Are Full Frame SLRs Obsolete?

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: Are Full Frame SLRs Obsolete?
In reply to qianp2k, 6 months ago

qianp2k wrote:

At sides of NFL or soon the new Winter Olympic games, there are ocean of Full Frame DSLRs namely 1DX and D4. I don't see mirrorless cameras in any foreseen future can replace them. I still see all kinds of other PJs are still using FF DSLRs. ML FF cameras are good option in landscape, studio and portrait photography however.

You don't see Leicas, medium format, or 4x5 either.  Doesn't mean they are inferior....it means the person using them has the knowledge and experience to choose the right tool for the job....instead of thinking there is only one tool for every job.  That is why some of us use a number of formats.

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: Are APS-C SLRs Obsolete?
In reply to SonyForNow, 6 months ago

SonyForNow wrote:

People will eventually buy FF for best image quality, low ISO, and its lens & camera selection. The APS-C film format died a quiet death and was unnecessarily resurrected to digital for price reasons. The smaller sensors in point & shoots moved to cell phones. Micro 4/3rds provides aps-c image quality with smaller lenses and camera bodies.

Low iso?  The lens selection for aps-c is far greater than FF.  Interesting....aps-c isnt as good as FF....but m43 matches aps-c?  Anything else?

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: True
In reply to qianp2k, 6 months ago

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

True for many comparisons. Now try the same comparison of a scene requiring ISO 3200 and a 50% crop

Not true even compared at low ISOs at full size if we compare 24mp D7100/NEX-7 no mention even smaller mFT with D610 or 22mp 5D3 at the same 24mp full size with respective lenses in the same AOV. Even at ISO 100, the difference is still noticeable.

My sample at low iso and large print size shows that it is true.

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Timbukto
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Re: Are Full Frame SLRs Obsolete?
In reply to ultimitsu, 6 months ago

ultimitsu wrote:

3, large aperture long lenses defeat m43 size advantage.

Does not have to be that long. Look at the Pana 42.5 1.2.

http://photorumors.com/2013/11/07/the-upcoming-leica-dg-nocticron-425mm-f1-2-asph-mft-lens-is-huge/

This is something easily done on FF lenses either the Canon 85mm 1.8 or Nikon 85mm 1.8G.  On FF camera's these lenses are absolutely perfectly balanced and manageable.  Both optically good.  The equivalent DOF of the 42.5 is 2.4, and by f2.4 both Canon and Nikon are tack sharp, so it sets a high bar for MFT lenses to follow wide open.

I've also tried the 45mm 1.8...great lens and usually better than 50mm's are for APS-C, but again at f 3.6, its very easy for Canon and Nikon to be sharp edge to edge and stellar stopped down.  I've been through many copies of the 45 and they had slight centering issues.

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In reply to ultimitsu, 6 months ago

405 grams weight making it heavier than either Canikon equivalent.  Not likely to outresolve either with its 16Mp sensor.

Smaller sensors are fine with lenses geared to the system, but ultra-fasts on smaller sensors is not so cost effective or any better in handling or portability.

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Paul B Jones
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Re: FF Still Useful
In reply to Dave Luttmann, 6 months ago

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Paul B Jones wrote:

I plan to hang on to mine for as long as it makes the mirrorless crowd feel inadequate.

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Guess again.

They will always feel inadequate no matter what gear they own?

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Colin Smith1
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Re: Are Full Frame SLRs Obsolete?
In reply to dave, 6 months ago

dave wrote:

As a wildlife photographer you have heavy telephoto lenses to lug around. The slight difference in weight of a camera body is immaterial. Besides the large bright FF view finder is much better with those slow teles.

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As others have pointed out, there are limitations for producing large, fast super telephotos for micro 4/3s and mirrorless cameras.  I am very satisfied with the tools I have now for wildlife.  The discussion on this topic has convinced me to continue to use what I have, even given the weight.  I purchased a rolling camera case that is small enough for airline carry on, and sold my old 500F4 L for the newer, lighter version.  I carry the 500 in a small back pack.  I also appreciate the suggestion to leave some lenses at home.  I am not as technical as many of you, and your responses have been very educational for me.  Thanks!

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Forrest
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History says no.
In reply to Colin Smith1, 6 months ago

Did medium and large format vanish when APS came out?

From what I can see, the trend seems to be the opposite of what luma land is suggesting. Full frame is getting more and more affordable, and more people are using it. Some want better quality, others want to use the lenses they've had for years, other people are realizing that they can make photos that they've never been able to shoot before.

I have a ~10 year old 1D mark 2 and I've had a couple of new Sony point and shoots.  The Sony cameras are very convenient, they fit in my pocket, and come along for road bike rides and rock climbs, when I don't want to take an SLR.  The 1D has 8 million pixels, the Sony cameras both had 16.  The 1D trounces them in terms of quality.  It's not a fair fight (bigger sensor, better lenses, wildly different classes), but it goes to show that things are more complicated than the numbers would predict.

Here's something I shot last July from a high camp in the North Cascades.  I used a 5D v3 and a 24 mm f/1.4 for this.  My buddy has been happy with his 4/3 system for years, but will probably get a 6D shortly to be able to do stuff like this.

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Camley
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Re: Erm no...
In reply to tinternaut, 6 months ago

+1

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mermaidkiller
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Re: Are Full Frame SLRs Obsolete?
In reply to borax, 6 months ago

Well, I don't think so. Yes it is already weird that the *shape* of a FF body has changed little since the launch of the Nikon F in 1959. Pentaprism, mirror box, even the mode dial (Av, Tv, B, etc.) has long been the same for most models.

But I guess that in the near future a Fullframe ILC and even compact will arrive (btw, Leica M9 is already a compact FF).

Heavy lenses (particularly long telephoto ones) which must be lugged around, are mostly heavy due to the amount of glass in it. E.g. a 400 / 2.8L contains more kilos of glass. Possibly nicer optics design (from the shorttube apochromatic refractor telescopes) will decrease weight. Telescopes of 100mm or more aperture f/5 (so 500+mm f/5 telephoto) with only three elements (TMB, Takahashi, Televue) have the same quality as 12 or more elements supertele L lenses and don't cost more, mostly less.

And when I don't want to carry my bulky SLR ? I have a cute little camera Powershot S100 which takes nice pictures and (HD) videos. Size of a smartphone but image quality is much better.

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Scott Larson
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Re: History says no.
In reply to Forrest, 6 months ago

Forrest wrote:

Did medium and large format vanish when APS came out?

The popularity of medium and large format started dropping as 35mm film improved. I think it's a similar situation with smaller sensors vs. 35mm sensors.

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mermaidkiller
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Re: History says no.
In reply to Scott Larson, 6 months ago

Scott Larson wrote:

Forrest wrote:

Did medium and large format vanish when APS came out?

The popularity of medium and large format started dropping as 35mm film improved. I think it's a similar situation with smaller sensors vs. 35mm sensors.

Because 35mm format was brutally expensive when the APS-C cameras arrived and kept expensive until the D600 and 6D arrived. And that did not happen with 35mm vs. large format. Large format cameras (professional grade such as Hasselblad or Mamiya, not the cheap Agfa Clack or box cameras) remained brutally expensive.

And most consumers don't care. Snapshots are just enough so cams like Kodak Disk were very popular with even smaller frame size. Like the cellphone cams with the matchhead sized sensors now.

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Midwest
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Re: History says no.
In reply to Scott Larson, 6 months ago

Scott Larson wrote:

Forrest wrote:

Did medium and large format vanish when APS came out?

The popularity of medium and large format started dropping as 35mm film improved. I think it's a similar situation with smaller sensors vs. 35mm sensors.

All this is based on the assumption that 'smaller is better' so therefore everyone wants smaller. Of course a camera that has to be trucked around would be too large, but really, for many of us, a DSLr is not so terribly big, and we like the handling and controls that the smaller cameras just do not offer.

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Peter Marchant
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Remember what Leica did to 6x6
In reply to Mako2011, 6 months ago

When Leica first put 35mm movie film in their “toy” cameras, all professionals and most amateurs chuckled uncontrollably. Relatively quickly the existing standard formats (6x6 and larger) disappeared apart from studio use for advertising photography, etc.

Smaller format digital cameras are now developed to such an extent that (I humbly suggest) full-frame cameras are only still here because crop cameras are still so ridiculously big! If someone (come on Canon) shrank crop SLRs and lenses in proportion to the format (as 35mm SLRs compared with 645 SLRs), it’s probably game over for full frame - except in the professional studio.

Nothing that is held up as a massive advantage of FF over crop isn’t also valid as an advantage of 645 over 35mm. Depth of field is often quoted, but who would ditch their FF and use 645 because DOF is so overwhelmingly important for a good photograph?

FF digital SLRs were late to the table, but I suspect they’ll be the first to leave, although (like film and medium format) a few diehards and studio professionals will continue with them. I’m happy to see that Canon continue to offer a film SLR. In 10 years I suspect they’ll still offer a big 35mm Digital SLR (alongside truly small crop SLRs) and it will sell in the same minute volumes as their film equivalent.

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Midwest
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Re: History says no.
In reply to mermaidkiller, 6 months ago

mermaidkiller wrote:

Scott Larson wrote:

Forrest wrote:

Did medium and large format vanish when APS came out?

The popularity of medium and large format started dropping as 35mm film improved. I think it's a similar situation with smaller sensors vs. 35mm sensors.

Because 35mm format was brutally expensive when the APS-C cameras arrived and kept expensive until the D600 and 6D arrived. And that did not happen with 35mm vs. large format. Large format cameras (professional grade such as Hasselblad or Mamiya, not the cheap Agfa Clack or box cameras) remained brutally expensive.

And most consumers don't care. Snapshots are just enough so cams like Kodak Disk were very popular with even smaller frame size. Like the cellphone cams with the matchhead sized sensors now.

Back in the late 70's Minolta brought out a couple of 110-film SLR cameras. I had one, in fact I bought another a couple years ago to put in my curio case. But for the fancy reflex viewfinder and the decent lens in a tiny package, it produced a negative that was about the size of a pinky nail. The difference in camera size did not compensate for the difference in IQ.

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: History says no.
In reply to Midwest, 6 months ago

LOL.  I had the Pentax 110 SLR.  I wish I kept it.  Oddly enough, I've been using 110 film for a Low Fidelity Landscape project I'm doing, alongside Zone Plate, Wet Plate Collodion and Holga.

Midwest wrote:

mermaidkiller wrote:

Scott Larson wrote:

Forrest wrote:

Did medium and large format vanish when APS came out?

The popularity of medium and large format started dropping as 35mm film improved. I think it's a similar situation with smaller sensors vs. 35mm sensors.

Because 35mm format was brutally expensive when the APS-C cameras arrived and kept expensive until the D600 and 6D arrived. And that did not happen with 35mm vs. large format. Large format cameras (professional grade such as Hasselblad or Mamiya, not the cheap Agfa Clack or box cameras) remained brutally expensive.

And most consumers don't care. Snapshots are just enough so cams like Kodak Disk were very popular with even smaller frame size. Like the cellphone cams with the matchhead sized sensors now.

Back in the late 70's Minolta brought out a couple of 110-film SLR cameras. I had one, in fact I bought another a couple years ago to put in my curio case. But for the fancy reflex viewfinder and the decent lens in a tiny package, it produced a negative that was about the size of a pinky nail. The difference in camera size did not compensate for the difference in IQ.

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Phil M Winder
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Re: History says no.
In reply to Midwest, 6 months ago

Midwest wrote:

mermaidkiller wrote:

Scott Larson wrote:

Forrest wrote:

Did medium and large format vanish when APS came out?

The popularity of medium and large format started dropping as 35mm film improved. I think it's a similar situation with smaller sensors vs. 35mm sensors.

Because 35mm format was brutally expensive when the APS-C cameras arrived and kept expensive until the D600 and 6D arrived. And that did not happen with 35mm vs. large format. Large format cameras (professional grade such as Hasselblad or Mamiya, not the cheap Agfa Clack or box cameras) remained brutally expensive.

And most consumers don't care. Snapshots are just enough so cams like Kodak Disk were very popular with even smaller frame size. Like the cellphone cams with the matchhead sized sensors now.

Back in the late 70's Minolta brought out a couple of 110-film SLR cameras. I had one, in fact I bought another a couple years ago to put in my curio case. But for the fancy reflex viewfinder and the decent lens in a tiny package, it produced a negative that was about the size of a pinky nail. The difference in camera size did not compensate for the difference in IQ.

I have fond memories of the Instamatic with 110, and those disposable flashcubes. It certainly did not replace my 35mm film SLR, but it was fun to use.  Another favorite during that time was the Minolta CLE, which was (and probably still is) one of the smallest and advanced 35mm film rangefinders.

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NancyP
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No - action shooters will want SLR optical view and fast AF
In reply to Colin Smith1, 6 months ago

Now, whether that will be in the FF or APS-C format will be another discussion. Mirrorless is a non-starter for action/ wildlife/ bird shooters due to the need for real-time tracking and for first-rate focus.

All that being said, I do shoot landscapes with compact cameras, the Sigma DP1/2/3 Merrills, and the quality level of the APS-C Foveon sensor is sensational, as long as one shoots at ISO 100-400.

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Forrest
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Yours is a better analogy.
In reply to mermaidkiller, 6 months ago
And most consumers don't care. Snapshots are just enough so cams like Kodak Disk were very popular with even smaller frame size. Like the cellphone cams with the matchhead sized sensors now.

You're right.  Cell phones all have cameras now, some of them even take good pictures.  And yet people are still buying dedicated cameras.  The SLR and P&S market both should be obsolete if the OP is correct.

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Caerolle
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Re: Larger sensors will retain their superiority, no matter how good smaller ones become
In reply to Midwest, 6 months ago

Midwest wrote:

If a smaller-sensor camera can do the job for someone and they want a camera like that, then they've got some to choose from and good for them I say. But I sure do wish the people who have made that choice would stop knocking on my door with their pamphlets, pushing their religion at me.

Yes, there is a saying that the only thing more obnoxious than person who is hard-core about smoker's rights is that same person who has decided that smoking is a bad thing. Sometimes I wonder if the anti-full-frame people are trying to convince themselves more than anything else, especially since a lot of them seem to be old dudes who can't handle the weight anymore, so moved to m4/3 in particular to get smaller, lighter systems. So, the capability is 'good-enough' for them (and the implication is, good enough for anyone who doesn't make large prints).

That is fine, I just don't understand why people don't just shoot what they want, and feel they need to go convince everyone else of what *they* should shoot. I certainly don't go smugly troll APS-C or m4/3 forums telling them their choices are stupid (which I don't think, anyhow). But it seems to be popular in those forums to post 'X format as good as full-frame!', 'full-frame is a marketing hoax played on suckers!' and such. Which is fine, but then they have to come here and make smug, sneering posts about what dupes we are for not using crop sensors and/or mirrorless.

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