D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
jtra
Contributing MemberPosts: 631
Like?
D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
8 months ago

Hi,

D610 reviews are mostly short, referring to D600 reviews. There are only few through comparisons.

I have noticed this in this Polish review:
http://www.optyczne.pl/254.4-Test_aparatu-Nikon_D610_Rozdzielczo%C5%9B%C4%87.html
(use google translate)

They write the D610 has weaker AA filter than D600 they measured. D600 is here:
http://www.optyczne.pl/191.4-Test_aparatu-Nikon_D600_Rozdzielczo%C5%9B%C4%87.html

D600 had already weak AA filter. As can be seen here (along with D7100):
http://betterfamilyphotos.blogspot.cz/2013/03/thats-moire-nikon-d7100-sample-moire.html
Or here in log-f contrast chart:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d600/D600hVFAI00100.HTM

Only few sites have directly compared D610 vs. D600 image quality. IR has not done full review, but there are some pictures of same scene, the D610 is sharper, there is a more of moire waving in red cloth of D610:
D600: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d600/D600hSLI00100NR0.HTM
D610: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d610/D610hSLI00100NR0.HTM
Also the circular scale on the right side is sharper, though with more visible color aliasing effects. Of course this could be just a fluke.

DxOMark does not publish pictures. But numbers are also different. There is DR improvement at ISO 25600 - I don't care much about that.
But you can also view P-Mpix of lenses where D610 shows sharpness advantage. Example: 28.18g D600 has 18, D610 has 20; Sigma 35/1.4 D600 has 19, D610 has 20. Nikon mikro 200/4D D610 has 19, D600 has 17. Many lenses don't show a change, but no lens I viewed has shown opposite where D610 would score worse.

DPReview does not have comparable D600/D610 pictures (one for D600 were with old scene, the others are with new scene).

This trend of weak and no AA filters worries me. You gain some sharpness that nobody sees (unless you post big crops or view prints with magnifier). But you can completely lose image due to color or contrast moire. The detail that is added is quite likely a false detail so why have it? If you enjoy false detail, you can just use USM or even some fractal upsizing tool and claim you got something sharper and better resolution.

This would be the completely lost image (the second one):
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52149528
Tools to fix moire would be hard to apply. You can just hope it looks ok after complete desaturation.

Moire can spread. It might not be as localized into small place to be easily fixed as you think:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93500598@N02/8591912770/

More you look at the bird here, the more of moire you will see:
http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bVRS?unified_p=1
It just confirms that most of added sharpness is just a false detail which in this case interacts with demosaicing.

Is is worth for added sharpness? Not for me.

I call a year 2013 as a year of false detail as there were so many AA filter-less cameras released. Well, 2012 would be a year of false color due to all tinted pictures fad that people produced - at least some of those had artistic merit, unlike false detail.

Nikon D600 Nikon D610 Nikon D7100
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
diverroy
Contributing MemberPosts: 726
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to jtra, 8 months ago

jtra wrote:
It just confirms that most of added sharpness is just a false detail which in this case interacts with demosaicing.

Is is worth for added sharpness? Not for me.

I call a year 2013 as a year of false detail as there were so many AA filter-less cameras released.

I read your post with interest but cannot agree when you say that the detail you get without an AA filter is false detail.It is the opposite of what you say.The detail with an AA filter is false.

Without the filter the detail you get has not been changed.With the filter the image gets altered and the changed again to the final image.

I imagine that soon there will be a camera where you can turn the AA filter on or off

-- hide signature --

Diverroy

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ruud Wilschut
Regular MemberPosts: 321
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to diverroy, 8 months ago

diverroy wrote:

I imagine that soon there will be a camera where you can turn the AA filter on or off

That will be hard since it is a physical filter.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
mais51
Contributing MemberPosts: 895Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to Ruud Wilschut, 8 months ago

Ruud Wilschut wrote:

diverroy wrote:

I imagine that soon there will be a camera where you can turn the AA filter on or off

That will be hard since it is a physical filter.

Not really, I think Pentax has produced a world first selectable AA filter camera body the Pentax K-3 - read further about this feature here

http://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k3

Mais51

 mais51's gear list:mais51's gear list
Canon PowerShot S120 Nikon D300S Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.4G +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
diverroy
Contributing MemberPosts: 726
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to Ruud Wilschut, 8 months ago

Ruud Wilschut wrote:

diverroy wrote:

I imagine that soon there will be a camera where you can turn the AA filter on or off

That will be hard since it is a physical filter.

Nikon has been working on one.It's only a matter of time

-- hide signature --

Diverroy

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtra
Contributing MemberPosts: 631
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to mais51, 8 months ago

mais51 wrote:
Not really, I think Pentax has produced a world first selectable AA filter camera body the Pentax K-3 - read further about this feature here

http://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k3

Yeah, I like this innovation that is giving you a choice. But I guess it wont work with flash well. Flashes at lower power can be very fast, 1/10000s is common. It freezes motion well and it may freeze motion of that wiggling sensor too.

OTOH, Nikon has patented technology that achieves selectable AA filter using electrooptical way that does not have this disadvantage.
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/08/27/nikons-patent-for-electrically-controlled-optical-low-pass-filter.aspx/
But it is unclear whether it will be usable in realworld.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jack Hogan
Senior MemberPosts: 3,826Gear list
Like?
Apparently Yes: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600
In reply to jtra, 8 months ago

jtra wrote:

Hi,

D610 reviews are mostly short, referring to D600 reviews. There are only few through comparisons...

They write the D610 has weaker AA filter than D600 they measured. D600 is here:
http://www.optyczne.pl/191.4-Test_aparatu-Nikon_D600_Rozdzielczo%C5%9B%C4%87.html

Yes, the sensors in the D610, its cousin the Sony A7 and several newer cameras appear to have a weakened (or no) AA in one direction.  Here is data for the D610 measured off DPR's dim studio scene:

The A7's graph is very similar (accounting for lens differences) except curiously that the Horizontal and Vertical lines are switched.

This trend of weak and no AA filters worries me. You gain some sharpness that nobody sees (unless you post big crops or view prints with magnifier). But you can completely lose image due to color or contrast moire. The detail that is added is quite likely a false detail so why have it?

It's not necessarily false, but we'll never know

Is is worth for added sharpness? Not for me.

Many knowledgeable people have evaluated this question when the D800/e came out.  The answer for that smaller pixel pitch (4.8 microns) appears to be that other than in very specific circumstances most people would be better off with the D800 - but to each their own.

Jack

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jack Hogan
Senior MemberPosts: 3,826Gear list
Like?
AA filters and 'false' detail
In reply to diverroy, 8 months ago

diverroy wrote:

jtra wrote:
It just confirms that most of added sharpness is just a false detail which in this case interacts with demosaicing.

Is is worth for added sharpness? Not for me.

I call a year 2013 as a year of false detail as there were so many AA filter-less cameras released.

I read your post with interest but cannot agree when you say that the detail you get without an AA filter is false detail.It is the opposite of what you say.The detail with an AA filter is false.

Without the filter the detail you get has not been changed.With the filter the image gets altered and the changed again to the final image.

Well, it's not as simple as that - because without an AA filter on a Bayer pattern you are getting incomplete color information while also making it harder to reconstruct the image accurately.  So by removing it you are trading off a little 'noise' of one kind for another.  See for instance here .

Jack

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Svetoslav Popov
Junior MemberPosts: 46
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to jtra, 8 months ago

I hear ya, my friend, i'm too following this development with concern. In the past, when less than 12 MPx was the norm, it was important to have sharpness on pixel level, because you essentially had to blow up your pic way over 100% or 200%, to print bigger sizes.

Nowadays, with 24 Mpx or even 36 Mpx there is no need anymore for sharpness on pixel level. With a few exceptions, you are never reaching 100% zoom in practical applications. If you ask me, the D800 should have not a weaker, but a stronger AA-Filter - because moire can be seen even in web sizes (worst case).

There is a threshold though, when the pixel size in the sensors will be so small, that there would be no lens that can resolve that much detail. That would be the moment to drop AA filters safely.

PS: What Nikon is essentially saying with removing the AA array completely (D7100) is in my opinion this: "This camera will work on lesser lenses without producing artifacts. But if you wanna use real sharp glass, you need to get a better (= more expensive) body."

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jack Hogan
Senior MemberPosts: 3,826Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to jtra, 8 months ago

Folks here may be interested in this related thread .

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtra
Contributing MemberPosts: 631
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to Jack Hogan, 8 months ago

Jack Hogan wrote:

Folks here may be interested in this related thread .

You are right. That is interesting.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Heinz
Senior MemberPosts: 1,628
Like?
Actually it's vice versa
In reply to jtra, 8 months ago

Most lenses score higher on the D600 than on the D610, or did i miss something?

For example the 85 1.4 G score 39 on D610 and 40 wth D600. So do most other lenses.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Picturist
Junior MemberPosts: 45
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to jtra, 8 months ago

jtra wrote:

mais51 wrote:
Not really, I think Pentax has produced a world first selectable AA filter camera body the Pentax K-3 - read further about this feature here

http://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k3

Yeah, I like this innovation that is giving you a choice. But I guess it wont work with flash well. Flashes at lower power can be very fast, 1/10000s is common. It freezes motion well and it may freeze motion of that wiggling sensor too.

Any technology that allows the sensor to move is out of my comfort zone. It is after all, the image plane, where the image is formed right? So wear & tear from friction between the sensor platform & base, or even chemical changes from age or environment to the electronic components resulting in a change or fluctuation to the electrical charge, who knows?

OTOH, Nikon has patented technology that achieves selectable AA filter using electrooptical way that does not have this disadvantage.
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/08/27/nikons-patent-for-electrically-controlled-optical-low-pass-filter.aspx/
But it is unclear whether it will be usable in realworld.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtra
Contributing MemberPosts: 631
Like?
Re: Actually it's vice versa
In reply to Heinz, 8 months ago

Heinz wrote:

Most lenses score higher on the D600 than on the D610, or did i miss something?

For example the 85 1.4 G score 39 on D610 and 40 wth D600. So do most other lenses.

Interesting. D610 has worse score, but better sharpness in P-Mpix than D600.

And when I look at score graphs, the D610 is better at small apertures (f/11 and smaller) and same for big apertures:
85/1.4g with D610 (click on Measurements tab)
85/1.4g with D600 (click on Measurements tab)
So it is hard to understand why D610 has worse score. Perhaps this is about some rounding of numbers and imprecise measurement.

Effect on small apertures can be explained by weaker AA filter. This comparison with D800 and D800E added shows it as well:
Tamron 70-200/2.8 with D600 (click on Measurements tab/Sharpness/P-Mpix)
Tamron 70-200/2.8 with D610 (click on Measurements tab/Sharpness/P-Mpix)
Tamron 70-200/2.8 with D800 (click on Measurements tab/Sharpness/P-Mpix)
Tamron 70-200/2.8 with D800E (click on Measurements tab/Sharpness/P-Mpix)

Too bad DxO has tested only three lenses with D800E and all of them are third party zooms.

But even for this lens, you can see that D600 has worst sharpness of the four, D610 and D800 are same, D800E has best sharpness and the relative difference between D600 and D610 is smaller than relative difference between D800 and D800E. That could be explained by AA filter in single dimension only in D610 as suggested Optyczne and discussed here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52906263

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Truman Prevatt
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,763Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 has weaker AA filter than D600?
In reply to Svetoslav Popov, 8 months ago

Svetoslav Popov wrote:

Nowadays, with 24 Mpx or even 36 Mpx there is no need anymore for sharpness on pixel level. With a few exceptions, you are never reaching 100% zoom in practical applications. If you ask me, the D800 should have not a weaker, but a stronger AA-Filter - because moire can be seen even in web sizes (worst case).

Flat panel monitors are digital devices.  They can produce aliasing - known as Moire in two dimensions - in their own right.  Any digital sampling can produce aliasing when the spatial frequency bandwidth is great that 1/2 the sampling rate.

There is a threshold though, when the pixel size in the sensors will be so small, that there would be no lens that can resolve that much detail. That would be the moment to drop AA filters safely.

There are two cases.  One is when you reach an F-stop where the Airy disk covers multiple pixels and acts as a AA filter (about F8 or 11 on the D800/D800E or when the lens is cannot out resolve the sensor.

In reality there have been cameras on the market for years without an AA filter. The original Kodak DSLR and the Canon 12D and all the Sigma DSLR's using the Foveon sensor chip had no AA filters. The Leica M's also contain no AA filter. Most of the medium format DSLRs and digital backs do not have AA filters.  In most cases unless you are taking shots of very specific subjects with areas of a high spatial frequency component - the added micro contrast you can get without an AA  out weighs any risk of aliasing. Of course if you take your shot at f11 or higher on a D800E you will lose any advantage of not having an AA.

-- hide signature --

Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt

 Truman Prevatt's gear list:Truman Prevatt's gear list
Nikon D800E Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D Nikon AF Nikkor 135mm f/2D DC Nikon AF Nikkor 180mm f/2.8D ED-IF +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads