GX7 Lens Review on DxO

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Anders W
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Ulric, 8 months ago

Ulric wrote:

Ultbruin wrote:

The comparison is between the GX7 and E-M1 which understandably is not as good. However, when you dig deeper and compare to the GH3, GX7 still scores lower on respective lenses.

Curious.

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-the-16-MPix-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-Part-1/How-does-sharpness-compare-between-the-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-and-the-Olympus-OM-D-E-M1

And the E-M5 scores even higher than E-M1, even though the E-M5 has an AA-filter and the E-M1 hasn't. For example with the 75/1.8 :

GX7 - 7 P-Mpix

E-M1 - 12 P-Mpix

E-M5 - 13 P-Mpix

Same thing with the 14-140/3.5-5.6 :

GX7 - 4 P-Mpix

E-M1 - 6 P-Mpix

E-M5 - 7 P-Mpix

Very strange. Doesn't make much sense.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

What is equally strange is that DxO have published these dubious results apparently without noting how odd they are and with no analysis to support them. The AA filter doesn't seem enough to explain the huge difference in resolution with the 14-140 on the EM-5 and GX7.

+1

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tt321
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Anders W, 8 months ago

Anders W wrote:

Ulric wrote:

Ultbruin wrote:

The comparison is between the GX7 and E-M1 which understandably is not as good. However, when you dig deeper and compare to the GH3, GX7 still scores lower on respective lenses.

Curious.

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-the-16-MPix-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-Part-1/How-does-sharpness-compare-between-the-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-and-the-Olympus-OM-D-E-M1

And the E-M5 scores even higher than E-M1, even though the E-M5 has an AA-filter and the E-M1 hasn't. For example with the 75/1.8 :

GX7 - 7 P-Mpix

E-M1 - 12 P-Mpix

E-M5 - 13 P-Mpix

Same thing with the 14-140/3.5-5.6 :

GX7 - 4 P-Mpix

E-M1 - 6 P-Mpix

E-M5 - 7 P-Mpix

Very strange. Doesn't make much sense.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

What is equally strange is that DxO have published these dubious results apparently without noting how odd they are and with no analysis to support them. The AA filter doesn't seem enough to explain the huge difference in resolution with the 14-140 on the EM-5 and GX7.

+1

In order to achieve what an E-M5 user can get from a 10x zoom, a GX7 user must buy the sharpest prime in existence. Hmm

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Pictures shooter
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to javayoda, 8 months ago

javayoda wrote:

Ultbruin wrote:

The comparison is between the GX7 and E-M1 which understandably is not as good. However, when you dig deeper and compare to the GH3, GX7 still scores lower on respective lenses.

Curious.quetely

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-the-16-MPix-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-Part-1/How-does-sharpness-compare-between-the-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-and-the-Olympus-OM-D-E-M1

Not only that, the GX7 scores lower on sharpness than some 12mp cameras like the E-PL2. I find their result difficult to believe.

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Generally any scores that may have influence on sales are just waiting for its good sponsor..... and it seems not all testers are able to to resist the temptation...

It's so bitterly to get to know, just recently they looked so impartial and respectable...

Olympus suddenly got absolutely unexpected help from mysterious Mrs Fortune who so softly whispered - Yeah Honey, now you can resolutely decrease your advertising budget, Panny is not a strong competitor anymore...

Sorry, I just retell my strange night dream, forget it...

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Sergey Borachev
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to rrr_hhh, 8 months ago

rrr_hhh wrote:

Ultbruin wrote:

The comparison is between the GX7 and E-M1 which understandably is not as good. However, when you dig deeper and compare to the GH3, GX7 still scores lower on respective lenses.

Curious.

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-the-16-MPix-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-Part-1/How-does-sharpness-compare-between-the-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-and-the-Olympus-OM-D-E-M1

The E-M1 was also scoring lower than the E-M5 with almost every lenses. I wonder whether they have changed something in their tests ? Looks like the newer cameras are getting somewhat lower scores.

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rrr_hhh

I have also found DXO test results often odd.  Just when everybody expects the latest M43 cameras to achieve higher performance levels and to get even more competitive with DSLRs, as reported by some other testers/bloggers, DXO again surprised us with scores that are even lower than older models.  Unbelievable!  Maybe DXO's own testing methods and their transparency should be reviewed.

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Advent1sam
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Re: Imaging resource results with 0.3 firmware?
In reply to Ultbruin, 8 months ago

Ultbruin wrote:

The comparison is between the GX7 and E-M1 which understandably is not as good. However, when you dig deeper and compare to the GH3, GX7 still scores lower on respective lenses.

Curious.

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-the-16-MPix-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-Part-1/How-does-sharpness-compare-between-the-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-and-the-Olympus-OM-D-E-M1

Is it possible the delivered product has some final tweaking, it is surprising that they publish results with early firmware, but they all do it.

In any event they found resolution comparable with em-1, a little behind maybe. Maybe dxo have found something though that Pana should investiagte and comment on?

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Pictures shooter
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Sergey Borachev, 8 months ago

Sergey Borachev wrote:

I have also found DXO test results often odd. Just when everybody expects the latest M43 cameras to achieve higher performance levels and to get even more competitive with DSLRs, as reported by some other testers/bloggers, DXO again surprised us with scores that are even lower than older models. Unbelievable! Maybe DXO's own testing methods and their transparency should be reviewed.

It would be nice to get a sample of a grass they were smoking.
I see that Olympus 75mm F1.8 on old, more than four-year old Panasonic GH1 has 9 mysterious units called "P-Mpix",
but the same lens on GX7 provides only miserable 7  "P-Mpix",
and even the oldest, I would say ancient, five-year (!) Panasonic G1 still provides 8 "P-Mpix".
Panasonic's development team are not even able  just to repeat its result of distant past 2008...
It's too far beyond the bound of any explicable common sense.
It looks like DxO use some magic coefficient that depends on how well should go sales of competing vendor cameras...

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Sergey Borachev
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Pictures shooter, 8 months ago

Pictures shooter wrote:

Sergey Borachev wrote:

I have also found DXO test results often odd. Just when everybody expects the latest M43 cameras to achieve higher performance levels and to get even more competitive with DSLRs, as reported by some other testers/bloggers, DXO again surprised us with scores that are even lower than older models. Unbelievable! Maybe DXO's own testing methods and their transparency should be reviewed.

It would be nice to get a sample of a grass they were smoking.
I see that Olympus 75mm F1.8 on old, more than four-year old Panasonic GH1 has 9 mysterious units called "P-Mpix",
but the same lens on GX7 provides only miserable 7 "P-Mpix",
and even the oldest, I would say ancient, five-year (!) Panasonic G1 still provides 8 "P-Mpix".
Panasonic's development team are not even able just to repeat its result of distant past 2008...
It's too far beyond the bound of any explicable common sense.
It looks like DxO use some magic coefficient that depends on how well should go sales of competing vendor cameras...

Thanks for these examples. Good to know it's not just me. It is confusing when new, non-standard and "mysterious" performance units are used and they are not or cannot be explained fully to let people comprehend how they are arrived at or how they are relevant to what we see. I certainly cannot understand those P-Mpix scores. I have also been puzzled by a number of other DXO results, including those for the E-M5 and Sigma 60mm, and particularly by the huge delay in the release of their test results (tests performed long ago but not released) for th E-M5 at a time when that camera was all the rage and DXO's subsequent less enthusiastic than most other reputable reviewers' results. That was when I first started to have doubts about its reliability and impartiality, and unfortunately the odd scoring has continued since, with odd scores now and then apparently often with M43 products.

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Ontario Gone
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Pictures shooter, 8 months ago

Pictures shooter wrote:

Generally any scores that may have influence on sales are just waiting for its good sponsor..... and it seems not all testers are able to to resist the temptation...

It's so bitterly to get to know, just recently they looked so impartial and respectable...

Olympus suddenly got absolutely unexpected help from mysterious Mrs Fortune who so softly whispered - Yeah Honey, now you can resolutely decrease your advertising budget, Panny is not a strong competitor anymore...

Sorry, I just retell my strange night dream, forget it...

What is interesting, is how Oly has partnered with sony, a well known now-mirrorless competitor, and maker of sensors that compete with Panasonic sensors. Furthermore, Panasonic is developing their own bayer color filter replacement that will net them a full stop of light (huge advantage over Olympus and other APSC sensors once it's in place), and also joint developing a new organic sensor with Fuji (offering another 20% better light absorption). I'm not sure what is to become of this because Pany and Oly are tied to the same mount. It's a very odd situation.

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Ontario Gone
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Re: Imaging resource results with 0.3 firmware?
In reply to Advent1sam, 8 months ago

Advent1sam wrote:

In any event they found resolution comparable with em-1, a little behind maybe. Maybe dxo have found something though that Pana should investiagte and comment on?

I don't know man, i know DPR has work to do in the noise comparison area as their settings are not always normalized, but when comparing cameras at base iso, it gives a fairly good representation of resolving power. Especially when the new test scene is much more 2 dimensional so DOF is less an issue. According to this, looking at GX7/EM5/EM1/EPL5, at base iso, the GX7 looks the best.

Maybe it's a focus thing, maybe DPR used horribad lenses on the Olympus cameras? I would guess DXO screwed something up rather than DPR in this respect.

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SlamdunK
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Re: Imaging resource results with 0.3 firmware?
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

If  you compare the gx7 raw files with earlier Panasonic cameras, the GX7 is clearly ahead. Both the DPR review and DXO seems pretty unprofessional and unfair in their assessments. another strange part is that dxo themselves say the gx7 has the best panasonic sensors so far.

Disappointed in these sites.

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Anders W
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Re: Imaging resource results with 0.3 firmware?
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

Advent1sam wrote:

In any event they found resolution comparable with em-1, a little behind maybe. Maybe dxo have found something though that Pana should investiagte and comment on?

I don't know man, i know DPR has work to do in the noise comparison area as their settings are not always normalized, but when comparing cameras at base iso, it gives a fairly good representation of resolving power. Especially when the new test scene is much more 2 dimensional so DOF is less an issue. According to this, looking at GX7/EM5/EM1/EPL5, at base iso, the GX7 looks the best.

Pretty much all the DPR samples (new studio scene, daylight) for MFT cameras are suspect as far as resolution is concerned. Noone knows for sure why, but sharpness looks significantly better from ISO 800 on, where the cameras are shot at shutter speeds that fall outside shutter-shock territory. Only the GM1 (electronic first curtain shutter) seems entirely unaffected. Among the others, the unexpected difference in sharpness across the ISO range is perhaps least pronounced for the GX7 (and the E-M5, which was tested with the 50/2 rather than the 45/1.8 and looks like it suffers from slightly incorrect focus more than anything else) but I see some traces of it for the GX7 too.

The DxO lens test results for the GX7 are presumably off for some completely different reason. Hard to know exactly what went wrong but something clearly did. Of course, the GX7 can be expected to do at least as well as other Pany cameras with 16 MP sensors and the DxO figures are far off that mark. Weird that DxO didn't react but simply went ahead and published the results.

Maybe it's a focus thing, maybe DPR used horribad lenses on the Olympus cameras? I would guess DXO screwed something up rather than DPR in this respect.

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gteague
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Ultbruin, 8 months ago

yes, i know this is a crappy photo as a photo, but i had just received my 12-32 lens and mounted it on my new gx7 i got just day before yesterday. i wanted to show how 'retro' the combination looked and started to just shoot the camera with my iphone but decided instead to shoot into a mirror so i could show the camera/lens and a hint of how the lens was doing. this was taken in my bathroom mirror (which was smudged and dirty as hell) under low, crappy lighting and i'm sure could use some white balance adjustment. but i was astonished at the quality and i'm not easily astonished having been photographing since the box camera 620 days--way before the term 'selfie' became a meme, that's for sure!

as i said, this is the very first frame i've shot with this camera and there is absolutely no editing except i renamed the file with my preferred filename schema. i had forgotten to set my raw+jpeg and so all i got with this first shot was the jpg. i do have the i.dynamic and i.resolution turned on as i've determined they can be very helpful in certain lighting situations by using older panasonic models but no other style or filter settings.

anyway, look at the detail in this image and tell me that it's worse than then gx1-which i also have. and i owned the em5 for about a year and i never got an image of this quality out of it even with lenses of 4x the price. if it wasn't dark i'd go and try my 75/1.8 right now, but hey, there's a full moon at 0230--i might see what i can do with it.

to say i'm satisfied with my new combo is a vast understatement and i am ignoring everything dxo mark says about this camera until perhaps they re-test it. and i'm a very satisfied user of their dxo optics pro, viewpoint, and filmpack products so i have no beef with dxo whatsoever.

sorry for inflicting ya 'selfie' on the world. just testing ... 2...3...4

/guy

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MarkyM
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DxO's Comments on this...Strong AA Filter?
In reply to gteague, 8 months ago

Emilie from DxO has commented on their site saying they "guess" it is a strong AA filter:

"Yes, this is something we checked many times before publish it,...
Sharpness measured on GX7 is a bit low, but pretty close to the GX1 results. We guess there is a strong Anti Alias filter on this cameras."

It seems to me they did something wrong or had a bad unit.

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Anders W
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Re: DxO's Comments on this...Strong AA Filter?
In reply to MarkyM, 8 months ago

MarkyM wrote:

Emilie from DxO has commented on their site saying they "guess" it is a strong AA filter:

"Yes, this is something we checked many times before publish it,...
Sharpness measured on GX7 is a bit low, but pretty close to the GX1 results. We guess there is a strong Anti Alias filter on this cameras."

It seems to me they did something wrong or had a bad unit.

Strong AA filter as an explanation for this kind of discrepancy (worst results for any MFT camera ever tested, including all those with 12 MP sensors)? No way. If that had actually been the case (which is of course extremely unlikely in the first place), it would have been known long ago. Several test sites (inluding SLR Gear/Imaging Resources and optyczne.pl, the Polish counterpart) have looked at the resolution of the sensor without finding anything unusual.

So DxO made a mistake or had a faulty unit. What is really weird is that they went ahead and published the results in spite of the fact that something is clearly wrong.

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Enir4
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Ultbruin, 8 months ago

Comparing my GX7 and my NEX 7, both with the Sigma 60mm, there is a very slight increase in detail with the GX7, probably due to lens variations. There is instead some difference in gradations and clipping highlits, bot a bit in favor of the NEX 7. Comparing the GX7 and 12-35 with the Sony RX1, I have both, there is a more marked difference in gradations, and also in microcontrasto, both in favor of the RX1. In other words, to be expected, nothing to write home about and nothing to do with the small disaster in lens performance mentioned by DxO. I strongly suspect that DxO's testing procedure went very wrong somewhere.

Enrique

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gteague
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Enir4, 8 months ago

perhaps their regular testers went on christmas holiday and the interns are working ... [g]

/guy

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Enir4
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Enir4, 8 months ago

By the way, I also compared my NEX 7 with the 10-18mm lens set at 24mm equivalent with the GX7 with the 12-35 at 24mm equivalent. Aside from the usual difference in cliping highlights, there is nothing slight about the difference: the GX7 + 12-35 are just well above, in a different class. And yet DxO gives a score of 15 to the combination GX7 and 12-35, and 14 to the NEX 7 and 10-18. Sheer nonsense, the GX7 with 12-35 is MUCH better. Something went very wrong with DxO's testing.

Enrique

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MarkyM
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Re: DxO's Comments on this...Strong AA Filter?
In reply to Anders W, 8 months ago

Anders W wrote:

MarkyM wrote:

Emilie from DxO has commented on their site saying they "guess" it is a strong AA filter:

"Yes, this is something we checked many times before publish it,...
Sharpness measured on GX7 is a bit low, but pretty close to the GX1 results. We guess there is a strong Anti Alias filter on this cameras."

It seems to me they did something wrong or had a bad unit.

Strong AA filter as an explanation for this kind of discrepancy (worst results for any MFT camera ever tested, including all those with 12 MP sensors)? No way. If that had actually been the case (which is of course extremely unlikely in the first place), it would have been known long ago. Several test sites (inluding SLR Gear/Imaging Resources and optyczne.pl, the Polish counterpart) have looked at the resolution of the sensor without finding anything unusual.

So DxO made a mistake or had a faulty unit. What is really weird is that they went ahead and published the results in spite of the fact that something is clearly wrong.

Agreed.

FYI anyone can register and comment to their thread here:

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-the-16-MPix-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GX7-Part-1

Maybe we can get them to re-test.

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Steen Bay
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Re: DxO's Comments on this...Strong AA Filter?
In reply to Anders W, 8 months ago

Anders W wrote:

MarkyM wrote:

Emilie from DxO has commented on their site saying they "guess" it is a strong AA filter:

"Yes, this is something we checked many times before publish it,...
Sharpness measured on GX7 is a bit low, but pretty close to the GX1 results. We guess there is a strong Anti Alias filter on this cameras."

It seems to me they did something wrong or had a bad unit.

Strong AA filter as an explanation for this kind of discrepancy (worst results for any MFT camera ever tested, including all those with 12 MP sensors)? No way. If that had actually been the case (which is of course extremely unlikely in the first place), it would have been known long ago. Several test sites (inluding SLR Gear/Imaging Resources and optyczne.pl, the Polish counterpart) have looked at the resolution of the sensor without finding anything unusual.

So DxO made a mistake or had a faulty unit. What is really weird is that they went ahead and published the results in spite of the fact that something is clearly wrong.

Checked.. DxO has tested 29 different mFT lenses on 13 different mFT cameras (+ a few older lenses only on older cameras), and with every single of the 29 lenses the GX7 gets a very low score. Makes me wonder... mistakes happen, but 29 times in a row! Could it be that they don't actually test every single lens on every single body, but instead use the test result from one camera to derive/calculate the 'results' for all the other cameras?

If doing it like that, then it's only necessary to test a single 'reference' lens on a new camera like the GX7. Saves a lot of work, but if something goes wrong, then all the derived results will be wrong too.

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Steen Bay
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Re: GX7 Lens Review on DxO
In reply to Enir4, 8 months ago

Enir4 wrote:

By the way, I also compared my NEX 7 with the 10-18mm lens set at 24mm equivalent with the GX7 with the 12-35 at 24mm equivalent. Aside from the usual difference in cliping highlights, there is nothing slight about the difference: the GX7 + 12-35 are just well above, in a different class. And yet DxO gives a score of 15 to the combination GX7 and 12-35, and 14 to the NEX 7 and 10-18. Sheer nonsense, the GX7 with 12-35 is MUCH better. Something went very wrong with DxO's testing.

Enrique

DxO's P-Mpix score for the two combinations are like this :

GX7/12-35 - 5 P-Mpix

NEX-7/10-18 - 9 P-Mpix

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