D610 long-exposure noise

Started 7 months ago | Questions
juliancd38
New MemberPosts: 4
Like?
D610 long-exposure noise
7 months ago

Hi all,
I've been shooting with a D5000 for several years now, and consider myself relatively competent in terms of photography. I recently upgraded to the D610 and brought it on vacation with me—the dynamic range, resolution, and high-ISO clarity are obviously not even in competition with my old D5000.
However, I often do super long-exposure nightscapes, and my first few such images with the D610 seem extremely noisy. Here's an example:

A couple closer looks:

D610 + Nikkor 28 mm f/1.8 at f/8 and ISO 250 for 170 seconds. Shot RAW+jpeg, no editing done whatsoever. I understand that after 30 seconds, noise will increase incrementally, and much of it can be removed digitally. However, I've never seen such widespread large purple, red, green, etc. plus-sign-shaped artifacts on exposures just a few minutes long.
I've done many 15-minute+ exposures with my D5000 that seem appreciably cleaner than my first few D610 exposures between 2 and 5 minutes long. I don't know what to think, other than that I'm somewhat disappointed. I suppose my questions can be summed up as follows:

1) Is this a normal amount of noise for the D610 sensor?

2) I know there are endless subtle differences in characteristics between full frame and crop sensor cameras. Is increased LE noise (as a trade-off for reduced high ISO noise) one of them?

3) What can be done to reduce this?

4) I love my Nikon lenses, but it may be feasible for me to switch brands if the Canon 6D is truly better at handling high-ISO/long-exposures, as I've been told. Should I consider this option?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. You probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I were just posting these online, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable printing these to any significant size.

Julian

ANSWER:
This question has not been answered yet.
Canon EOS 6D Nikon D5000 Nikon D610
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
Zoso777
Regular MemberPosts: 232Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

Waiting for the more expert people reply ...but I've posted in another threat "complaining" about a photo taken with ISO 1600 and with too many noise to my taste...I've seen photos with a D7100, ISO 2200 no NR and almost no noise! Hope I'm a terrible photographer so I can understand this logic :/

BTW, here is the link to my post still waiting for more expert review:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52805689

-- hide signature --

Are you nervous? Go photographing!
www.sergiohegner.com.br

 Zoso777's gear list:Zoso777's gear list
Nikon D610 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Carsten Pauer 2
Senior MemberPosts: 2,970
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

3) What can be done to reduce this?

Make more Photos (32-64) and Stacking them together like an Astronomer.

Regards: Carsten

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Dave Sanders
Contributing MemberPosts: 760Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

Interesting...i'm guessing that you have the Long Exposure Noise Reduction set to off? That is a little strange...those are the results I'd expect to see from a D800 which has a known 'white spot' problem with long exposures and LENR off. I never saw results like that from either my D600 or RX1...indeed, they were/are the best I've ever seen. Was this after several other long expsoures in quick succession?

-- hide signature --

Dave Sanders

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ruud Wilschut
Regular MemberPosts: 321
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

I'm really surprised to see this kind of noise from the D610 sensor.
Do you have enabled Long Exposure Noise Reduction (LENR)? Thist kind of NR substracts an extra dark frame right after the first picture is taken. In fact the camera makes a second equally long exposure with the shutter closed. So making a long exposure of 2 minutes takes 4 minuter including the dark frame substraction process.

Long exposure noise reduction with dark frame substraction maps the sensor noise out of the image for a substantial quantity. It is good explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-frame_subtraction

Ruud

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
juliancd38
New MemberPosts: 4
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to Dave Sanders, 6 months ago

Dave Sanders wrote:

Interesting...i'm guessing that you have the Long Exposure Noise Reduction set to off? [...] Was this after several other long expsoures in quick succession?

-- hide signature --

Dave Sanders

Dave,

I do have LENR disabled to save time on reading to the card (I kept it disabled with my D5000 as well). It was only my third or fourth exposure over 30 seconds over the course of a half hour. Just casual artistic shooting, nothing extreme. Even the first several had the same issue.

I'm going to do some more testing tonight. I'd like to be able to come to a conclusion over the next couple days, in case I need to take some kind of action.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
juliancd38
New MemberPosts: 4
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

Here's another example, this time f/6.3 and ISO 500 for 125 seconds.

(full picture for reference: http://imgur.com/JZOQvDv)

Like I said, I know noise is inevitable with longer exposures, especially in dark/underexposed areas. I'm just concerned that what I'm encountering is too prominent.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
juliancd38
New MemberPosts: 4
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

I did some quick testing outside, and here are the results.

D610 with Nikkor 60 mm f/2.8 at f/14 and ISO 125 for 600 seconds. In-camera noise reduction disabled.

Closeups:

Just for the sake of comparison, here are similar crops from an almost identical exposure out of my D5000, same lens and settings.

Apologies for flooding with images, and I very much appreciate the responses and any guidance.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Svetoslav Popov
Junior MemberPosts: 45
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

Julian, the D800 sensor is known for this behavior - since i have my D800, nothing goes without long exposure NR. The D600/610 should be similar.

Try enabling LENR - the dots should go away.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
TOF guy
TOF guy MOD
Forum ProPosts: 10,577Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

julian wrote:

1) Is this a normal amount of noise for the D610 sensor?

I cannot test it for you since I have a D800. But long exposures have their own noise issues. This is because the sensor and / or associated electronics may heat up during the exposure. The heating induces noise.

2) I know there are endless subtle differences in characteristics between full frame and crop sensor cameras. Is increased LE noise (as a trade-off for reduced high ISO noise) one of them?

No, I don't think so.

3) What can be done to reduce this?

Dark frame subtraction. Use smaller exposures and stack them.

4) I love my Nikon lenses, but it may be feasible for me to switch brands if the Canon 6D is truly better at handling high-ISO/long-exposures, as I've been told. Should I consider this option?

ISO 250 (which you've used) is not high ISO. Your question really is : does the 6D performs better for LE (regardless of ISO). I doubt anybody here or in the Canon forum will have the real answer (meaning knowing somebody who has access to both cameras and has truly done the test).

Noise at high ISO is not related to noise due to long exposures at low ISO. You can't evaluate the performance of a camera for LE from the results at high ISO and vice versa. One key factor for noise during long exposure is how fast and how much heat is generated during the exposure, and how well it is dissipated out. As you can figure out yourself this has nothing to do with high ISO performance.

I suggest that you simply ask in the Canon Fx forum if anybody there has tried LE with a 6D and what are the results, preferentially backed up with picture sample(s).

-- hide signature --

Thierry - posted as regular forum member

 TOF guy's gear list:TOF guy's gear list
Nikon D800E Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Sigma 150mm F2.8 EX DG OS Macro HSM +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ruud Wilschut
Regular MemberPosts: 321
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

Long story short: enable Long Exposure Noise Reduction and you'll get rid of the dots!

It is there for a reason and this LENR works not the same way normal NR does so you don't have to worry about softer or blurred images or something like that. As I earlier said, LENR maps out the hot pixel noise from the sensor by comparing the exposure with an equal exposure with the shutter closed and substract the hot pixel data out of the final image. The only drawback is that it takes twice as long to get your images. But they are clean.

Ruud

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
wasserball
Senior MemberPosts: 2,355
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to Carsten Pauer 2, 6 months ago

The OP is not into astronomical photography, ie, he is not interested in seeing stars streaking across the sky.

Median stacking works for multi shots taken at high ISO, 25,600 where there are random noise.

The OP is taking a long exposure, noise that is mainly due to thermal heat, not from high ISO.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ernie Misner
Senior MemberPosts: 1,711Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to wasserball, 6 months ago

Were you in LV for an extended period before shooting?           +1 on the LENR.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Carsten Pauer 2
Senior MemberPosts: 2,970
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to wasserball, 6 months ago

The OP is not into astronomical photography, ie, he is not interested in seeing stars streaking across the sky.

Median stacking works for multi shots taken at high ISO, 25,600 where there are random noise.

The OP is taking a long exposure, noise that is mainly due to thermal heat, not from high ISO.

Think again...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
TH - NikonStrobist
Regular MemberPosts: 320Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to Ruud Wilschut, 6 months ago

Ruud Wilschut wrote:

I'm really surprised to see this kind of noise from the D610 sensor.
Do you have enabled Long Exposure Noise Reduction (LENR)? Thist kind of NR substracts an extra dark frame right after the first picture is taken. In fact the camera makes a second equally long exposure with the shutter closed. So making a long exposure of 2 minutes takes 4 minuter including the dark frame substraction process.

Long exposure noise reduction with dark frame substraction maps the sensor noise out of the image for a substantial quantity. It is good explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-frame_subtraction

Ruud

Fascinating.  I've been wondering what caused that doubling of time - I knew it was related to processing out the noise, but this clarifies what's actually causing it...
+1 for filling in a gap in my understanding and teaching me something.

-- hide signature --

“There are no bad pictures; that's just how your face looks sometimes.”
~ Abraham Lincoln

 TH - NikonStrobist's gear list:TH - NikonStrobist's gear list
Nikon D610
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
TH - NikonStrobist
Regular MemberPosts: 320Gear list
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

Very informative thread.

Where does one look for how quickly any given sensor cools?

In practical terms, assume an ambitious photographer wants to take a 3-frame bracketed spread of long exposures, perhaps for HDR or some other purpose.  If they are fired off as closely-spaced as possible (which means LENR is off) so there's minimal change -- in say, 3 exposures of 30 seconds each -- won't that third frame be a LOT noisier (assuming LENR is off) since it's in some sense the "final third" of what's effectively a 90-second exposure?

And even with LENR enabled that would be the fifth frame of a six-frame exposure, right?  LENR has been adding heat between each of the frames because it's creating a "dark" frame to process with.

-- hide signature --

“There are no bad pictures; that's just how your face looks sometimes.”
~ Abraham Lincoln

 TH - NikonStrobist's gear list:TH - NikonStrobist's gear list
Nikon D610
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ruud Wilschut
Regular MemberPosts: 321
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to TH - NikonStrobist, 6 months ago

TH - NikonStrobist wrote:

Ruud Wilschut wrote:

I'm really surprised to see this kind of noise from the D610 sensor.
Do you have enabled Long Exposure Noise Reduction (LENR)? Thist kind of NR substracts an extra dark frame right after the first picture is taken. In fact the camera makes a second equally long exposure with the shutter closed. So making a long exposure of 2 minutes takes 4 minuter including the dark frame substraction process.

Long exposure noise reduction with dark frame substraction maps the sensor noise out of the image for a substantial quantity. It is good explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-frame_subtraction

Ruud

Fascinating. I've been wondering what caused that doubling of time - I knew it was related to processing out the noise, but this clarifies what's actually causing it...
+1 for filling in a gap in my understanding and teaching me something.

You're welcome

I learn new things every day by reading here.

Ruud

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ruud Wilschut
Regular MemberPosts: 321
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to TH - NikonStrobist, 6 months ago

TH - NikonStrobist wrote:

Very informative thread.

Where does one look for how quickly any given sensor cools?

In practical terms, assume an ambitious photographer wants to take a 3-frame bracketed spread of long exposures, perhaps for HDR or some other purpose. If they are fired off as closely-spaced as possible (which means LENR is off) so there's minimal change -- in say, 3 exposures of 30 seconds each -- won't that third frame be a LOT noisier (assuming LENR is off) since it's in some sense the "final third" of what's effectively a 90-second exposure?

And even with LENR enabled that would be the fifth frame of a six-frame exposure, right? LENR has been adding heat between each of the frames because it's creating a "dark" frame to process with.

I think it depends on a lot of factors how many noise you'll get. Do you make a LE on a very warm night, or in the cold in mid winter. It's hard to say when your sensor will give you more or less hot pixel noise. Warm weather, Using LV and performing a lot of LE's right after each other will surely heat up the sensor, but LENR should deal with it for the removal of the most parts of the heated bright sensor pixels.

In observatoria they make LE's up to several hours and have image sensors to be cooled with liquid nitrogen. LENR is a very useful technique in (semi-pro) consumer digital camera's.

Ruud

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
joecan
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,432
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to Ruud Wilschut, 6 months ago

Ruud Wilschut wrote:

I think it depends on a lot of factors how many noise you'll get. Do you make a LE on a very warm night, or in the cold in mid winter. It's hard to say when your sensor will give you more or less hot pixel noise. Warm weather, Using LV and performing a lot of LE's right after each other will surely heat up the sensor, but LENR should deal with it for the removal of the most parts of the heated bright sensor pixels.

In observatoria they make LE's up to several hours and have image sensors to be cooled with liquid nitrogen. LENR is a very useful technique in (semi-pro) consumer digital camera's.

Ruud

Very good answer from Ruud!

Yes in warm night (under some palm trees…) with each long exposure the noise will increase (happened to me.. yes under palm trees. Wasn't a Nikon, but the physics are the same more or less)

Last year in Vegas was so hot I had hard time after 10 am to hold my D700 in my hands. And if I start pixel peeping I can see some noise in photos of 20 sec or longer.

I bet you take a long exposure here (Winnipeg, Canada) of 30 minutes (if your battery will hold…)  and you won't have any noise. Yes, last night was under -40 C (or F if you want). That would make a big difference.

Joe
http://joecan.smugmug.com/

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
LynchpinH
Forum MemberPosts: 79
Like?
Re: D610 long-exposure noise
In reply to juliancd38, 6 months ago

I've actually noticed very similar noise levels doing exposures as brief as ~15 to ~20 seconds on a warm (about 30 degrees C) day.

I cloned the worst of it out, it didn't take long - but yeah I might give LENR a go too, given the shortish exposure time.

Cheers for posting. D610 user here too.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads