Have RF lenses had their day ?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
JamieTux
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,789Gear list
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

A rather obvious 'bait-and-switch' marketing ploy... and the extra premium that Aussi customers normally pay for their gear probably covered the cost of the adaptor anyway!

Maybe but it goes against what you are trying to claim, Sony still have to deliver something that the native mount won't otherwise Mr or Mrs CaNikon shooter won't bother with the A7(r) anyway.

It appeals to existing owners of those other systems and encourages them to buy the 'bargain-priced' A7 or A7r. Their existing lenses 'work' on the A7 via the adaptor, but not quite as well as an alternative E-mount lens would work. What do the owners do? Some will certainly replace their current lenses with E-mount ones!

Mabye they will, I for one won't but Sonybare there to make money, of course they want everyone to buy all of their products, as do mist manufacturers (I acknowledge that some are happy to own a niche like Leica)

I'm currently in a rather similar situation... I recently bought an expensive long telephoto zoom in A-mount (70-400G) to use on my NEX-5R as there was nothing suitable in A-mount. The resulting IQ is good, but operationally the the E->A-mount adaptor is driving me crazy so I am now wondering about buying an SLT-A77 (or changing system, or just hoping for an E-mount alternative to be released in the nearish future)!

I currently own an A99 and A7r, I bought the A7r with the 35mm to be my small camera and also so that I can invest in one set of (a mount) lenses, I already owned the 70-400 g2, 24-70, 85 f1.4, 135 f1.8 and 50 f1.4 and a Zeiss Planar 50 f2 and Leica Elmar-C 90 f4 both in m mount. The A7r gives me great results with all of those lenses and the only thing that I lose with any of them in functionality vs using then with native bodies is the IBIS on the a mount lenses...

So I dint really know what you think is hair and switch or what your issues are with the LA-EA4 but I strongly disagree with your conclusion.

Also with regards to the AF info you wish that Sony would release, Sony did that as a white paper a couple of years ago for the e mount, I am not aware of any other company doing that, normally third parties have to reverse engineer everything.

These are the reasons that your post made me laugh enough to respond.

I got 'baited-and-switched' by the 'adaptor' idea, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...

For what reason? Handling? IBIS? You could have bought a Nikon or Canon equivalent lens (if there was one as good) and then looked at their SLR options instead of Sonys, I don't really understand why you feel aggrieved or how you feel Sony have wronged you personally.

And for what it's worth, I think that at current prices the A77 is an amazing camera if you do decide to go down that route.

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

 JamieTux's gear list:JamieTux's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
EinsteinsGhost
Forum ProPosts: 11,217Gear list
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

A rather obvious 'bait-and-switch' marketing ploy... and the extra premium that Aussi customers normally pay for their gear probably covered the cost of the adaptor anyway!

A business is about selling its product, not running a charity program for enthusiasts and professionals alike.

In fact, the selling point of NEX was no different than for a7, or will be for any E-mount camera: size and adaptability. In addition to native lenses. Don't tell me the bait that worked on you was the native E-mount lenses that were available at the time, if you've had NEX for 2+ years like many of us.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
harold1968
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,687Gear list
Like?
Re: You are forgetting something...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

harold1968 wrote:

I wouldn't go for the conspiracy theory.

i haven't used the adapters for A mount lens myself though.

Sony have mentioned a few times that they see the platform as good for other format lenses, and I see no reason for them to lie. Some people have been posting excellent results with other format and legacy lenses. My point is just about the relative cost of Leica lenses.

-- hide signature --

harold.co.il

No need for 'conspiracies'... the fact of (relatively) cheap bodies and (relatively) expensive lenses for the A7/r series is a pretty clear indication of the marketing strategy!

Let's look a bit closer at the A-mount adaptors: they certainly 'work', the resulting IQ is good and the adaptors provide aperture and (for the LA-EA2/4) focus coupling. However using an A-mount lens via the adaptor is nowhere near as nice as using a native E-mount lens on the same body, and likewise it is not as nice to use that A-mout lens on an E-mount body as it is to use the A-mount lens on an A-mount body!

This is strange as it would have been very easy for Sony to improve the experience enormously with just a few changes to the adaptors. eg. For the LA-EA4:

- Use the 19-point AF system instead of the older 15-point one (this would also interest many NEX users)

- Add a toggle button/switch which allows the user to directly select AF point via the D-controller, or even better place a joystick directly on the adaptor that allows AF point selection rather than having to dive into camera body menus as is currently the case

- Add an MF/AF toggle or focus-hold switch to the adaptor (ideally customisable so allow either)

- Allow image magnification when AF is activated so you can check focus (currently disabled)

- Allow focus peaking when AF is activated so you can check focus (currently disabled)

- Sense when the focus ring on a screw-AF lens is moved (this causes the screw drive to turn) so that DMF can be activated on the body

- Assign the button on many longer a customisable value, as is possible on A-mount bodies

At least a few of these things would have been easily possible, particularly as the LA-EA4 is now a second-generation product following on from the LA-EA2... so why didn't Sony do it?

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Your suggestions look very sensible.

i think on the lenses though Sony wanted to hit the ground running. Making the majority of lenses Zeiss was a good movE. This is expensive as Zeiss take a commission per lens. We can see from the A mount and the APS-c Nex that Zeiss lenses are expensive.

the quid pro quo is that Sony lens prices, in my experience, don't drop as much as others, in some cases not at all, so the resale is greater. I prefer to have the Zeiss lenses and pay more for them.

-- hide signature --

harold.co.il

 harold1968's gear list:harold1968's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS30 Sony RX1R Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7 Sony FE 35mm F2.8 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
harold1968
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,687Gear list
Like?
Re: Have RF lenses had their day ?
In reply to EdnaBambrick, 8 months ago

EdnaBambrick wrote:

Leica still has kitsch and that goes a long way. They make good photos, even great, especially when you're north of 800 ISO and 34mm. I wish Leicas worked as good as they look and feel. I had an M6 and still have an M3 and the lenses have a place on those cameras. But they don't live up to the sensors of the day and the price/value relation isn't there.

Lloyd also pretty much said that the FE55 goes head to head and beats the Leica Apo and at 1/8th the cost. The 55 also gave the Coastal Optics a pretty good spanking on JK.

The best lens in the world prior to the Otus was the Apo Sonnar 135mm. But these are heavy lenses my camera bag with an Otus, Apo, the 21mm and FE55 and two bodies weighs 12lbs fully loaded and some of these lenses protrude nearly a foot once you add in the adapter and hood. Hard to be discrete in that case.

The thing is, once you have all of the crap you wanted you start looking for the crap that allows you to leave all of that stuff at home and still get the near IQ you get with the heavy lugging crap.

Yes

and for me, the A7 plus 35mm and 55mm is 90% of what I use.

A good 24mm would be 8% and a 70-200 (or 300) cheapish zoom the remaining 2%

so I am kind of done until the A7.2

-- hide signature --

harold.co.il

 harold1968's gear list:harold1968's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS30 Sony RX1R Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7 Sony FE 35mm F2.8 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
parallaxproblem
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,712
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to JamieTux, 8 months ago

JamieTux wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

A rather obvious 'bait-and-switch' marketing ploy... and the extra premium that Aussi customers normally pay for their gear probably covered the cost of the adaptor anyway!

Maybe but it goes against what you are trying to claim

Not at all

I was saying that Sony is trying to make money on the A7 and A7r system through the FE lenses and so they are not interested in making third party lenses work well on these bodies

This is actually a reversal of the policy with the NEX product line. The NEX bodies were always releatively expensive and Sony were rather slow to bring lenses to market for that system so they encouraged legacy lens use for those products

NEX and A7/R are very different product ranges, but many NEX users still haven't realised that yet

It appeals to existing owners of those other systems and encourages them to buy the 'bargain-priced' A7 or A7r. Their existing lenses 'work' on the A7 via the adaptor, but not quite as well as an alternative E-mount lens would work. What do the owners do? Some will certainly replace their current lenses with E-mount ones!

Mabye they will, I for one won't

Good for you, but not representative

I'm currently in a rather similar situation... I recently bought an expensive long telephoto zoom in A-mount (70-400G) to use on my NEX-5R as there was nothing suitable in A-mount. The resulting IQ is good, but operationally the the E->A-mount adaptor is driving me crazy so I am now wondering about buying an SLT-A77 (or changing system, or just hoping for an E-mount alternative to be released in the nearish future)!

I currently own an A99 and A7r, I bought the A7r with the 35mm to be my small camera and also so that I can invest in one set of (a mount) lenses, I already owned the 70-400 g2, 24-70, 85 f1.4, 135 f1.8 and 50 f1.4 and a Zeiss Planar 50 f2 and Leica Elmar-C 90 f4 both in m mount. The A7r gives me great results with all of those lenses and the only thing that I lose with any of them in functionality vs using then with native bodies is the IBIS on the a mount lenses...

Have you used your A-mount lenses on your camera yet?

If you had you would have noticed that you do not have direct AF focus point selection witout having to dive into the menus (better A-mount bodies typically allow immediate access to this); nor focus peaking nor imgage magnifcation when in AF mode; nor the ability to customise the button on your longer lenses; nor DMF (this is an E-mount feature but which could be calculated for screw-AF A-mount lenses)

I also have an A900, and the 70-400G (v1) is a dream operationally when used on that camera (direct access to all the features I want), but a disappointment in terms of IQ ( http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52639783 ). However the reverse is true of the same lens mounted on a NEX-5R via LA-EA2

So I dint really know what you think is hair and switch or what your issues are with the LA-EA4 but I strongly disagree with your conclusion.

Please see the post just above in reply to 'harold1968' where I list my suggestions for improvments which should have been made to the LA-EA4 prior to release : http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52844912

Also with regards to the AF info you wish that Sony would release, Sony did that as a white paper a couple of years ago for the e mount, I am not aware of any other company doing that, normally third parties have to reverse engineer everything.

Yes, when they were still producing the NEX range (already mentioned this above as part of the NEX strategy). You will notice that they DID NOT release details of the revised AF protocols which were implemented around the time PDAF was introduced into E-mount cameras

DEO-TECH have already said their adaptor's AF problems come from Sony not releasing details of their newer AF protocols and are trying to reverse engineer them so that they can make improvments

And actually companies do licence their mount specs to third parties for a price (the difference with Sony was that it was free). The only company which 'reverse engineered' mounts rather than paying the licensing fees was Sigma which is why there are so many compatibility problems with older Sigma lenses on newer bodies

These are the reasons that your post made me laugh enough to respond.

I hope you laughed long and deep

Rather a rude way to respond to a reasonable argument, don't you think?

I got 'baited-and-switched' by the 'adaptor' idea, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...

For what reason? Handling? IBIS? You could have bought a Nikon or Canon equivalent lens (if there was one as good) and then looked at their SLR options instead of Sonys, I don't really understand why you feel aggrieved or how you feel Sony have wronged you personally.

Why put words into my mouth? This kind of emotive talk just causes flames and arguments

I don't feel 'wronged personally' otherwise I would have sold all my Sony stuff and jumped straight to a Canon 7D and EF100-400/4-5.6 (a pretty good lens, and tests of the Nikon AFS 80-400 suggest that lens is even better than the Sony equivalent though Nikon DSLRs do not appeal to me as I find them confusing to use)

I needed a long lens for my NEX-5R. None was available in E-mount so I bought an A-mount lens and an LA-EA2 adaptor thinking that would be a good option. It turned-out to be a 'working option', but also rather frustrating in use so I need to look at buying an appropriate A-mount body to get the most out of the lens (and my A900 is not suitable, surprisingly)

As I said, bait-and-switch...

And for what it's worth, I think that at current prices the A77 is an amazing camera if you do decide to go down that route.

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
parallaxproblem
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,712
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

A rather obvious 'bait-and-switch' marketing ploy... and the extra premium that Aussi customers normally pay for their gear probably covered the cost of the adaptor anyway!

A business is about selling its product, not running a charity program for enthusiasts and professionals alike.

In fact, the selling point of NEX was no different than for a7, or will be for any E-mount camera: size and adaptability. In addition to native lenses. Don't tell me the bait that worked on you was the native E-mount lenses that were available at the time, if you've had NEX for 2+ years like many of us.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here

Stalking me around the forum, writing unitelligible gibberish beneath my posts and then always getting the same 2 'likes'... very, very strange!

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
EdnaBambrick
Regular MemberPosts: 268Gear list
Like?
Re: Have RF lenses had their day ?
In reply to Lisa O, 8 months ago

Lisa O wrote:

Great!

EdnaBambrick wrote:

The thing is, once you have all of the crap you wanted you start looking for the crap that allows you to leave all of that stuff at home and still get the near IQ you get with the heavy lugging crap.

-- hide signature --

see about me in my profile for more info
http://500px.com/LisaOsta
http://www.flickr.com/photos/losta

More lenses won't make for a better photographer.  Just one with more confusion, regrets, sore muscles and dirty sensors.

I am about to have a big garage sale

 EdnaBambrick's gear list:EdnaBambrick's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2,8/21 Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2/28 Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 1,4/35 Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Gato Amarillo
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,462
Like?
Re: You are forgetting something...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

A good list of suggestions, IMO. Sony is to be applauded for making A-mount adapters available right from the start, but they could have taken things up a notch or two with the new versions.

As to FE lens pricing, it's my opinion that the FE cameras cannot succeed without premium lenses - they have to compete in image quality with the best that Canon and Nikon can offer. So it makes sense that the first lenses are premium priced -- though not out of line with the competition. I expect this is where many wannabe FF users are going to be disappointed -- the lenses to make the most of large sensors are going to be expensive. I see lens prices going up as camera prices come down a little.

Gato

-- hide signature --

"We paint with our brain, not with our hands" -- Michelangelo
Portrait, figure and fantasy photography at Silver Mirage Gallery:
silvermirage.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JamieTux
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,789Gear list
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

A rather obvious 'bait-and-switch' marketing ploy... and the extra premium that Aussi customers normally pay for their gear probably covered the cost of the adaptor anyway!

Maybe but it goes against what you are trying to claim

Not at all

I was saying that Sony is trying to make money on the A7 and A7r system through the FE lenses and so they are not interested in making third party lenses work well on these bodies

So why offer the adapter for free?

This is actually a reversal of the policy with the NEX product line. The NEX bodies were always releatively expensive and Sony were rather slow to bring lenses to market for that system so they encouraged legacy lens use for those products

The NEX 5 was cheap at launch, especially considering the level of sensor.

NEX and A7/R are very different product ranges, but many NEX users still haven't realised that yet

but I am sure that there will be other FE lenses and cameras further down the range, I know that what drove me to move away from NEX and further in to M43 was the lack of decent lenses in E mount - so if you're right about the strategy it backfired at the time (I had the LA-EA1 too before the 2 was announced).

It appeals to existing owners of those other systems and encourages them to buy the 'bargain-priced' A7 or A7r. Their existing lenses 'work' on the A7 via the adaptor, but not quite as well as an alternative E-mount lens would work. What do the owners do? Some will certainly replace their current lenses with E-mount ones!

Mabye they will, I for one won't

Good for you, but not representative

Why am I any less representative than any other individual?  I would expect that most people would buy the lenses that plugged the gaps before replacing their existing ones - but I don't know (and nor do you).

I'm currently in a rather similar situation... I recently bought an expensive long telephoto zoom in A-mount (70-400G) to use on my NEX-5R as there was nothing suitable in A-mount. The resulting IQ is good, but operationally the the E->A-mount adaptor is driving me crazy so I am now wondering about buying an SLT-A77 (or changing system, or just hoping for an E-mount alternative to be released in the nearish future)!

I currently own an A99 and A7r, I bought the A7r with the 35mm to be my small camera and also so that I can invest in one set of (a mount) lenses, I already owned the 70-400 g2, 24-70, 85 f1.4, 135 f1.8 and 50 f1.4 and a Zeiss Planar 50 f2 and Leica Elmar-C 90 f4 both in m mount. The A7r gives me great results with all of those lenses and the only thing that I lose with any of them in functionality vs using then with native bodies is the IBIS on the a mount lenses...

Have you used your A-mount lenses on your camera yet?

Yes for a couple of paid jobs and they work incredibly well!

If you had you would have noticed that you do not have direct AF focus point selection witout having to dive into the menus (better A-mount bodies typically allow immediate access to this); nor focus peaking nor imgage magnifcation when in AF mode; nor the ability to customise the button on your longer lenses; nor DMF (this is an E-mount feature but which could be calculated for screw-AF A-mount lenses)

I need to press one button first the way that I have configured my camera, but with almost all shots that I've taken so far I've used the camera in manual focus.  I use C1 to zoom focus with all lenses and don't have any auto zooming on manual focus.
I can see that this is a personal thing though so I can understand if it's a real issue for you.

I also have an A900, and the 70-400G (v1) is a dream operationally when used on that camera (direct access to all the features I want), but a disappointment in terms of IQ ( http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52639783 ). However the reverse is true of the same lens mounted on a NEX-5R via LA-EA2

I only had the 70-300G on me A900 and the IQ was very impressive (including a day in a national park in Malawi and lots of birds in flight even on overcast days) - everything that I read or heard said that the 70-400 was better too and when I tried it earlier this year (before I got the G2) on my A99 the results were very good!

So I dint really know what you think is hair and switch or what your issues are with the LA-EA4 but I strongly disagree with your conclusion.

Please see the post just above in reply to 'harold1968' where I list my suggestions for improvments which should have been made to the LA-EA4 prior to release : http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52844912

I think that asking for top of the line AF in the adapter is a little unrealistic - as it would add cost (and people would be up in arms about that too!) but the other points seems well thought through but fortunately for me - it works for me.

Rather a rude way to respond to a reasonable argument, don't you think?

Not really - your post doesn't seem reasonable, it looks like a bunch of conclusions that you've made presented as fact - that's why I laughed.

I got 'baited-and-switched' by the 'adaptor' idea, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...

For what reason? Handling? IBIS? You could have bought a Nikon or Canon equivalent lens (if there was one as good) and then looked at their SLR options instead of Sonys, I don't really understand why you feel aggrieved or how you feel Sony have wronged you personally.

Why put words into my mouth? This kind of emotive talk just causes flames and arguments

What does bait-and-switch mean to you?  To me it means being deliberately deceptive to a customer by selling them something that doesn't exist in order to get more money from them.  It is a criminal activity that can result in criminal punishment.

A quick google brings lots of entries with terms like illegal, deceptive, fraud, etc.

So that's the emotive talk which as you say has brought flames and arguments - apologies for reacting but that's quite a strong term to me.

I don't feel 'wronged personally' otherwise I would have sold all my Sony stuff and jumped straight to a Canon 7D and EF100-400/4-5.6 (a pretty good lens, and tests of the Nikon AFS 80-400 suggest that lens is even better than the Sony equivalent though Nikon DSLRs do not appeal to me as I find them confusing to use)

Yes the Canon lens is very good (although I've seem plenty of reports of variable results between lenses) but it doesn't focus as fast as the Sony and doesn't focus as fast as the G2.

I needed a long lens for my NEX-5R. None was available in E-mount so I bought an A-mount lens and an LA-EA2 adaptor thinking that would be a good option. It turned-out to be a 'working option', but also rather frustrating in use so I need to look at buying an appropriate A-mount body to get the most out of the lens (and my A900 is not suitable, surprisingly)

Have you had your 70-400 and A900 checked by Sony?  I can show you plenty of examples of the 70-300G performing much better on my A900 than the 70-400 lens did in yours (this isn't a bash on you - I seriously think from your post that you could have an issue there).

As I said, bait-and-switch...

And as I said - that's the emotive trigger again - that's an illegal activity that you are accusing Sony of doing - that's why I thought you were taking it personally and that's why I reacted.

And for what it's worth, I think that at current prices the A77 is an amazing camera if you do decide to go down that route.

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

 JamieTux's gear list:JamieTux's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JamieTux
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,789Gear list
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

A rather obvious 'bait-and-switch' marketing ploy... and the extra premium that Aussi customers normally pay for their gear probably covered the cost of the adaptor anyway!

A business is about selling its product, not running a charity program for enthusiasts and professionals alike.

In fact, the selling point of NEX was no different than for a7, or will be for any E-mount camera: size and adaptability. In addition to native lenses. Don't tell me the bait that worked on you was the native E-mount lenses that were available at the time, if you've had NEX for 2+ years like many of us.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here

Stalking me around the forum, writing unitelligible gibberish beneath my posts and then always getting the same 2 'likes'... very, very strange!

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

I think that EG is trying to say that the A7 selling points are the same as the original NEX - the only thing that I'd add is that there is a close competitor here (Leica) that is multiple times more expensive on every product (bodies and lenses) so to some the FE lenses look like bargains rather than very expensive items - I am sure that Sony will release more Sony lenses (like the current kit one) at a lower price as the system gains traction (and equally sure that they won't bother if it doesn't).

 JamieTux's gear list:JamieTux's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
parallaxproblem
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,712
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to JamieTux, 8 months ago

JamieTux wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

A rather obvious 'bait-and-switch' marketing ploy... and the extra premium that Aussi customers normally pay for their gear probably covered the cost of the adaptor anyway!

Maybe but it goes against what you are trying to claim

Not at all

I was saying that Sony is trying to make money on the A7 and A7r system through the FE lenses and so they are not interested in making third party lenses work well on these bodies

So why offer the adapter for free?

I think I've already answered that question

This is actually a reversal of the policy with the NEX product line. The NEX bodies were always releatively expensive and Sony were rather slow to bring lenses to market for that system so they encouraged legacy lens use for those products

The NEX 5 was cheap at launch, especially considering the level of sensor.

Not really. If you look at the prices of NEX bodies prior to discount they were pretty similar to the prices of DSLRs with the same sensor inside. Except NEX bodies didn't really need any precision to construct whereas DSLRs need the mirror box, OVF, PD sensors etc... many more components and a much greater level of precision in construction. Mirrorless cameras have a higher margin than DSLRs

This is one of the reasons why the A7 and A7r can be sold cheaper than similar-sensored DSLRs.  It seems to me that Sony have changed their pricing model with this range

NEX and A7/R are very different product ranges, but many NEX users still haven't realised that yet

but I am sure that there will be other FE lenses and cameras further down the range, I know that what drove me to move away from NEX and further in to M43 was the lack of decent lenses in E mount - so if you're right about the strategy it backfired at the time (I had the LA-EA1 too before the 2 was announced).

I think there were several reasons for the lack of lenses, not least that Sony didn't understand who was buying NEX cameras (how many versions of the 18-200? how few pancake prime lenses?) and probably some internal politics and competition between the various depts (which the NEX team seems to have lost) not to mention floods etc

The fact remains that A7/r series and NEX are very different product ranges which have a different philosophy, as you seem to accept

It appeals to existing owners of those other systems and encourages them to buy the 'bargain-priced' A7 or A7r. Their existing lenses 'work' on the A7 via the adaptor, but not quite as well as an alternative E-mount lens would work. What do the owners do? Some will certainly replace their current lenses with E-mount ones!

Mabye they will, I for one won't

Good for you, but not representative

Why am I any less representative than any other individual? I would expect that most people would buy the lenses that plugged the gaps before replacing their existing ones - but I don't know (and nor do you).

I'm currently in a rather similar situation... I recently bought an expensive long telephoto zoom in A-mount (70-400G) to use on my NEX-5R as there was nothing suitable in A-mount. The resulting IQ is good, but operationally the the E->A-mount adaptor is driving me crazy so I am now wondering about buying an SLT-A77 (or changing system, or just hoping for an E-mount alternative to be released in the nearish future)!

I currently own an A99 and A7r, I bought the A7r with the 35mm to be my small camera and also so that I can invest in one set of (a mount) lenses, I already owned the 70-400 g2, 24-70, 85 f1.4, 135 f1.8 and 50 f1.4 and a Zeiss Planar 50 f2 and Leica Elmar-C 90 f4 both in m mount. The A7r gives me great results with all of those lenses and the only thing that I lose with any of them in functionality vs using then with native bodies is the IBIS on the a mount lenses...

Have you used your A-mount lenses on your camera yet?

Yes for a couple of paid jobs and they work incredibly well!

If you had you would have noticed that you do not have direct AF focus point selection witout having to dive into the menus (better A-mount bodies typically allow immediate access to this); nor focus peaking nor imgage magnifcation when in AF mode; nor the ability to customise the button on your longer lenses; nor DMF (this is an E-mount feature but which could be calculated for screw-AF A-mount lenses)

I need to press one button first the way that I have configured my camera, but with almost all shots that I've taken so far I've used the camera in manual focus. I use C1 to zoom focus with all lenses and don't have any auto zooming on manual focus.
I can see that this is a personal thing though so I can understand if it's a real issue for you.

It's not an issue in 'normal' photography, but for wildlife/birds every nano-second counts...

I bought the LA-EA2 for that specific task as prior to that I was using the LA-EA1 and MF

I also have an A900, and the 70-400G (v1) is a dream operationally when used on that camera (direct access to all the features I want), but a disappointment in terms of IQ ( http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52639783 ). However the reverse is true of the same lens mounted on a NEX-5R via LA-EA2

I only had the 70-300G on me A900 and the IQ was very impressive (including a day in a national park in Malawi and lots of birds in flight even on overcast days) - everything that I read or heard said that the 70-400 was better too and when I tried it earlier this year (before I got the G2) on my A99 the results were very good!

A900 also performs pretty badly with my 500/8 reflex

One of the potential causes might be 'Mirror Slap' which obviously wouldn't be a problem for the A99...

So I dint really know what you think is hair and switch or what your issues are with the LA-EA4 but I strongly disagree with your conclusion.

Please see the post just above in reply to 'harold1968' where I list my suggestions for improvments which should have been made to the LA-EA4 prior to release : http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52844912

I think that asking for top of the line AF in the adapter is a little unrealistic - as it would add cost (and people would be up in arms about that too!) but the other points seems well thought through but fortunately for me - it works for me.

The AF was introduced in 2011 so it's not brand new now. If Sony release a '5' or '6' series SLT camera then one would normally expect it to be included in it, with maybe something even better reserved for the advanced model?

Rather a rude way to respond to a reasonable argument, don't you think?

Not really - your post doesn't seem reasonable, it looks like a bunch of conclusions that you've made presented as fact - that's why I laughed.

I got 'baited-and-switched' by the 'adaptor' idea, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...

For what reason? Handling? IBIS? You could have bought a Nikon or Canon equivalent lens (if there was one as good) and then looked at their SLR options instead of Sonys, I don't really understand why you feel aggrieved or how you feel Sony have wronged you personally.

Why put words into my mouth? This kind of emotive talk just causes flames and arguments

What does bait-and-switch mean to you? To me it means being deliberately deceptive to a customer by selling them something that doesn't exist in order to get more money from them. It is a criminal activity that can result in criminal punishment.

A quick google brings lots of entries with terms like illegal, deceptive, fraud, etc.

So that's the emotive talk which as you say has brought flames and arguments - apologies for reacting but that's quite a strong term to me.

I don't feel 'wronged personally' otherwise I would have sold all my Sony stuff and jumped straight to a Canon 7D and EF100-400/4-5.6 (a pretty good lens, and tests of the Nikon AFS 80-400 suggest that lens is even better than the Sony equivalent though Nikon DSLRs do not appeal to me as I find them confusing to use)

Yes the Canon lens is very good (although I've seem plenty of reports of variable results between lenses) but it doesn't focus as fast as the Sony and doesn't focus as fast as the G2.

I'm stuck with the G1... Nice optics and build, but somewhat 'lethargic' (at least on the LA-EA2, maybe different on the A77 or A99?)

I needed a long lens for my NEX-5R. None was available in E-mount so I bought an A-mount lens and an LA-EA2 adaptor thinking that would be a good option. It turned-out to be a 'working option', but also rather frustrating in use so I need to look at buying an appropriate A-mount body to get the most out of the lens (and my A900 is not suitable, surprisingly)

Have you had your 70-400 and A900 checked by Sony? I can show you plenty of examples of the 70-300G performing much better on my A900 than the 70-400 lens did in yours (this isn't a bash on you - I seriously think from your post that you could have an issue there).

Thanks for the suggestion

My A900 works very with shorter focal lengths but is not good with either my 70-400 or my 500/8 reflex. Looking at commentaries from the time of launch on Dyxum, people found that the 70-400 worked better with the A700 than with the A900 and there was lots of talk about vibration issues with the A900 and having to hold the camera in a special way to 'absorb the vibrations' (!)

In terms of pure IQ, my NEX-5R/70-400G combo also rather convincingly stompedl-over a friend's 5DII with 100-400 (though their superior AF and deeper buffer meant they got many shots I missed). 5DII and A900 were contemporaries...

I think the (obviously) superior performance of the NEX over the A900 was down to two factors

- Mirror slap and 'shutter shock' (whatever) on the A900

- Newer, higher resolution sensor on the NEX-5R

I guess I could get it checked-over...  cheaper than buying an A77 if they do find something (but money down the drain if they don't...)

As I said, bait-and-switch...

And as I said - that's the emotive trigger again - that's an illegal activity that you are accusing Sony of doing - that's why I thought you were taking it personally and that's why I reacted.

And for what it's worth, I think that at current prices the A77 is an amazing camera if you do decide to go down that route.

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JamieTux
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,789Gear list
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

but I am sure that there will be other FE lenses and cameras further down the range, I know that what drove me to move away from NEX and further in to M43 was the lack of decent lenses in E mount - so if you're right about the strategy it backfired at the time (I had the LA-EA1 too before the 2 was announced).

I think there were several reasons for the lack of lenses, not least that Sony didn't understand who was buying NEX cameras (how many versions of the 18-200? how few pancake prime lenses?) and probably some internal politics and competition between the various depts (which the NEX team seems to have lost) not to mention floods etc

The fact remains that A7/r series and NEX are very different product ranges which have a different philosophy, as you seem to accept

Yes, the original firmware kind of showed that Sony were trying to dumb everything down on the NEX and give point and shoot users an upgrade path to interchangeable lens cameras (to sell lenses and accessories) - the A7 realises that it's an enthusiast camera from the off.

It's not an issue in 'normal' photography, but for wildlife/birds every nano-second counts...

I bought the LA-EA2 for that specific task as prior to that I was using the LA-EA1 and MF

OK - well hopefully I can do some of that soon - our weather over here has been newsworthy pretty much since I picked up my A7r - I am hoping to try some birding as soon as the weather clears.  I thought initially that the A99 focussed more quickly than my A7r plus adapter - but after lots of testing I've realised that it's pyschological.  However - it's not as sophisticated and doesn't have things like the focus limiter of the A99 (and doesn't have IBIS!)

I also have an A900, and the 70-400G (v1) is a dream operationally when used on that camera (direct access to all the features I want), but a disappointment in terms of IQ ( http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52639783 ). However the reverse is true of the same lens mounted on a NEX-5R via LA-EA2

I only had the 70-300G on me A900 and the IQ was very impressive (including a day in a national park in Malawi and lots of birds in flight even on overcast days) - everything that I read or heard said that the 70-400 was better too and when I tried it earlier this year (before I got the G2) on my A99 the results were very good!

A900 also performs pretty badly with my 500/8 reflex

One of the potential causes might be 'Mirror Slap' which obviously wouldn't be a problem for the A99...

I've not really seen much difference on long lenses between My A99 and A900 (on centre focus point).

I'm stuck with the G1... Nice optics and build, but somewhat 'lethargic' (at least on the LA-EA2, maybe different on the A77 or A99?)

I rented one the week I bought my A99 as the G2 wasn't available in the UK for a job (it actually got delivered while I was out on the job) and the G1 was very quick on the A99 - my 5D2 toting wedding phootgrapher colleague couldn't get over how fast it focussed!

Thanks for the suggestion

My A900 works very with shorter focal lengths but is not good with either my 70-400 or my 500/8 reflex. Looking at commentaries from the time of launch on Dyxum, people found that the 70-400 worked better with the A700 than with the A900 and there was lots of talk about vibration issues with the A900 and having to hold the camera in a special way to 'absorb the vibrations' (!)

Yeah - I remember those posts but I never found that personally...  I sold it in the end as the AF was too sluggish off centre and I was shooting some high end sports that it didn't like!  The A99 is a big improvement there - although there still isn't a great choice of lenses for that type of thing in either Sony mount at the moment.

In terms of pure IQ, my NEX-5R/70-400G combo also rather convincingly stompedl-over a friend's 5DII with 100-400 (though their superior AF and deeper buffer meant they got many shots I missed). 5DII and A900 were contemporaries...

I've used both quite a lot (I used the 5D2 for a couple of years too) - the 5D2 had the same AF issue as the A900, in that only the centre one was reliable.  It's a great sensor for its age but an awful camera - the metering was shot too.  I had the 7D at the same time and it was a much better camera (although the sensor was not as good, especially as the ISO rose - which you would expect!).

I think the (obviously) superior performance of the NEX over the A900 was down to two factors

- Mirror slap and 'shutter shock' (whatever) on the A900

Maybe - maybe it has a lighter AA filter too - that can make quite a difference.

- Newer, higher resolution sensor on the NEX-5R

I guess I could get it checked-over... cheaper than buying an A77 if they do find something (but money down the drain if they don't...)

That's the real issue - especially once they are out of warranty.  At low ISO though the A77 doesn't give anything up to the A900 in terms of IQ - and it "gives" reach.  I don't know how much the checking would cost, but if it's a significant fraction of the price of the A77 I think that the A77 would be a better choice, especially if the A900 is working well with other lenses and the lens is working well on other bodies.

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

 JamieTux's gear list:JamieTux's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Tom Caldwell
Forum ProPosts: 18,209
Like?
Re: Have RF lenses had their day ?
In reply to harold1968, 8 months ago

Careful Harold, you are walking on sacred ground and you would not wish to start a myth, or worse, debunk one.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
parallaxproblem
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,712
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to JamieTux, 8 months ago

JamieTux wrote:

I rented one the week I bought my A99 as the G2 wasn't available in the UK for a job (it actually got delivered while I was out on the job) and the G1 was very quick on the A99 - my 5D2 toting wedding phootgrapher colleague couldn't get over how fast it focussed!

Intersting, you found the 70-400 G1 and G2 had similar AF performance on the A99?

That suggests potentially decent peformance on the A77..?

Maybe - maybe it has a lighter AA filter too - that can make quite a difference.I've used both quite a lot (I used the 5D2 for a couple of years too) - the 5D2 had the same AF issue as the A900, in that only the centre one was reliable. It's a great sensor for its age but an awful camera - the metering was shot too. I had the 7D at the same time and it was a much better camera (although the sensor was not as good, especially as the ISO rose - which you would expect!).

Thank you for sharing this experience!

How would you rate the 7D against the A77?

Do you have a feeling about the combination of 7D+100-400 vs A77+70-400, particularly in terms of AF and IQ?

That's the real issue - especially once they are out of warranty. At low ISO though the A77 doesn't give anything up to the A900 in terms of IQ - and it "gives" reach.

Only problem is that high-ISO is useful in typical 'dirty' northern European lighting conditions Noise performance is another nice property of the 16MP APS-C sensor, being acceptable up to 1600 and sometimes useable at 3200

I don't know how much the checking would cost, but if it's a significant fraction of the price of the A77 I think that the A77 would be a better choice, especially if the A900 is working well with other lenses and the lens is working well on other bodies.

To be honest I'm not 'pixel-peeping' to the same extent on the shorter focal lengths and don't need anything like the level of crop...  but I've been satisfied with the performance at lower focal lengths what I need

I'll ask the price, but I think they'll want to send it to Germany which will mean a couple of months without either body or lens

I'll see if I can speak with a tech and send them the images in case there is some 'known issue' with longer lenses on the A900 which could be causing it...

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Tom Caldwell
Forum ProPosts: 18,209
Like?
and in the new reality ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

The A7/r bodies have a very different design philosophy from the earlier NEX series: NEX 'embraced' legacy lenses whereas the A7/r bodies are basically built to sell the expensive Sony FE lenses

Even the LA-EA3 and LA-EA4 don't provide particularly satisfactory connectivity to Sony's own A-mount glass, being effectively lazy updates of the LA-EA1 & LA-EA2 (both of which I own) which carry on unfixed all the annoying bugs of the earlier adaptors and provide neither PDAF compatibility with the LA-EA3, nor the newer, more advanced 19-point AF system on the LA-EA4

If Sony wanted you to use legacy glass on the A7 they would have released their full AF protocols to the third party adaptor builders: they haven't which is why the DEO tech Contax G adaptor still has shaky AF performance and the various EOS adaptors are seemingly rather slow in terms of AF. Sony would also have released an ultra-wide lens option in the first batch of lens releases since there are already plenty of good 35mm and 50mm RF lenses around, but they didn't...

Sony priced the A7 and A7r low with the expectation of recovering the margin on the lenses (the NEX series bodies were always comparatively more expensive). Of course Sony won't make it so easy for us to use third party RF lenses!

Maybe the A7/r replacements will contain sensors which perform better with legacy glass (after the development costs have been recovered somewhat by the first models and early lens sales), in the same way the NEX-5n offered big improvements in this respect over the NEX-5?

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Well put, Sony are caught in a cleft stick, they don't have a wide range of FE lenses to offer, and they are bound to be quite expensive. Only really suitable for those well heeled enough and willing to start a completely new lens collection. Obviously by normal definition those fairly new to setting up a camera system.

Those who have been at it for years already have some (or more) good glass and have various degrees of willingness to start all over again. Those that want most of the benefits of good glass on a lens $ budget have the opportunity to get there on a legacy lens assignment. Leica Zeiss tragics of course want to use these excellent lenses forever on whatever camera they choose, preferrably a Leica, but are always interested in something more affordable.

So Sony don't want to make it too easy to use non-FE lenses but they need good volume of A7 type sales to create a market for their FE lenses, to just make it "possible". Nor do they really want any other lens that can be possibly be mounted to better what a FE lens might deliver.

I think that access to the A7 type and it's successor bodies will never be perfect, just do-able, and the friendliness to third market lenses will get less as the market penetration of FE suitable type camera bodies increases (not get more friendly). Access to lenses other than FE on the present A7 type is probably about as good as it gets. Sony want users to buy more FE lenses and plenty of them and users had better get used to the price for quality lenses which is more likely to go up than down. Of course not that far away are cheaper built kit lensed "FE" cameras both in aps-c and FF sensor build. Most new lenses, kit or otherwise, are likely to be FF sensor capable and of course will retrofit to the NEX bodies.

Happy days in the new reality.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
parallaxproblem
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,712
Like?
Re: and in the new reality ...
In reply to Tom Caldwell, 8 months ago

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Well put, Sony are caught in a cleft stick, they don't have a wide range of FE lenses to offer, and they are bound to be quite expensive. Only really suitable for those well heeled enough and willing to start a completely new lens collection. Obviously by normal definition those fairly new to setting up a camera system.

Those who have been at it for years already have some (or more) good glass and have various degrees of willingness to start all over again. Those that want most of the benefits of good glass on a lens $ budget have the opportunity to get there on a legacy lens assignment. Leica Zeiss tragics of course want to use these excellent lenses forever on whatever camera they choose, preferrably a Leica, but are always interested in something more affordable.

So Sony don't want to make it too easy to use non-FE lenses but they need good volume of A7 type sales to create a market for their FE lenses, to just make it "possible". Nor do they really want any other lens that can be possibly be mounted to better what a FE lens might deliver.

I think that access to the A7 type and it's successor bodies will never be perfect, just do-able, and the friendliness to third market lenses will get less as the market penetration of FE suitable type camera bodies increases (not get more friendly). Access to lenses other than FE on the present A7 type is probably about as good as it gets. Sony want users to buy more FE lenses and plenty of them and users had better get used to the price for quality lenses which is more likely to go up than down. Of course not that far away are cheaper built kit lensed "FE" cameras both in aps-c and FF sensor build. Most new lenses, kit or otherwise, are likely to be FF sensor capable and of course will retrofit to the NEX bodies.

Happy days in the new reality.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

What's interesting about this new experiment is that Sony are going 'in the opposite direction' from most manufacturers with their FF E-mount system.  For Nikon, Canon and A-mount: FF bodies allowed the majority of the *existing* lenses in that system to be used properly on digital for the first time

That was why I bought an FF A900 five years ago: not for the better IQ of a full frame sensor but because I wanted my lovely 85/1.4 to be an 85mm lens again, not a nearly-unusable 130mm portrait lens, and I wanted my 50/1.4 to be a standard lens again not a 'portrait lens without the portrait rendering'...

The issue here is that E-mount is uniquely 'moving-up' from APS-C to FF and although you 'can' use the existing APS-C lenses on the FF bodies, it is not too intersting to do so as it results in a crop which is equivalent or worse to the performance of the original NEX cameras from 2010, or alternatively it requires you 'geeking-around' trying to work out how much of the image circle of the APS-C lens is viable on a FF sensor without crop and then considering this when you frame your photos

That leaves Sony having to create a completely new range of FE lenses, whilst at the same time, as you so accurately describe in your above postl, trying to balance their 'encoragement and support' of other makes of FF lenses on the new bodies such that people believe there are some options, but not 'encourage and support' them so much that they present a threat to FE lens sales

I regret that Sony took this approach.  It would have been more adventurous to present the new FF body as an 'oversized-sensor' NEX (ideally in a NEX-sized body) which allowed lots of crop ratios within the APS-C image circle (1:1, 16:9 etc) and some exciting new tech (better AF?) which might encourage existing APS-C lens owners to buy the camera in order to get *more* out of their *exisiting* lenses.  This would have required a 36.4MP or higher sensor (otherwise the crops would have been uninteresting in terms of resolution) but it would have kept current users on-board.  Of course Sony could still release FF lenses but the pressure to build a new FF system quickly would be lower and they could still release APS-C lenses to fill-out the older-system

As it stands, Sony have instead rather stupidly created a 'chasm' in E-mount ownership with two very different types of customers owning NEX and A7/r series, as is very clear in this forum.  I hope the new release announcements planned for spring go some way to closing that chasm otherwise we will begin to see an increasing number of NEX customers jumping-ship as the realisation of what has happened sinks-in

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Tom Caldwell
Forum ProPosts: 18,209
Like?
For all the happy chatter there are still hurdles to jump over
In reply to JamieTux, 8 months ago

JamieTux wrote:

Is that why they gave a voucher for a free metabones adapter in Australia?
http://www.sony.com.au/microsite/a7redemption/

I guess that they were just trying to stop the good old Aussie buying their camera overseas and adding a cheaper Chinese adapter. The Aussie dollar has been pretty high for a while and imports still come in GST (10%) free if cost is less than AUD$1,000. I hardly need state the obvious.

Of course the high dollar has been crushing local industry and retailers paying stratospheric rent in shopping malls and so there has been a valiant effort by those in charge to bring the AUD$ down in value. However local (at least regional) vendors have been quite unenthuiastic about the A7 type and Sony in general presumably because anyone here knowing their cameras has been buying direct mail whether locally or from overseas. Thereby becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy.

It seems a circular argument - high rents mean the need to get quick turnover of product with good margins. Only dslr gear offers good margins on the higher ticket items so retailers stock them and a swag of compacts and "popular" mirrorless lines - easy sells. So if you want to get something "more original and interesting" you just have to buy on-line. And on line can be from anywhere. And so the argument goes back to the first part.

Customers who arrive in the camera retailer are mmost often less well informed and so the sales staff need have no idea beyond how to switch the camera on and hand it to the potential customer to play with, but they usually do know how many megapixels are inside. Dumbing down the retail industry, specialist dealers become no more than print bureaus and a showcase of quite expensive dslr cameras and lenses to impress the customer with his or her retirement cheque and needing their first "proper camera" - a really big one please ... and it must go furiously clackitty-clack when you hold the shutter button down.

I also subscribe to the buyer's code of conduct. If I bother a retailer to talk about gear or demonstrate a product then I feel obliged to buy that product from him, even if it is more expensive. The rationale is that I have used valuable time and there is rent to pay. I get the advantage (hopefully) of someone knowledgeable in the industry who knows their product. However the plague on the retail industry are those who test drive locally in a shop and then buy on line to get a cheaper price. But I don't want to talk to an assistant who knows nothing about cameras and simply cannot be bothered to learn.

As camera retailers sink into despair there are often only assistants without more than point and shoot knowledge in charge and they don't know their product or industry trends. More often than not a less knowledgeable customer is steered by the more artful assistant towards a product that is in stock and the potential well informed customer's preferred choice is damned as faulty - usually "poor manufacturer warranty", "unreliable" or some other similar words.

So much for going to a retailer for "advice" - they usually know nothing, do not have the product that interests you and only have "popular" bland products that they bought in bulk to get a better margin. Sony has a real hurdle to jump over with the A7 type, no matter how good it is and despite all the happy chatter on this forum.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JamieTux
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,789Gear list
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

parallaxproblem wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

I rented one the week I bought my A99 as the G2 wasn't available in the UK for a job (it actually got delivered while I was out on the job) and the G1 was very quick on the A99 - my 5D2 toting wedding phootgrapher colleague couldn't get over how fast it focussed!

Intersting, you found the 70-400 G1 and G2 had similar AF performance on the A99?

I didn't try them side by side in the end - but the G1 was pretty fast (with a caveat later).

That suggests potentially decent peformance on the A77..?

Maybe - maybe it has a lighter AA filter too - that can make quite a difference.I've used both quite a lot (I used the 5D2 for a couple of years too) - the 5D2 had the same AF issue as the A900, in that only the centre one was reliable. It's a great sensor for its age but an awful camera - the metering was shot too. I had the 7D at the same time and it was a much better camera (although the sensor was not as good, especially as the ISO rose - which you would expect!).

Thank you for sharing this experience!

How would you rate the 7D against the A77?

OK first caveat is that I've not owned actually an A77, I have used them but for my own kit I went straight to the A99 when I bought back into Sony - but most of these comments hold true for the A99 which I've used a lot.

The first point is though that it depends what you are using it for - I like the look of Sony files and love the Zeiss lenses, I also like the tiltable screen and like manipulating DR a lot in post for landscapes so my decision is easy ... If this was mainly a camera for birding though...

Do you have a feeling about the combination of 7D+100-400 vs A77+70-400, particularly in terms of AF and IQ?

The 7D has very quick AF, very intelligent tracking, great metering, decent noise at high iso and a really neat 'spot' focus to peer through branches.

The A99 focus is much better than the A99 but it's still not at high end Canon or Nikon levels really (other than centre point). Like I said it's not any quicker than the A7r with the LA-EA4 with the same lens.

The 7D retains a lot of detail at low ISOs, it goes at higher ISOs (but the files are still pretty clean if you nail exposure). You also have a much bigger choice of lenses (the 400 f5.6 and Sigma 12-300 f2.8 spring to mind on sensible(ish) budgets). So if it were just for birding and wildlife I would choose the Canon personally.

Most of my work photography is people or products though so my needs are very different to a birders

Here are some of my personal shots with the 7D though if you're interested
http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=98072442@N00&q=7d

For comparison, here's the first 400mm shot I found on flickr that I took with the A99 and 70-400 - conditions are fairly close to some of those Sparrows...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamestux/9629470453/

So for static(ish) subjects my Sony combo wins for me, I would expect the A77 to do pretty similarly at ISO 200 with the same lens

That's the real issue - especially once they are out of warranty. At low ISO though the A77 doesn't give anything up to the A900 in terms of IQ - and it "gives" reach.

Only problem is that high-ISO is useful in typical 'dirty' northern European lighting conditions Noise performance is another nice property of the 16MP APS-C sensor, being acceptable up to 1600 and sometimes useable at 3200

I know - I live in the UK

I don't know how much the checking would cost, but if it's a significant fraction of the price of the A77 I think that the A77 would be a better choice, especially if the A900 is working well with other lenses and the lens is working well on other bodies.

To be honest I'm not 'pixel-peeping' to the same extent on the shorter focal lengths and don't need anything like the level of crop... but I've been satisfied with the performance at lower focal lengths what I need

I'll ask the price, but I think they'll want to send it to Germany which will mean a couple of months without either body or lens

I'll see if I can speak with a tech and send them the images in case there is some 'known issue' with longer lenses on the A900 which could be causing it...

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

 JamieTux's gear list:JamieTux's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
parallaxproblem
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,712
Like?
Re: Why the giggles?
In reply to JamieTux, 8 months ago

JamieTux wrote:

OK first caveat is that I've not owned actually an A77, I have used them but for my own kit I went straight to the A99 when I bought back into Sony - but most of these comments hold true for the A99 which I've used a lot.

The first point is though that it depends what you are using it for - I like the look of Sony files and love the Zeiss lenses, I also like the tiltable screen and like manipulating DR a lot in post for landscapes so my decision is easy ... If this was mainly a camera for birding though...

The 7D has very quick AF, very intelligent tracking, great metering, decent noise at high iso and a really neat 'spot' focus to peer through branches.

The A99 focus is much better than the A99 but it's still not at high end Canon or Nikon levels really (other than centre point). Like I said it's not any quicker than the A7r with the LA-EA4 with the same lens.

The 7D retains a lot of detail at low ISOs, it goes at higher ISOs (but the files are still pretty clean if you nail exposure). You also have a much bigger choice of lenses (the 400 f5.6 and Sigma 12-300 f2.8 spring to mind on sensible(ish) budgets). So if it were just for birding and wildlife I would choose the Canon personally.

Most of my work photography is people or products though so my needs are very different to a birders

Here are some of my personal shots with the 7D though if you're interested
http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=98072442@N00&q=7d

For comparison, here's the first 400mm shot I found on flickr that I took with the A99 and 70-400 - conditions are fairly close to some of those Sparrows...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamestux/9629470453/

So for static(ish) subjects my Sony combo wins for me, I would expect the A77 to do pretty similarly at ISO 200 with the same lens

Thank you for your advice and sharing your images, it is very helpful...  those are some really beautiful pictures!

The sparrows are nice, and the eagle is really impressive!  I like sparrows: sadly they are getting a bit rare in the UK now but there are still plenty in Switzerland

Actually static subjects do fine with what I've got, it's when things start moving that the problems start!  Basically I either get a body to make better use of my 70-400 with birds/wildlife (I guess the A77) or sell the 70-400 and get both a dedicated body+lens in another system...  from what you say the 7D with either 100-400 or 400/5.6 would probably be the best option in this situation

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Tom Caldwell
Forum ProPosts: 18,209
Like?
Re: and in the new reality ...
In reply to parallaxproblem, 8 months ago

Right at the moment brand-loyalty and the wonder of a FF sensor actually working in such a small format will keep the A7 type going for a while.

A lot depends upon just how much market purchase the A7 type gets before some other manufacturer provides something similar..  In fact I have wondered why Canon, for instance has not provided a mirrorless version of one of their FF dslr cameras - it would hardly need to be as small as the A7 type is.  Most Canon users would accept it without question even in current EF mount form, whereas they now must be dallying with the thought of an A7 type and an EF adapter.  Size cannot be a real consideration there considering that a half decent EF lens comes with its own size burden, the FE lenses also.

As other manufacturers iin due course "invent" their own take on FF sensor mirrorless then Sony might struggle a bit.

I see the A7 type as an amazing achievement by technical geeks who have not a lot of appreciation of how to build a good user interface.  I was surprised at just how many user interface flaws that the A7r when I had a chance to handle one properly.  If Sony had made these wonders that were also a delight to use then their progress might have been closer to unstoppable.

Right at the moment those buying into the A7 type are completely carried away by the thought that such a large sensor can be built into such a small body and obviously the results reflect well on this technical tour de force.

However a more user friendly similarly specified camera from one or more of the opposition companies is bound to throw a big challenge to Sony to think harder on the fact that photography is supposed to be an intuitive pleasure and the less learning required and awkwardness of use in your camera  the more pleasant the camera must be to own and use.  Consider a whole range of controls recessed in a ledge on the back of the camera - the first thing I noticed - what had the designers been drinking when they designed this?  That is a very elementary design error  that even one of my grandaughters would not have made. Consider the tractor like ratchet on the EV wheel, or even why the wheel has to be so large or even exist at all - what was really wrong with the quick simple, easily used, and very visual EV control on the NEX6?  It seems like a swipe for the retro-look market on a camera that is far from retro.  People must like great big tractor knobs on top of their cameras even if the rest of the controls are then thrown about like crazy to make room for it.  Then the front wheel sitting in an angled ledge that forces the finger to run around its edge?  The placement of the shutter button on the NEX6 is about perfect - but this is abandoned on the A7 type - why?

Of course if all you wanted was a Sony and that Sony had to be small and have a FF sensor and nothing else mattered much then the A7 type has to be just about perfect.

Right now the A7 type is without any serious challenger in its specification slot.  Methinks that the popularity of thhe dslr has not suffered in these parts and the plethora of models and long amortised R&D costs leave plenty of room for some pretty savage discounts if necessary.  Sony needs to get a lot of A7 type camera bodies out there to justify making FE lenses - look forward to some interesting price deals to come as Sony tries to get market share and the dslr guys try to keep it.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads