or handle the new ZS40.

I wonder how it compares to the LF1.

Heading on vacation next month and had been contemplating the LF1 to go with my G6....

but now the ZS40 seems on equal footing (or have I missed something).

Thanks

Bohdan

As the ZS40 will have an EVF and a 24 - 720mm lens, it will blow the LF1 away, IMHO, if its IQ is equal to or greater than the current ZS19 - ZS30 series cameras' IQs.

Let's hope so.

Joel

Greynerd,

Sometimes specs are just specs with no significant difference in real world usage. Several photographers on this site have produced images using ZS series cameras that easily equal or exceed anything i have seen coming out of an LF1 camera. The proof is in the output, not rhetoric or specs.

Let's wait until we see images produced before drawing any conclusions as to what these new cameras are capable of.

Joel

In good light image quality may be very close in the LF1 zoom ranges. But your indoor shots will all need flash or a very still subject. I am sure the ZS40 will be fine for some, but it will never match the LF1 in low light at 28mm and the LF1 will have a slight advantage on higher ISO's needed when zoomed. The reality most photo beyond the range of the LF1 are going to be mediocre at best.

-- hide signature --

Your statement was "The reality most photos beyond the range of the LF1 are going to be mediocre at best." I really can't see why anyone would make this kind of a statement before the camera is even tested. There are many examples on this board alone of beyond 200mm images from ZS cameras that are far above mediocre. And I've still never seen many, if any images at any focal length from an LF1 that are better than ZS images at the same focal length either when viewed on a large, quality monitor or printed up to at least 8X10, if not larger.

It's not like one camera has an APS size sensor vs the small sensor of the other camera, they are both in the same small range.

I believe too many people here have "sensor envy", lol!

Let's wait until the camera is available before we bury it.

Joel

My statement was too blanket. But it seemed like some blanket statements were being made about the LF1 without considering where most photos are likely to be taken. But i should not have stoked the fire. But I truly believe if the price is the same I would tell me loved ones to get the LF1 as it will be superior most of the time with exception of a need for sunny day zoom.
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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to PC Wheeler, 8 months ago

ZS40.

-- hide signature --

Phil

PC,

Why? I know you must considering your best use. And we all are different, but would you really trade a faster wide aperture and larger sensor for more zoom and megapixels?
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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to joel artino, 8 months ago

joel artino wrote:

bohdanz wrote:

I know none of us has yet had a chance to shoot with or handle the new ZS40.

I wonder how it compares to the LF1.

Heading on vacation next month and had been contemplating the LF1 to go with my G6....

but now the ZS40 seems on equal footing (or have I missed something).

Thanks

Bohdan

As the ZS40 will have an EVF and a 24 - 720mm lens, it will blow the LF1 away, IMHO, if its IQ is equal to or greater than the current ZS19 - ZS30 series cameras' IQs.

Let's hope so.

Joel

Hmmm is this some kind of delusion? How can a tiny 1/2.3 sensor beat 1/1.7 sensor with brighter lens to boot? I guess if you compare detail of a distant subject using long end zoom of both camera. Optical zoom will win for sure but at similar focal length and even more at mid-to-high ISO, LF1 will win hands down.

-=[ Joms ]=-

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phazelag
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Lets see the photos
In reply to bohdanz, 8 months ago

I would like to see a variety ZS Photos in these conditions and compare them.  I am guessing the ZS would win the Sunny day bird shots, but that about it.

http://www.scottzinda.com/Point-and-Shoot-Cameras/Panasonic-LF1-test-shots---

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Erik Ohlson
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Re: True
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

I did make a blanket statement without using the camera. I think I made the statement considering that I see lots of people buy a camera for zoom over what they will actually use it for. I saw statements about zoom and if it was an fz200 I would agree, but the reality is most people who buy it wont use the zoom that far very often and if they do, the images will suffer in anything but good light. I think most people would actually make more quality photos with an LF1 but zoom and megapixels are sexier than aperture or sensor size.

But I do realize most people on here are probably more educated on this subject than the average consumer.
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True, indeed, thanks.

I have to say that I still have noticed no IQ advantage with the LF1 over my ZS19 & ZS25 - nor have I noticed any real advantage with the LX7 or Canon S-100 which is essentially a dead-ringer with the LF1 as far as specs go. On the contrary, my ZS25 beats the S-100 handily.

I bought both an LX7 & a Canon S-100 just out of curiosity - neither showed me any particular advantage, so I got rid of them - I do occasionally borrow a daughter's S-100 just to keep up to date.  

My other daughter, the Australian one, traded her GF1 for an FZ200.

I hear that so often - the assumption that the longer focal lengths are not used much.

Could be - but I DO use them, a lot, as my "Recording Telescope" - I used to carry a monocular, but no longer do: something distant? I take a shot of it & then zoom in on the max zoom image in playback. Walking my dog, I see movement 1/2 mile or more away and want to assess what I'll be meeting - do I need to leash my dog or not? What sort of bird is that? It's nice to see a moving dot, photograph it and be able to say "Oh, it's Mike & Sue, haven't seen them in a while!"

I also use my camera asa "Pocket Copier" - the best score of that use was a long-winded advertisement which I grabbed & which led to me, my wife, sister and one daughter flying to Tahiti & sailing to Pitcairn Island - seeing a total solar eclipse - spending 2 days on Easter Island and two weeks in Peru. I really like the versatility of having a capable camera on hand, 24/7/365.

In both taking and viewing, I rely a lot on my Clearviewer & wonder how the EVF compares.

Many don't use a camera as I do, and that's fine, I applaud whatever way one approaches photography, except the pretentious, a rare commodity on this forum.  

I'm kind of excited at the prospect of the ZS40  

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Re: True
In reply to Erik Ohlson, 8 months ago

i just ordered an LF1 and expect to really enjoy it.  that being said, when i had my FZ150, i shot at the far end of the zoom - it wasn't a rare occasion - and got some pics i'm still quite happy with.  i find it odd that anyone would assume one rarely shoots far away subjects.

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Lumixdude
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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

Trinkets, trinkets and more trinkets, it's a travel zoom camera with a pinhole sized sensor. The IQ will suck compared to the LX7/LF1...

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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to jcmarfilph, 8 months ago

jcmarfilph wrote:

joel artino wrote:

bohdanz wrote:

I know none of us has yet had a chance to shoot with or handle the new ZS40.

I wonder how it compares to the LF1.

Heading on vacation next month and had been contemplating the LF1 to go with my G6....

but now the ZS40 seems on equal footing (or have I missed something).

Thanks

Bohdan

As the ZS40 will have an EVF and a 24 - 720mm lens, it will blow the LF1 away, IMHO, if its IQ is equal to or greater than the current ZS19 - ZS30 series cameras' IQs.

Let's hope so.

Joel

Hmmm is this some kind of delusion? How can a tiny 1/2.3 sensor beat 1/1.7 sensor with brighter lens to boot? I guess if you compare detail of a distant subject using long end zoom of both camera. Optical zoom will win for sure but at similar focal length and even more at mid-to-high ISO, LF1 will win hands down.

-=[ Joms ]=-

People believe what they want to believe.

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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to Dan W, 8 months ago

The one thing that counts is that the ZS40 has a sensor the size of a pinhole. There's only one way you match an LX7/LF1 sensor and that's by buying a camera with a similar sized sensor such as the Olympus Stylus 1 and then its a non-contest given the size/weight difference in order to have Zoom and a decent sized sensor. You also pay twice the price....

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phazelag
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In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

I would like to see a variety ZS Photos in these conditions and compare them. I am guessing the ZS would win the Sunny day bird shots, but that about it.

http://www.scottzinda.com/Point-and-Shoot-Cameras/Panasonic-LF1-test-shots-

www.scottzinda.com

http://instagram.com/phazelag

For some reason DPreview is messing my links up today.

http://www.scottzinda.com/Point-and-Shoot-Cameras/Panasonic-LF1-test-shots-

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cainn24
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Re: True
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

I saw statements about zoom and if it was an fz200 I would agree, but the reality is most people who buy it wont use the zoom that far very often and if they do, the images will suffer in anything but good light.

The images might not suffer as much as you think given that the ZS40 uses Panasonic's new "Hybrid O.I.S+" 5-axis image stabilizer.  The LF1 and even the LX7/FZ200/FZ70 have the older (but still very effective) Power O.I.S.

It's mostly marketed as a video feature for some reason, but you don't put 5-axis stabilization in a camera and not enable it for stills shooting, unless what you're really doing is telling marketing lies.

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Lumixdude
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Re: True
In reply to cainn24, 8 months ago

Image stabilisation means less shake blurring it doesn't fix the fact that the sensor is still tiny. I've never had any shake blur anyway with my LX7 unless I'm shooting in the dark at which point it's irrelevant. With the tiny sensor in this camera you still wont be able to shoot at night.

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cainn24
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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

The one thing that counts is that the ZS40 has a sensor the size of a pinhole. There's only one way you match an LX7/LF1 sensor and that's by buying a camera with a similar sized sensor

The LX7/LF1 has a sensor the size of a slightly bigger pinhole. That's all.

That's why we saw 1/2.3" sensors with backside illumination match some of the more standard 1/1.7" sensors when they first appeared. We're essentially in the same ballpark, which is why factors other than size can balance the equation.

My guess though given that the ZS40 almost certainly uses the same sensor as the ZS30, and having compared that with the LF1 on imaging-resource, is that after correcting for the resolution difference the LF1 will be about half a stop ahead at most in terms of pure sensor performance.  So really, it ends up being all about the lens in my book.

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cainn24
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Re: True
In reply to Lumixdude, 8 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Image stabilisation means less shake blurring it doesn't fix the fact that the sensor is still tiny. I've never had any shake blur anyway with my LX7 unless I'm shooting in the dark at which point it's irrelevant.

Image stabilization is supremely relevant when long reach is involved.

With the tiny sensor in this camera you still wont be able to shoot at night.

It's a travelzoom, not an LX7. They are different cameras designed for different purposes. Talking about its low-light capabilities is like talking about the LX7s performance beyond a 90mm EFL. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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PeteGeordie
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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to cainn24, 8 months ago

cainn24 wrote:

The LX7/LF1 has a sensor the size of a slightly bigger pinhole. That's all.

1/1.7 has 50% greater area than 1/2.3 so hardly "slightly bigger"

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Lumixdude
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Re: The new ZS40 v LF1?
In reply to cainn24, 8 months ago

I guess if they can create some sort of magical lens it might be competitive, but it isn't just slightly bigger its bigger by a substantial amount despite still being a pin hole. The differences are notable and have been so. The sensor in the LX7 is competitive with 1" sensors found in cameras with 1" sensors such as the RX100.

On the other side of things, to create a lens with that amount of zoom requires quite a few pieces of glass and a whole lot of correction which is why the LX7 in particular has a shorter zoom to get the most out of its optics.

A super zoom lens has to do the job of a standard lens of 22-100 like the LX7 and then it also has to do zoom somewhere in the order of 100-300 and above which will always be a compromise.

You just need to look at the issues going on when you attach a super zoom lens to an SLR body vs. having two lenses at 18-55, and 55-250 for example to see the problem first hand. It's always best having a lens that does one job as opposed to trying to bend your optics so that you have a lens that does the job of two lenses.

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