still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems

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n3eg
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to Richard Weisgrau, 6 months ago

Richard Weisgrau wrote:

I have what I call my 'grab and go' kit. A bag with enough gear to take on any job. The bag is  (12x7x6 inches) and fully loaded as in the photos below weighs a bit over 5 pounds. A comparable Nikon setup would weigh about double that and need a bag twice the size. I am a happy Lumix camper.  The photos follow.

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Richard Weisgrau
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I have something very similar to that with my E-PL5 kit, and it's only 9 1/2" long instead of 12".  Left side is my Oly 75-300, middle is the E-PL5 with 14-42 lens sideways with camera stored vertically, and right side is Oly 40-150 on top of 0.6x wide converter on top of x6 and x10 close up filters.  Top zip compartment has batteries and SD cards, side zip compartment has flash/strap/polarizer/manual/USB cord.  Amazing how much small stuff you can cram into a bag.

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It ain't easy being me, but someone's gotta do it.

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ryan2007
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to robonrome, 6 months ago

Do concentrate on the sensor size. Buy the camera that get the shot. If you need two systems because you have a one off action shot that m43 can't do keep that DSLR and lens.

Their is also a point you have to let that shot go and move on to the next or buy a lens in the chosen system to do what you need.

Their is always a solution even when the solution is nothing.

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Bill Wallace
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Re: You have to wait for the FF fairy to wither and die
In reply to Bob Tullis, 6 months ago

Pretty much the same as Bob here. I had Nikon D700 with plenty of glass and would tote m4/3 and ff all the time using my em5 almost exclusively. Around town I would go all m4/3 but on trips to the Southwest I'd bring both. Shot a lot of the same scenes with both and in blind tests I'd almost always pick the micro shot for some reason. I toted both systems for over a year and a month ago purged the ff gear.

Now I do toss around getting a crop camera and a good long lens for wildlife, or I could just get a 50-200 since I now have the em1.

Time will tell for you as it has for many of us.

Bill

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SenicPhoto
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to robonrome, 6 months ago

Exactly on the same boat as you. Since I got Panasonic GH3, my 5D MII sits in the dark corner with other L lenses. I honestly didn't expect GH3 will replace FF in so many different shooting situations. For me, Panasonic is way easier to use, carry and most importantly the picture quality doesn't fall too far behind Canon. I spent a good chunk of money on 12-35, 35-100, 7-14, Olympus 45 and 40-150 and a few manual lenses. All of them shine on GH3 in the same fashion as high quality red stripe glass compliments Canon 1Ds MIII and 5D MII.

One thing I found quite amazing is a GH3's video quality. This is a new area of exploration for me ... I want to dig deeper into film making and post production. Once again, GH3 IMHO is far superior to 5DM3 and some other Nikon FF I've tried in the past. From this perspective, I know I made a right choice.

I get paid for some my work therefore it's hard justifying few thousands of dollars’ worth of equipment laying around, not being used ... I guess it's only matter of time when I'll have a grand Canon sale. I might keep some equipment but the reason is not FF superiority but simply a silly nostalgic value...

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SonyForNow
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to SenicPhoto, 6 months ago

One way to arrive at a decision about letting stuff go (G.A.S.) is if the Canon stuff was lost, stolen, destroyed in a fire...would you want to replace it?

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Photomonkey
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to robonrome, 6 months ago

I shoot for a living with Canon 5DmkIIIs. They can produce gorgeous images however I find that for sports,event, and wedding photography they produce files that vary more than my Panasonic G6.

For slower commercial and architectural work the Canons are hard to beat but when the lighting conditions change quickly they make auto exposure errors like no tomorrow. This is consistent with my experience with all metering systems irrespective of marketing hype. Manual exposure reduces the variability but slows me down as I need to chimp.

The G6 allows me to compensate BEFORE the exposure and thus get a much higher yield of images not to mention its fast and super accurate AF.

What I notice is that my G6 is fast, sharp and unobtrusive with stellar IQ.
The shortcomings are that its high ISO performance falls off a lot in comparison to the Canons and the battery life is short-ish.

As I am getting older I am much less interested in carrying a crap-ton of gear to a job and even less interested in lots of PP.

My only other comment is to second everything Richard Weisgrau said.

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robonrome
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to SonyForNow, 6 months ago

One way to arrive at a decision about letting stuff go (G.A.S.) is if the Canon stuff was lost, stolen, destroyed in a fire...would you want to replace it?

This is good...and i think my answer would be no.

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robonrome
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to Photomonkey, 6 months ago

I shoot for a living with Canon 5DmkIIIs. They can produce gorgeous images however I find that for sports,event, and wedding photography they produce files that vary more than my Panasonic G6.

For slower commercial and architectural work the Canons are hard to beat but when the lighting conditions change quickly they make auto exposure errors like no tomorrow. This is consistent with my experience with all metering systems irrespective of marketing hype. Manual exposure reduces the variability but slows me down as I need to chimp.

The G6 allows me to compensate BEFORE the exposure and thus get a much higher yield of images not to mention its fast and super accurate AF.

What I notice is that my G6 is fast, sharp and unobtrusive with stellar IQ.
The shortcomings are that its high ISO performance falls off a lot in comparison to the Canons and the battery life is short-ish.

As I am getting older I am much less interested in carrying a crap-ton of gear to a job and even less interested in lots of PP.

My only other comment is to second everything Richard Weisgrau said.

Well said. And its much as ive concluded that i prefer the gh3 in many situations npt so much because its as good iq but because it is easier to use and get better results with... the live histogram aiding exposure accuracy is a good example.

Ive also taken a lot from what Richard has said... noteably to think less about noise and more about impact...

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Kim Letkeman
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yawn ....
In reply to robonrome, 6 months ago

So the bottom line is that you obviously don't need the money (wallet sounds rather fat to me) so who does it hurt if you pull the darned thing out once in a while to shoot your son surfing?

Answer: no one.

The only real question is why you are not shooting Nikon for action? Sounds like bad judgement on top of rampant angst.

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robonrome
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Re: You have to wait for the FF fairy to wither and die
In reply to Bob Tullis, 6 months ago

I know what you mean - you have the holy grail of systems most enthusiasts would covet, but don't want to pick it up as much as you do m4/3.   It took me a year of having a FF Canon kit go unused until I could let it go.  The tell tale was one day I brought out both systems, to do a side by side comparison one more time. . .  but each time I'd stop to do a study I looked at the Canon kit and decided it would stay in the bag, in the car.

Had the same quandary about IQ, but was determined to find a way to make compelling photos w/o the advantage of a FF sensor.   Sort of like, "Oh, yea?  We'll see about that!"   Not sure who I was addressing. . . it must have been the Oly fairy on one shoulder talking to the Canon fairy on the other. [shrug]

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Thanks bob, i reckon the danged FF would have keeled over by now except for the fact there is no Pany fairy to tell it off...there i said it... i dont believe in the Pany fairy

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Midwest
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Re: For the sake of brevity
In reply to SaltLakeGuy, 6 months ago

SaltLakeGuy wrote:

As I entered my 60's this old former wedding, portrait and landscape photographer began to tire of lugging around the FF gear. At one point, before my shoulder surgeries, I had a 50lb bad full of pro Nikon or Canon bodies, pro lenses and dual flashes and accessories I would take around the country with me in a large backpack as I traveled. I also did catalog/product photography as well.

I totally respect your choice to use a smaller camera if that works for you.

But really, did you need to carry 50 pounds of camera equipment along with you when you traveled? Why on Earth would you? A DSLR and 3, possibly 4 lenses would have weighed a very small fraction that much. It sounds to me like you were bringing along every last bit of photo equipment you had. I wouldn't BUY that much let alone feel the need to lug it everywhere with me.

To a degree, I think you kinda made your own problem with that.

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Midwest
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Re: yawn ....
In reply to Kim Letkeman, 6 months ago

Kim Letkeman wrote:

So the bottom line is that you obviously don't need the money (wallet sounds rather fat to me) so who does it hurt if you pull the darned thing out once in a while to shoot your son surfing?

Answer: no one.

The only real question is why you are not shooting Nikon for action? Sounds like bad judgement on top of rampant angst.

Where is the 5D3 deficient for shooting action?

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topstuff
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Re: valid points
In reply to Geodesiq, 6 months ago

Geodesiq wrote:

Steve_ wrote:

It's true that the best of the m43 sensors, typified by the GH3 and 16mp Olys, are noisy compared to the better full frame and even APS-C solutions.

The difference is insignificant and imperceptible in the vast majority of cases from everything I've seen & read.

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Every picture tells a story

Absolutely 100% not the case I'm afraid, unless you compare snaps taken in good light and low ISO and don't pixel peep.

But if you shoot in the more extreme levels of ISO, or you find you want to shoot high shutter speeds in low light, or you want to have creamy out of focus areas when shooting birds for example, then FF is noticeably superior.

MFT is great for general photography in average light.  Go beyond these parameters and the IQ deteriorates quite quickly, just when FF is hitting its stride.

I spend hours sitting in front of a Mac working on photo files all day.  Trust me, there IS a difference.

Having said that, I don't think the difference matters to 90% of people.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: yawn ....
In reply to Midwest, 6 months ago

Midwest wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

So the bottom line is that you obviously don't need the money (wallet sounds rather fat to me) so who does it hurt if you pull the darned thing out once in a while to shoot your son surfing?

Answer: no one.

The only real question is why you are not shooting Nikon for action? Sounds like bad judgement on top of rampant angst.

Where is the 5D3 deficient for shooting action?

I guess I'm wrong ... according to this penetrating analysis it is virtually a tie with the D4 ...

http://versus.com/en/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-vs-nikon-d4

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topstuff
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No point in trying an EM-1
In reply to Kim Letkeman, 6 months ago

Really,the improvement over the GH3 is not that great.  In normal light I doubt you will see a difference.  And in low light neither are nearly as good as FF.

There is probably only one range of cameras that offer light weight with nearly FF quality -the Fuji X cameras.

The latest Fuji XE 2 has pretty decent AF - not that far behind the EM-1, but the files it produces are a definite step up from MFT.

honestly, if you shoot standard lenses and seldom use telephoto or wide, a little fixed lens X100s is probably all the camera most people ever need.

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Lab D
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Sorry, no it doesn't
In reply to topstuff, 6 months ago

topstuff wrote:

Really,the improvement over the GH3 is not that great. In normal light I doubt you will see a difference. And in low light neither are nearly as good as FF.

There is probably only one range of cameras that offer light weight with nearly FF quality -the Fuji X cameras.

The latest Fuji XE 2 has pretty decent AF - not that far behind the EM-1, but the files it produces are a definite step up from MFT.

Sorry, but you must be confused. Even DPR says, " the Fujifilm X-E2 is also worth considering - especially if you're looking to shoot with legacy lenses. But, despite a couple of flaws - and its being over a year old - the OM-D E-M5 remains atop the mid-range mirrorless pack."

Wow, the XE 2 can't even compete with the almost 2 year old EM5.

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Bob Tullis
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Re: You have to wait for the FF fairy to wither and die
In reply to robonrome, 6 months ago

robonrome wrote:

I know what you mean - you have the holy grail of systems most enthusiasts would covet, but don't want to pick it up as much as you do m4/3. It took me a year of having a FF Canon kit go unused until I could let it go. The tell tale was one day I brought out both systems, to do a side by side comparison one more time. . . but each time I'd stop to do a study I looked at the Canon kit and decided it would stay in the bag, in the car.

Had the same quandary about IQ, but was determined to find a way to make compelling photos w/o the advantage of a FF sensor. Sort of like, "Oh, yea? We'll see about that!" Not sure who I was addressing. . . it must have been the Oly fairy on one shoulder talking to the Canon fairy on the other. [shrug]

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Thanks bob, i reckon the danged FF would have keeled over by now except for the fact there is no Pany fairy to tell it off...there i said it... i dont believe in the Pany fairy

Well. . . there's your problem right there.  

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Ben O Connor
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Re: still torn between m43 and Full Frame systems
In reply to robonrome, 6 months ago

If you are hobbyist and tight budget: Stay/invest in Micro 43

If you are pro with a freetime: Keep your D800E and FX lenses, and buy a Fx-NEX adaptor and pull the trigger for Sony A7r

Just my own useless personal way of thinking.

Ben

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topstuff
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Re: Sorry, no it doesn't
In reply to Lab D, 6 months ago

Lab D wrote:

topstuff wrote:

Really,the improvement over the GH3 is not that great. In normal light I doubt you will see a difference. And in low light neither are nearly as good as FF.

There is probably only one range of cameras that offer light weight with nearly FF quality -the Fuji X cameras.

The latest Fuji XE 2 has pretty decent AF - not that far behind the EM-1, but the files it produces are a definite step up from MFT.

Sorry, but you must be confused. Even DPR says, " the Fujifilm X-E2 is also worth considering - especially if you're looking to shoot with legacy lenses. But, despite a couple of flaws - and its being over a year old - the OM-D E-M5 remains atop the mid-range mirrorless pack."

Wow, the XE 2 can't even compete with the almost 2 year old EM5.

I own neither system.  I don't have to justify my ownership decisions as you seem compelled to do. And I cannot be offended by any allegiance to different brands of inanimate consumer photo electronics that will be out of date junk in a few years anyway.

Lets talk facts here.  At low ,normal ISO there really isn't any difference.

But at the more extreme end, shooting high ISO for example, the Fujis are definitely better.  Only the Fuji and possibly the AA filter-less Pentax K3, are close to FF quality.

The OP started this thread because he could see that MFT was not,ultimately , on a par with FF if absolute IQ was what mattered.  The EM-1 is a fantastic camera but it has NOT changed this situation.

Plenty of Canon 5D2/3 shooters are using the Fujis and report that the images are as good as the FF Canons. And lots of pro stock agencies are taking Fuji files where before they wanted FF.

They are right.  I look at photo files every day in my work.  And trust me, while for 90% of situations the EM-1 is good enough, there will be times, perhaps that low light portrait where the shooter wants to shoot wide open and crank up the ISO, when it is obvious that FF ( and you can include Fuji X in this too ) are a step up.

The EM-1 is great, but it's only got 16mp and a little sensor. it can only achieve so much.

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robonrome
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Re: Sorry, no it doesn't
In reply to topstuff, 6 months ago

Lab D wrote:

topstuff wrote:

Really,the improvement over the GH3 is not that great. In normal light I doubt you will see a difference. And in low light neither are nearly as good as FF.

There is probably only one range of cameras that offer light weight with nearly FF quality -the Fuji X cameras.

The latest Fuji XE 2 has pretty decent AF - not that far behind the EM-1, but the files it produces are a definite step up from MFT.

Sorry, but you must be confused. Even DPR says, " the Fujifilm X-E2 is also worth considering - especially if you're looking to shoot with legacy lenses. But, despite a couple of flaws - and its being over a year old - the OM-D E-M5 remains atop the mid-range mirrorless pack."

Wow, the XE 2 can't even compete with the almost 2 year old EM5.

I own neither system.  I don't have to justify my ownership decisions as you seem compelled to do. And I cannot be offended by any allegiance to different brands of inanimate consumer photo electronics that will be out of date junk in a few years anyway.

Lets talk facts here.  At low ,normal ISO there really isn't any difference.

But at the more extreme end, shooting high ISO for example, the Fujis are definitely better.  Only the Fuji and possibly the AA filter-less Pentax K3, are close to FF quality.

The OP started this thread because he could see that MFT was not,ultimately , on a par with FF if absolute IQ was what mattered.  The EM-1 is a fantastic camera but it has NOT changed this situation.

Plenty of Canon 5D2/3 shooters are using the Fujis and report that the images are as good as the FF Canons. And lots of pro stock agencies are taking Fuji files where before they wanted FF.

They are right.  I look at photo files every day in my work.  And trust me, while for 90% of situations the EM-1 is good enough, there will be times, perhaps that low light portrait where the shooter wants to shoot wide open and crank up the ISO, when it is obvious that FF ( and you can include Fuji X in this too ) are a step up.

The EM-1 is great, but it's only got 16mp and a little sensor. it can only achieve so much.

As OP i'd like to clarify that while yes in part i started this thread because i can see m43 doesnt quite match my FF kit on IQ in some situations, my main point was i am prefering m43 and especially the GH3 for all the form and functional/feature reasons i listed...its simply a better/easier camera to use. You forget its there and can concentrate on photography...i wish i could say same for 5d3 but cant.

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