Are Full Frame SLRs Obsolete?

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
The Davinator
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Re: Not for now. Here's a comparison.
In reply to JackM, 11 months ago

JackM wrote:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52873398

FF will be obsolete only when such comparisons show no difference. 100% view matters for some applications.

Those samples are out of camera jpgs.  I ran a series from raws a while back in a test.  The result, 3200 iso on both in a 16x24 were pretty much identical.  100% views for these cameras matter in prints 20x30 and larger.  So, unless you sell a mountain of 20x30 prints done at 6400 iso and up, it won't matter.

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JackM
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Re: Not for now. Here's a comparison.
In reply to The Davinator, 11 months ago

Dave Luttmann wrote:

JackM wrote:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52873398

FF will be obsolete only when such comparisons show no difference. 100% view matters for some applications.

Those samples are out of camera jpgs. I ran a series from raws a while back in a test. The result, 3200 iso on both in a 16x24 were pretty much identical. 100% views for these cameras matter in prints 20x30 and larger. So, unless you sell a mountain of 20x30 prints done at 6400 iso and up, it won't matter.

True, but that still doesn't make FF obsolete.  I like having that last 1% of IQ when I want to print big or crop, and I do both.  Biggest to date is a 72" wide canvas from a single 5D3 image.  It wasn't my idea and I wouldn't have thought it would work, but it came out surprisingly well.  You can get very close to it and it holds up.  I would have one in my home.

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TheEngineer
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Re: full frame dslr makers are nearly obsolete
In reply to loafer, 11 months ago

loafer wrote:

M4/3 - only 2 players - and no one has joined the party since the format was started.

With Olympus, Panasonic, Kodak and Blackmagic there are 4 players.

And all m43 lenses are fully compatible with their cameras.

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Flying Fish
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If only APS-C had good lenses....
In reply to Colin Smith1, 11 months ago

Why can't Canon make a smaller, lighter, less-expensive 500 f/4 or even a 600 f/4 for my 7D?  I think if Canon did that, or Nikon, maybe even both, then the appeal of FF cameras would go way down because of the tremendous appeal of lighter and less-expensive lenses for the APS-C cameras.  But almost all the good lenses--not all, please don't jump on me--are designed for FF.  To name a few from Canon that have no APS-C equivalent:  300 f/2.8 and f/4L; 70-200 f/2.8 and f/4L; 400 f/5.6L; 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L; all the super-teles, all the macros; and so on and on.

FF

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TheMeister
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Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to Colin Smith1, 11 months ago

I personally never even bothered with the whole crop sensor thing.

I went straight from 35mm film to a FF.

For example Canons point and shoots make nice pictures but obviously not professionally.

Its really very simple:

There is no advantage to crop sensors whatsoever. They have always been a technical/budget compromise.

People don't like to hear this because they started to invest in crop lenses. You can't really use a real lens properly on a crop.

Manufacturers used crop equipment to provide good digital quality and make money which is fair enough, but 35mm has been the standard since the start of photo.

Physics dictate that lenses need to weigh a certain amount, so you can mostly just decrease body weight.

I like mirror less systems and a lot of cameras might drop the mirror system at some point but a lot of pros will still want a real viewfinder. So, hell no! FF DSLRS are certainly not obsolete. Its the other way around. They will start to put FF in cheaper cameras like they are already doing.

People who think this don't have a clue about what they are talking or are simply trying to get you to buy crop-junk.

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loafer
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Re: full frame dslr makers are nearly obsolete
In reply to TheEngineer, 11 months ago

Blackmagic makes a FF also - perhaps?  And there may be a few more FF players in the video area.

But I think that actual 4/3 is obsolete.  It has been replaced by micro 4/3.

So the SLR is really gone from that particular format - will is dissappear from the others?

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JackM
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Re: If only APS-C had good lenses....
In reply to Flying Fish, 11 months ago

Flying Fish wrote:

Why can't Canon make a smaller, lighter, less-expensive 500 f/4 or even a 600 f/4 for my 7D? I think if Canon did that, or Nikon, maybe even both, then the appeal of FF cameras would go way down because of the tremendous appeal of lighter and less-expensive lenses for the APS-C cameras. But almost all the good lenses--not all, please don't jump on me--are designed for FF. To name a few from Canon that have no APS-C equivalent: 300 f/2.8 and f/4L; 70-200 f/2.8 and f/4L; 400 f/5.6L; 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L; all the super-teles, all the macros; and so on and on.

There would be no point.  Look at the 17-55/2.8IS, an excellent lens, designed only for APS-C.  For all practical purposes, it is nearly as big and heavy as the 24-70/2.8.

Exacerbating this problem is that APS-C SLRs still have a FF flange distance, so the lens is further from the sensor than it needs to be, so I imagine that also makes them bigger.  And that is never going to change for Canon or Nikon.  I suppose some other company (Pentax?) could bid farewell to the idea of ever going FF and invent a new mount and system that was only APS-C, with a shorter flange distance, but I don't see that happening.  The market would be pretty small - people who really want both a smaller camera AND an optical TTL viewfinder.

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Erik Magnuson
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Telephotos are the same size regardless
In reply to Flying Fish, 11 months ago

Flying Fish wrote:

Why can't Canon make a smaller, lighter, less-expensive 500 f/4 or even a 600 f/4 for my 7D?

Because telephotos don't scale that much with sensor size. At most the metal tube might be slihtly slimmer at the mount end.  500mm and f/4 are physical constraints - unless you use diffractive optics or folded optics, it's gonna be about the same length and f/4 means the front element is going to be about the same size. Now if you mean you want a smaller, lighter lens with the same FOV as 500mm on FF and f/4, then Canon already makes it -- it's called the 300mm f/4.

Olympus made a 300mm f/2.8 for 4/3 - and guess what? It's the essentially same size as the Canon 300mm f/2.8 even though it's for a sensor 1/4 the size.

100-400 f/4.5-5.6L; all the super-teles, all the macros; and so on and on.

See above - the lenses you want are constrained by physics. There is one macro Canon makes smaller for APS-C - the 60mm EF-S macro is equiv to the 100mm macro but nothing else would be smaller.

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mermaidkiller
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Re: Telephotos are the same size regardless
In reply to Erik Magnuson, 11 months ago

Why can't Canon make a smaller, lighter, less-expensi

See above - the lenses you want are constrained by physics. There is one macro Canon makes smaller for APS-C - the 60mm EF-S macro is equiv to the 100mm macro but nothing else would be smaller.

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Erik

The Canon 50mm f/2.5 'compact macro' is also a small and compact lens.  I have this lens and works fine on my 6d.

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NancyP
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to TheMeister, 11 months ago

Focal length limited applications still benefit from the greater pixel density of APS-C. Example: bird photography. Large-field sports photography. I can get some pretty decent photos with an APS-C DSLR (60D) and 400mm f/5.6L. Would I like more focal length? Does the sun rise in the East? Realistically, those who don't have the ginormous 10,000.00+ lenses are likely better off with 400mm f/5.6L (or 100-400) on an APS-C camera, not a FF camera.

Also, my compacts are  Sigma DP2M and DP3M APS-C Foveon sensor cameras. Great landscape cameras, fabulous detail and color subtlety.

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The Davinator
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to TheMeister, 11 months ago

You FF is a crop sensor.  Guess you missed that.

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: Telephotos are the same size regardless
In reply to mermaidkiller, 11 months ago

mermaidkiller wrote:

The Canon 50mm f/2.5 'compact macro' is also a small and compact lens. I have this lens and works fine on my 6d.

I have this lens too (bought in 1992!)  But when you add the Life-Size-Converter to get 1-1, it's no longer compact.

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TheMeister
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to The Davinator, 11 months ago

Dave Luttmann wrote:

You FF is a crop sensor. Guess you missed that.

My Full Frame Sensor is a crop sensor? Can you explain?

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TheMeister
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to NancyP, 11 months ago

NancyP wrote:

Focal length limited applications still benefit from the greater pixel density of APS-C. Example: bird photography. Large-field sports photography. I can get some pretty decent photos with an APS-C DSLR (60D) and 400mm f/5.6L. Would I like more focal length? Does the sun rise in the East? Realistically, those who don't have the ginormous 10,000.00+ lenses are likely better off with 400mm f/5.6L (or 100-400) on an APS-C camera, not a FF camera.

Also, my compacts are Sigma DP2M and DP3M APS-C Foveon sensor cameras. Great landscape cameras, fabulous detail and color subtlety.

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NancyP

I own a Canon Power shot as a second little camera. I love it and it takes nice quick pics.

You are right with the price of crop lenses. Like i wrote: budget is an argument. For now it is!

but sooner or later full frame will get cheaper. Megpix will get more. Look at the Nikon D800 for example.

use it with a dx lens and you still get awesome pixeldensity.

now thats the future and thats why crop sensor cameras will certainly become obsolete.

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Just another Canon shooter
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to NancyP, 11 months ago

NancyP wrote:

Focal length limited applications still benefit from the greater pixel density of APS-C. Example: bird photography. Large-field sports photography. I can get some pretty decent photos with an APS-C DSLR (60D) and 400mm f/5.6L.

The 400/5.6 is not a particularly sharp lens. On a crop camera, even less so. The increased pixel density does not help you so much then. At 640mm equivalent, you will have some camera shake, even on a tripod, and loss of resolution due to haze. All those factors would dominate the resolution, not the pixel density.

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saralecaire
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Re: Are Full Frame SLRs Obsolete?
In reply to Colin Smith1, 11 months ago

What's the point to posts like these?

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socode
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to The Davinator, 11 months ago

No, 35mm is not a cropped format in this context.

Maybe you mean that 35mm film was itself a small format based off movie film, but this happened before either of us were buying cameras.

Canon and Nikon released non-full frame DSLRs onto their existing 35mm systems, and that is what we speak of APS-C being "cropped" relative to. They did this because of non-linearly higher cost of producing larger digital sensors, and it left those cameras inadequate relative to the lenses, viewfinder accessories, and other bodies that had been carefully designed and produced to provide a full-frame system.

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TheMeister
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to socode, 11 months ago

socode wrote:

No, 35mm is not a cropped format in this context.

Maybe you mean that 35mm film was itself a small format based off movie film, but this happened before either of us were buying cameras.

Canon and Nikon released non-full frame DSLRs onto their existing 35mm systems, and that is what we speak of APS-C being "cropped" relative to. They did this because of non-linearly higher cost of producing larger digital sensors, and it left those cameras inadequate relative to the lenses, viewfinder accessories, and other bodies that had been carefully designed and produced to provide a full-frame system.

Thank you for the nice explanation.
In fact there were even cropped film formats (relativ to the 35mm)100 hundred years ago, very similar to todays APS-C.
They came back to 35mm because it feels right and all proper lenses are designed to work with them.
The OP is claiming that this budget compromisse: aps-c is making the 35mm obsolete and thats just nonsense.

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Scott Larson
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to TheMeister, 11 months ago

TheMeister wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

You FF is a crop sensor. Guess you missed that.

My Full Frame Sensor is a crop sensor? Can you explain?

The lens projects a circular image. Your "full frame" sensor crops an arbitrarily shaped rectangle out of that circular image. Therefore if your photos aren't circular you're not using your lenses to their full potential.

"Crop" sensors simply crop a slightly smaller rectangle out of the circular image in exactly the same way.

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TheMeister
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Re: Crop sensors are certainly obsolete
In reply to Scott Larson, 11 months ago

Scott Larson wrote:

TheMeister wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

You FF is a crop sensor. Guess you missed that.

My Full Frame Sensor is a crop sensor? Can you explain?

The lens projects a circular image. Your "full frame" sensor crops an arbitrarily shaped rectangle out of that circular image. Therefore if your photos aren't circular you're not using your lenses to their full potential.

"Crop" sensors simply crop a slightly smaller rectangle out of the circular image in exactly the same way.

The lens also crops because it doesnt portrait everything in front or around you. Your life is a cropped version of the eternity of the universe....if you wanna go there.

In the world of photography we refere to a sensor that is smaller than the standard 36x26mm as a crop sensor. Using the circular image directly from the lense is and never has been a standard. Lensmakers dont think of people using the circular image when they design a lens.

Apc-s is not "slightly" smaller then a FF sensor. Its significantly smaller.
Tiny sensors weirdly turn wider angled lenses into portrait lenses.
The smaller the sensor - the more the image distortion and loss of light.

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