Please help me to stay with Pentax!

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
JimBim
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to kikivrany, 6 months ago

kikivrany wrote:

Hello JimBim

Hands down, the K5 picture looks not so good...but I wouldn not upset myself with a bad JPEG.

Look at the histograms: -> the K3 did overexposed !

also the left part of the histogram is wrong -> the black is not really black and the hole picture get a little 'flair'

the other cameras did not overexposed the scene where it's very important -> her face

I try to correct this:

Your original

and a exposure +colour correction:

ok it's useless to try to correct the WB on a JPEG picture...but I think it's still better than the original .

So...all in all... I would not compare the cameras with such pictures...you get the wrong impression.

best regards kikivrany

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carpe noctem

Than you kikivrany. You did nice job.

I'm shooting in RAW nearly every time with my K20 and istDL and process it in LR. In this case my aim was to see how jpg comes directly from camera without my intervention.

Audrius

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SBS
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

JimBim wrote:

Than you kikivrany. You did nice job.

I'm shooting in RAW nearly every time with my K20 and istDL and process it in LR. In this case my aim was to see how jpg comes directly from camera without my intervention.

Audrius

Is this because you want to start shooting in jpeg? Since I always shoot in raw, I never give a camera's jpeg output a second thought. But as pointed out in this thread, the K3 shot is a little over exposed, and probably on the bright setting – two very simple adjustments. Why don't you go back and try your test again with those adjustments? I for one would enjoy seeing the results of Take 2.

As also pointed out, the test criteria favors FF cameras. If this is your typical shooting situation (inside @ ISO 1600+), then a FF may be your best choice. But I would also take a look at the K5II(s). And the most intelligent way to answer your question, since money does not seem to be an object, is to rent the cameras for a week (try Lensrental.com) and give them a thorough testing.

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JimBim
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to SBS, 6 months ago

SBS wrote:

JimBim wrote:

Than you kikivrany. You did nice job.

I'm shooting in RAW nearly every time with my K20 and istDL and process it in LR. In this case my aim was to see how jpg comes directly from camera without my intervention.

Audrius

Is this because you want to start shooting in jpeg? Since I always shoot in raw, I never give a camera's jpeg output a second thought. But as pointed out in this thread, the K3 shot is a little over exposed, and probably on the bright setting – two very simple adjustments. Why don't you go back and try your test again with those adjustments? I for one would enjoy seeing the results of Take 2.

As also pointed out, the test criteria favors FF cameras. If this is your typical shooting situation (inside @ ISO 1600+), then a FF may be your best choice. But I would also take a look at the K5II(s). And the most intelligent way to answer your question, since money does not seem to be an object, is to rent the cameras for a week (try Lensrental.com) and give them a thorough testing.

Thank you SBS for the answer!

In my case I'm doing a lot of shooting at dog shows. I'm running a website for dogs. At one dog show I'm doing 100 and more shoots. I have to upload all pictures to my website as soon as possible and have no time to work with PP. This is the reason why jpg directly from a camera are so important for me. For other shooting I'm happy with my K20.

Audrius

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newmikey
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In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

If you are comparing OOC shots from inside a camera store with zero knowledge of how the settings in the different camerabodies were tweaked by customers and/or other clients before you came in, you are asking the wrong question based on the wrong data at the wrong time. Quite frankly, I doubt whether you are capable of making a solid decision so go for whatever looks good on you!

Besides that, I couldn't care a horse's behind whether or not you or anyone else stays with Pentax, not even whether I myself will. A camera is a tool and as long as it does what I want/need it'll be my tool.

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david tittermary
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

JimBim wrote:

kikivrany wrote:

Hello JimBim

Hands down, the K5 picture looks not so good...but I wouldn not upset myself with a bad JPEG.

Look at the histograms: -> the K3 did overexposed !

also the left part of the histogram is wrong -> the black is not really black and the hole picture get a little 'flair'

the other cameras did not overexposed the scene where it's very important -> her face

I try to correct this:

Your original

and a exposure +colour correction:

ok it's useless to try to correct the WB on a JPEG picture...but I think it's still better than the original .

So...all in all... I would not compare the cameras with such pictures...you get the wrong impression.

best regards kikivrany

-- hide signature --

carpe noctem

Than you kikivrany. You did nice job.

I'm shooting in RAW nearly every time with my K20 and istDL and process it in LR. In this case my aim was to see how jpg comes directly from camera without my intervention.

Audrius

then buy a Fuji hands down best jpg camera there is no comparison  other rhen Olympus which is a close second

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bkpix
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to david tittermary, 6 months ago

A single frame in a camera store is a pretty meaningless test. If you're interested in changing systems, rent a 6D (or D610, or whatever) and a lens or two for a week and try it out on what you normally shoot.

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Jim in Hudson
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

JimBim wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Shoot RAW and learn how to WB properly, no camera can ever truly get WB perfect, many can come close in many situations but some fall short. I assure you even Nikon falls short. I never trust AWB to get it right, I expect it to come close most of the time but i know how to WB many scenarios either by choosing a neutral white/grey patch or by understanding what WB values are right for sunny, cloudy, shade, and such situations. So consider WB your next target to learn in photography, you'll be amazed at how much better photos will look with the WB set right.

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Mike from Canada
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Thank you Mike.

I look at this different. I do WB manually on my K20. Because this is an old stuff I'm forgiving. Today, when I have to pay my money I want to do my life easier. For me K3 looks like music instrument made from high end material, well built, but tuning must be done with everyone yourself. I can produce excellent pictures with my istDL in manual mode. And I do. But if I pay money, I expect something what would made my life easier: decent AWB, good jpg quality directly from camera, fast autofocus and so on. And there is not a big difference in price between K3 and 6D or D610.

Audrius

Nothing wrong with those expectations.  One thing to keep in mind is no camera will provide the fully desired output 100% of the time.  Since you only had the opportunity to do one shot, it's hard to make a conclusion.  For example, if you did three other very different shots you may have found the K-3 provided the best result on those.

As for shooting JPEG images of dogs, you shouldn't have any problem with a Pentax.  Either switch to Natural or lower saturation in Bright to -1 and avoid shooting any dogs that are of a very strong red color and you will be pleased.  

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starjedi
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

The equilvalent focus length for K3 is 75mm here. It is not surprising to find the difference in AWB and exposure comparing to D610 and 6D due to different field view and DOF. A more unbias comparision should be using 35mm in K3 vs 50mm in D610 and 6D if you are more concerning about those automatical stuffs.

Here is my thought: What bother you in the photos are in fact minor issues  (which comes from one "biased" test). K3/D610/6D all are good cameras. In some situations/functionality, K3 will apparently win and in some situation, D610/6D will surely some advantage (eg: 2/3-1 stop better low light ISO sensitivity).  Anyway, you can have amazing pictures for either of the three cameras and will not be wrong to choose any of them.

Just my 2 cents

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flektogon
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

I think that if you plan to shoot a lot at high ISO, then the K-3 is not for you. The K-5(II/IIs) are a little bit better. But the same problem (i.e. the picture noise) very likely you will encounter at any FF camera having 36 Mp sensor. If you really want a (almost) noise-free camera, then look at the latest Nikon Df, which has only a 16 Mp sensor.

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James O'Neill
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

JimBim wrote:

James O'Neill wrote:

JimBim wrote:

I’m comming to conclusion to upgrade my gear. Since 1997 I’m with Pentax. This time I decided to look to other land, specifically C, N. I see by testing those cameras inside dealer shop, that pictures from D610 and 6D are better compare to K3. What is your oppinion - might be I’m doing something wrong? Or this is because C and N are FF. Might be lens? All shoots are at ISO1600, AWB, F2.8; lens 50mm F1.4. I cropped C and N pictures to fit Pentax sensor size. No PP, jpg output, hands held, luminescent lighting.

I know that some of you complemented Pentax system with N or C. Can you share your experience? I’m really trying to find arguments to stay with Pentax!

That's your comparison ? How much do you shoot at ISO 1600 ?

I have to say there's not much difference between the pictures, the Pentax looks to have its JPEG contrast set higher, and have the option to leave tungsten light slightly warm in AWB selected. My hunch is if you optimized the JPG settings they'd look even closer.

If you're weighing up which of 3 very capable cameras to buy, go for the one which feels best and most natural when you come to shoot with it. Suppose the Canon produces very slightly better images; I can't get on with Canon controls, so if I bought one it would stay on the shelf rather than go out shooting. The best camera is the one you go and shoot with . You also need to take into account the cost of changing lenses and accessories if you switch systems.

If you like using the Canon or Nikon more and the cost of changing systems isn't prohibitive, CHANGE. No one will hate you, no need to feel guilty. If you like using the Pentax more, stay. Don't expect other people to make your decision,

Sounds like if you are not praying for Pentax - go out! By the way, when I'm going for a trip I grab my istDL and I'm happy with output (in normal day light). But I'm doing a lot of shooting inside and have to use flash. These days ISO1600 is normal, I'm not talking about 3000 and above.

Not quite sure what you mean.  You are comparing 3 state of the art cameras, in a not very realistic test. Any of those cameras will take great pictures.

Don't stay with Pentax if you would be happier with another makers cameras in your hands - a miserable Pentax user is no use to anyone and it's not our job to persuade you to be one. Better that you go off and become a happy Nikon user in that case.

If you are happy  using Pentax, take a little time to get the JPG settings right, and then don't agonize whether something else might have been a hairs breadth better when you stare at pixels long enough. The fact is you might not have taken the picture at all if you had a camera you don't like. In that case buy the Pentax and don't look back.

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MightyMike
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

JimBim wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Shoot RAW and learn how to WB properly, no camera can ever truly get WB perfect, many can come close in many situations but some fall short. I assure you even Nikon falls short. I never trust AWB to get it right, I expect it to come close most of the time but i know how to WB many scenarios either by choosing a neutral white/grey patch or by understanding what WB values are right for sunny, cloudy, shade, and such situations. So consider WB your next target to learn in photography, you'll be amazed at how much better photos will look with the WB set right.

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Mike from Canada
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Thank you Mike.

I look at this different. I do WB manually on my K20. Because this is an old stuff I'm forgiving. Today, when I have to pay my money I want to do my life easier. For me K3 looks like music instrument made from high end material, well built, but tuning must be done with everyone yourself. I can produce excellent pictures with my istDL in manual mode. And I do. But if I pay money, I expect something what would made my life easier: decent AWB, good jpg quality directly from camera, fast autofocus and so on. And there is not a big difference in price between K3 and 6D or D610.

Audrius

It takes me anywhere from 0.5sec to 5sec to set the WB in RAW depending on how finicky I'm being... it takes me 3-6 minutes to edit an image completely, i don't open nor do i edit every RAW photo i take, just the ones i think are good enough to go into a gallery and never duplicates unless the series is significant and even in that case i can just edit 1 and apply that edit to the rest.

0.5sec to 5sec is hardly an inconvenience when one considers how much the right WB can go towards making a great photo.

I also say there is no such thing as decent AWB! to anyone who has looked into this carefully they know AWB regardless of the system gets things right maybe 5-10% of the time. however if you're happy with close and sometimes way off then sure enjoy what AWB has to offer.

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
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JimBim
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to MightyMike, 6 months ago

MightyMike wrote:

JimBim wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Shoot RAW and learn how to WB properly, no camera can ever truly get WB perfect, many can come close in many situations but some fall short. I assure you even Nikon falls short. I never trust AWB to get it right, I expect it to come close most of the time but i know how to WB many scenarios either by choosing a neutral white/grey patch or by understanding what WB values are right for sunny, cloudy, shade, and such situations. So consider WB your next target to learn in photography, you'll be amazed at how much better photos will look with the WB set right.

-- hide signature --

Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
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Thank you Mike.

I look at this different. I do WB manually on my K20. Because this is an old stuff I'm forgiving. Today, when I have to pay my money I want to do my life easier. For me K3 looks like music instrument made from high end material, well built, but tuning must be done with everyone yourself. I can produce excellent pictures with my istDL in manual mode. And I do. But if I pay money, I expect something what would made my life easier: decent AWB, good jpg quality directly from camera, fast autofocus and so on. And there is not a big difference in price between K3 and 6D or D610.

Audrius

It takes me anywhere from 0.5sec to 5sec to set the WB in RAW depending on how finicky I'm being... it takes me 3-6 minutes to edit an image completely, i don't open nor do i edit every RAW photo i take, just the ones i think are good enough to go into a gallery and never duplicates unless the series is significant and even in that case i can just edit 1 and apply that edit to the rest.

0.5sec to 5sec is hardly an inconvenience when one considers how much the right WB can go towards making a great photo.

I also say there is no such thing as decent AWB! to anyone who has looked into this carefully they know AWB regardless of the system gets things right maybe 5-10% of the time. however if you're happy with close and sometimes way off then sure enjoy what AWB has to offer.

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
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Thank you Mike! I like your ideas.

Audrius

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beholder3
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leave now
In reply to James O'Neill, 6 months ago

James O'Neill wrote:

If you like using the Canon or Nikon more and the cost of changing systems isn't prohibitive, CHANGE. No one will hate you, no need to feel guilty. If you like using the Pentax more, stay. Don't expect other people to make your decision,

+1

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JimBim
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Re: leave now
In reply to beholder3, 6 months ago

beholder3 wrote:

James O'Neill wrote:

If you like using the Canon or Nikon more and the cost of changing systems isn't prohibitive, CHANGE. No one will hate you, no need to feel guilty. If you like using the Pentax more, stay. Don't expect other people to make your decision,

+1

???

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johnbachel
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In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

I'd agree with most of those who posted suggesting that the images from each of these cameras would look quite good when properly exposed and processed.  It's also true that the full frame cameras will have an advantage over the Pentax at high ISO's.

Image quality isn't the main thing about these cameras, since all can produce great images.  How do the controls feel to you?  Personally, I think that Pentax has an edge here.  Are you prepared to pay the price premium for lenses to match a full frame camera?  Will you do most of your shooting at low or high ISO settings?  These are factors that should lead you one way or the other.

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photodog25
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

You may want to think about other things besides pure image quality since any of these cameras can do a fine job in this department. Stuff like focus capability and lenses available for your needs may matter a lot here.

Regarding shooting dogs. If you prefocus at certain stops in the course, then you may want to maintain the same depth of field no matter what system you use. If that is the case, f5.6 on a full-frame camera will give you the same depth of field as f4 shot on an APS-C sensor. This means that the K3 will allow you to shoot at either higher shutter speeds, or lower ISO setting as that of the full-fraome cameras that you are considering.

Therefore, if you repeat the test again, do shoot the K3 at ISO 800 and the 6D and D600 at 1600. This should help the image quality of the K3 against the other two.

I just helped a friend get a camera for shooting theater shows. The choices for him were a Canon 6D, a Nikon D7100, and a Olympus EM-1. The guy decided against the 6D because of the weight of the system with the lenses he had to get. He rented the Nikon D7100 and the Olympus EM-1. In the end, he went for the EM-1 with the 12-40/2.8 lens. In his case, maintaining a sufficient depth-of-field was a necessary factor for him. So, roughly, f2.8 on the EM-1 = f4 on the D7100 = f5.6 on the 6D to maintain equivalent depth of field.

Good luck with you choice! I have a friend which competes (with her dogs) in dog agility competitions!

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Wanganuilad
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

JimBim wrote:

.... I see by testing those cameras inside dealer shop,

None of those cameras are doing that woman any justice, she looks realy crook

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jackdan
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

It is not clear to me. Did you or did you not turn auto NR off on the K3?

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kenyee
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Why do you feel they're better?
In reply to JimBim, 6 months ago

JimBim wrote:

I’m comming to conclusion to upgrade my gear. Since 1997 I’m with Pentax. This time I decided to look to other land, specifically C, N. I see by testing those cameras inside dealer shop, that pictures from D610 and 6D are better compare to K3.

Out of curiosity, what do you see is better?  It would help w/ recommendations.

Color?  Sharpness? focusing?  WB?

They all look a little bit different to me.  Did you get a chance to try the Olympus EM-1 while you were there as well?

For dog show shots, you probably want better focusing and fast lenses would be my guess.  The least expensive entry is probably the D7100 because the AF module is best at the price point you're looking at.  The D610 has the D7000's old AF module which is a lot weaker but I'm not sure if the 6D's AF is better.  FF has narrower DOF, so you might have a harder time keeping enough of the dog in focus.

As for the K-3, best bet would be for you to try it at a dog show...rent it for a weekend the next show and use whatever lens you're using w/ your istD.  If you think it's better, buy it.  If not, try another camera to see if it's better.

I doubt you're blowing up your images to 20x30" resolution, so honestly anything w/ at least 16MP is fine.

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dave
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Re: Please help me to stay with Pentax!
In reply to awaldram, 6 months ago

Get a Sony A7 with Pentax adapter if you want FF. It will have excellent results and you can keep your excellent Pentax lenses.

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Pentax K5ii Canon 5D

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