If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?

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giliath
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If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
4 months ago

I don't have much experience on how to use the flashgun, but sometimes I need to shoot low-light photo. So I think maybe I need a flashgun. All I need is just the bounce capability. Metz 44 seems good, but it is expensive. I not sure will I change to DSLR, so I don't want to buy an expensive flash, as it will be hard to sell it. All the Samsung flashguns can't turn left or right. Then I found a cheap flash - yn560. The only problem is, I have to use it manually. I wonder if I can use it effiently? Or I'd better buy something with ttl?

btw, does anyone know if the ttl function can let the exposure proper when bounce from the ceiling or the wall?

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shademaster
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

giliath wrote:

I don't have much experience on how to use the flashgun, but sometimes I need to shoot low-light photo. So I think maybe I need a flashgun. All I need is just the bounce capability. Metz 44 seems good, but it is expensive. I not sure will I change to DSLR, so I don't want to buy an expensive flash, as it will be hard to sell it. All the Samsung flashguns can't turn left or right. Then I found a cheap flash - yn560. The only problem is, I have to use it manually. I wonder if I can use it effiently? Or I'd better buy something with ttl?

btw, does anyone know if the ttl function can let the exposure proper when bounce from the ceiling or the wall?

TTL will work for bounce.

I have both YN-560 and SEF-20a.  Many people on this forum seem to have YN-560.  Good deal.  I don't use mine very heavily, but it seems robust.

I find that TTL is much more important for direct flash.  In direct flash, the exposure changes rapidly as the subject moves.  In indirect flash there is much less change.  If you are bouncing off the ceiling and the subject moves from 3m away to 4m away, there really isn't that much change in the bounced light, but a huge change in the direct light (square of the distance assuming no zoom on the flash).  I can basically point my YN-560 up at the ceiling at 1/4 or 1/8 power at the wide setting, set the ISO and Aperture on the camera to something reasonable and just go with it…  changing shutter speed will then change the  amount of ambient light relative to the flash getting into the exposure.  Of course, this all depends on having white ceilings/walls of reasonable height available.  If you want hard more directional light by using a narrower beam (longer zoom) setting on the zoom to make a tight spot on the ceiling, then the subject motion relative to the location of the spot on the ceiling becomes a bit more important but still not as dramatic a change as direct on-camera.

BUT, I also like to use a rather big bounce card (rogue flash bender) to get some additional direct light.  This is when TTL is convenient.  But then one still needs to physically bend the flash bender to adjust the direct/indirect ratio, so it's a tricky calculation there, but at least the camera's TTL will give a reasonable overall exposure.  My go-to setup for kid's birthday parties (that's my stage of life right now) is the SEF-20a straight up with the flash bender on it.  I can get directional light off walls using the bender too if i want.

I'd start with the YN560, and then if you find yourself not able to make the changes quickly enough for moving targets, get the SEF220 or the Metz44.

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Kaziklu
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

As has been said TTL is much better for direct flash. I don't have enough experience with Samsung's TTL flash or Metz to say how well they work in groups.

I use 2 yn560II's right now and I personally love them. I had never used Flash before so I learned to use it that way as a studio style lighting.

Manual Flash is fairly simple. you toss your camera into Manual. Shutter at 1/125 if you want all flash and as low as 1/60 if you want some ambient light from the room.

The Flash setting are set manually with the yn-560 you have loads of power options. From Full power to 1/128th power. The key is getting some practice as well as test firing in each room to have an idea what settings will work. It's not easy but it's not difficult either. The key is remembering that you adjust your exposure with the flash not the camera.

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to shademaster, 4 months ago

giliath wrote:

I don't have much experience on how to use the flashgun, but sometimes I need to shoot low-light photo. So I think maybe I need a flashgun. All I need is just the bounce capability. Metz 44 seems good, but it is expensive. I not sure will I change to DSLR, so I don't want to buy an expensive flash, as it will be hard to sell it. All the Samsung flashguns can't turn left or right. Then I found a cheap flash - yn560. The only problem is, I have to use it manually. I wonder if I can use it effiently? Or I'd better buy something with ttl?

btw, does anyone know if the ttl function can let the exposure proper when bounce from the ceiling or the wall?

TTL will work for bounce.

I have both YN-560 and SEF-20a.  Many people on this forum seem to have YN-560.  Good deal.  I don't use mine very heavily, but it seems robust.

I find that TTL is much more important for direct flash.  In direct flash, the exposure changes rapidly as the subject moves.  In indirect flash there is much less change.  If you are bouncing off the ceiling and the subject moves from 3m away to 4m away, there really isn't that much change in the bounced light, but a huge change in the direct light (square of the distance assuming no zoom on the flash).  I can basically point my YN-560 up at the ceiling at 1/4 or 1/8 power at the wide setting, set the ISO and Aperture on the camera to something reasonable and just go with it…  changing shutter speed will then change the  amount of ambient light relative to the flash getting into the exposure.  Of course, this all depends on having white ceilings/walls of reasonable height available.  If you want hard more directional light by using a narrower beam (longer zoom) setting on the zoom to make a tight spot on the ceiling, then the subject motion relative to the location of the spot on the ceiling becomes a bit more important but still not as dramatic a change as direct on-camera.

BUT, I also like to use a rather big bounce card (rogue flash bender) to get some additional direct light.  This is when TTL is convenient.  But then one still needs to physically bend the flash bender to adjust the direct/indirect ratio, so it's a tricky calculation there, but at least the camera's TTL will give a reasonable overall exposure.  My go-to setup for kid's birthday parties (that's my stage of life right now) is the SEF-20a straight up with the flash bender on it.  I can get directional light off walls using the bender too if i want.

I'd start with the YN560, and then if you find yourself not able to make the changes quickly enough for moving targets, get the SEF220 or the Metz44.

Thank you so much for your help. Most of the time, I should let the flash bounce off the ceiling, the wall behind me or the corner of the ceiling behind me? I found Samsung gn20 is cheap enough for me, but obviouly it can only bounce off the ceiling. Which one do you think is better for a noob flash user for low-light use, gn20 or yn560?

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to Kaziklu, 4 months ago

As has been said TTL is much better for direct flash. I don't have enough experience with Samsung's TTL flash or Metz to say how well they work in groups.

I use 2 yn560II's right now and I personally love them. I had never used Flash before so I learned to use it that way as a studio style lighting.

Manual Flash is fairly simple. you toss your camera into Manual. Shutter at 1/125 if you want all flash and as low as 1/60 if you want some ambient light from the room.

The Flash setting are set manually with the yn-560 you have loads of power options. From Full power to 1/128th power. The key is getting some practice as well as test firing in each room to have an idea what settings will work. It's not easy but it's not difficult either. The key is remembering that you adjust your exposure with the flash not the camera.

Thank you for your reply! I know yn560 is good for its price. But my purpose is not for the serious and high quality studio style photography. I need a flash just for some indoor activities, like a party or something like that. I take some photos to keep a memory of it. That's all I need and I can't take too much time to shoot photos during that kind of activities. So if I don't have too many opportunities to test firing, manual flash will be not that easy to perform very well?

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shademaster
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

giliath wrote:

giliath wrote:

I don't have much experience on how to use the flashgun, but sometimes I need to shoot low-light photo. So I think maybe I need a flashgun. All I need is just the bounce capability. Metz 44 seems good, but it is expensive. I not sure will I change to DSLR, so I don't want to buy an expensive flash, as it will be hard to sell it. All the Samsung flashguns can't turn left or right. Then I found a cheap flash - yn560. The only problem is, I have to use it manually. I wonder if I can use it effiently? Or I'd better buy something with ttl?

btw, does anyone know if the ttl function can let the exposure proper when bounce from the ceiling or the wall?

TTL will work for bounce.

I have both YN-560 and SEF-20a. Many people on this forum seem to have YN-560. Good deal. I don't use mine very heavily, but it seems robust.

I find that TTL is much more important for direct flash. In direct flash, the exposure changes rapidly as the subject moves. In indirect flash there is much less change. If you are bouncing off the ceiling and the subject moves from 3m away to 4m away, there really isn't that much change in the bounced light, but a huge change in the direct light (square of the distance assuming no zoom on the flash). I can basically point my YN-560 up at the ceiling at 1/4 or 1/8 power at the wide setting, set the ISO and Aperture on the camera to something reasonable and just go with it… changing shutter speed will then change the amount of ambient light relative to the flash getting into the exposure. Of course, this all depends on having white ceilings/walls of reasonable height available. If you want hard more directional light by using a narrower beam (longer zoom) setting on the zoom to make a tight spot on the ceiling, then the subject motion relative to the location of the spot on the ceiling becomes a bit more important but still not as dramatic a change as direct on-camera.

BUT, I also like to use a rather big bounce card (rogue flash bender) to get some additional direct light. This is when TTL is convenient. But then one still needs to physically bend the flash bender to adjust the direct/indirect ratio, so it's a tricky calculation there, but at least the camera's TTL will give a reasonable overall exposure. My go-to setup for kid's birthday parties (that's my stage of life right now) is the SEF-20a straight up with the flash bender on it. I can get directional light off walls using the bender too if i want.

I'd start with the YN560, and then if you find yourself not able to make the changes quickly enough for moving targets, get the SEF220 or the Metz44.

Thank you so much for your help. Most of the time, I should let the flash bounce off the ceiling, the wall behind me or the corner of the ceiling behind me? I found Samsung gn20 is cheap enough for me, but obviouly it can only bounce off the ceiling. Which one do you think is better for a noob flash user for low-light use, gn20 or yn560?

I started out with the SEF20a shooting straight up.  Then added a bounce card to get catch lights.  Then got the YN560 to shoot behind me, off walls, and at intermediate angles (but lost the TTL).  I think this is a natural progression.  You can get "fine looking" photos with 220a pointed straight up in full automatic mode; they won't be terribly interesting (no directionality or gradient), but they'll be perfectly fine with soft light and minimal shadows.  I'd start there and worry about swivel later.

If I had it to do over again, I would have gone μ4/3 for better flash options (among other things), but now I'm invested in Samsung lenses, so...

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shademaster
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to shademaster, 4 months ago

As an example… here's a shot at fairly close range with low ceilings with SEF20a.  This was in my pre-bounce-card days, so there are some shadows under his chin and not much twinkle in his eyes.  A bounce card would have taken care of the shadows under the chin, but the overall light would still be flat… not bad, just not terribly interesting

In contrast, here's the first shot (literally) with my YN-560 (you'll see the kid is older).  Much more interesting directional light, but you need to make some educated guesses about flash power and camera settings.

The kid's older too… funny how that happens...

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to shademaster, 4 months ago

As an example… here's a shot at fairly close range with low ceilings with SEF20a.  This was in my pre-bounce-card days, so there are some shadows under his chin and not much twinkle in his eyes.  A bounce card would have taken care of the shadows under the chin, but the overall light would still be flat… not bad, just not terribly interesting

In contrast, here's the first shot (literally) with my YN-560 (you'll see the kid is older).  Much more interesting directional light, but you need to make some educated guesses about flash power and camera settings.

The kid's older too… funny how that happens...

Nice shot and cute kid. It seems metz 44 is still the easist way to get a better photo. I have to think will I change from Samsunh to Sony, then I can decide if it is a good choice to buy an expensive flashgun. (At least it is expensive for me@_@)

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nx200USER1
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

I'd say go for the sef20a and go from there. Full ttl for direct flash shots with the ability and power to bounce of low ceilings. But the yn-560 is prolly cheaper and more powerful but with no ttl. Your choice. I was going to get the yn-560 but someone pointed out the flash doent fit the camera with the 85mm lens. I have the 65mm lens which isn't too much smaller. So I got concerned.

To be honest, I found the perfect setup for an amateur like myself for indoor shots with the help of members here. By simply using the sef8a on-camera as fill in flash whilst I have the sef20a on a small $10 optical trigger cube, Seagull syk-5. Works with Sammy nx200/sony nx5. And its easy for me to actually hold the sef20a+optical trigger in hand while shooting with the nx200.

Btw, those premium Metz-44a for Samsung are firmware upgradable. All Metz flash are. Would anyone know if its possible to reflash the firmware of a Metz flash from Samsung to a canon or Nikon version? Or is the hardware inside different for each brand specific version?

It would be awefully convenient to be able to reflash the flash if one ever changes camera brands.

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to nx200USER1, 4 months ago

nx200USER1 wrote:

I'd say go for the sef20a and go from there. Full ttl for direct flash shots with the ability and power to bounce of low ceilings. But the yn-560 is prolly cheaper and more powerful but with no ttl. Your choice. I was going to get the yn-560 but someone pointed out the flash doent fit the camera with the 85mm lens. I have the 65mm lens which isn't too much smaller. So I got concerned.

To be honest, I found the perfect setup for an amateur like myself for indoor shots with the help of members here. By simply using the sef8a on-camera as fill in flash whilst I have the sef20a on a small $10 optical trigger cube, Seagull syk-5. Works with Sammy nx200/sony nx5. And its easy for me to actually hold the sef20a+optical trigger in hand while shooting with the nx200.

Btw, those premium Metz-44a for Samsung are firmware upgradable. All Metz flash are. Would anyone know if its possible to reflash the firmware of a Metz flash from Samsung to a canon or Nikon version? Or is the hardware inside different for each brand specific version?

It would be awefully convenient to be able to reflash the flash if one ever changes camera brands.

I know little about the flash, but I think the hot shoe of Samsung is different from Canon or Nikon. So I don't think you can use it on a Canon camera, otherwise I'm sure I'll buy the Metz one. I remember I have read somewhere that some old Metz flash can be used to a different hot shoe by using an adapter, but the new models can't? I'm not quite sure about it.

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Kaziklu
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

It really is a matter of if you want to take the time to learn on your own. TTL is great because you can just go out and shoot without thinking... (or less thinking)

Manual Flash like shooting in manual and with Manual focus takes practice to get quick with it... if you are willing to practice and learn the flash, and how the light behaves, then it works great. If you aren't (and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to do that) then the Metz is ideal.

Honestly I'll likely end up picking up a Metz for on camera purposes at some point myself. TTL is nice to have.

Sure I picked up 2 YN560II for less then one Metz.. but if it gets you the photos you want.. then it's worth having.

It's a tool box, you fill the box with the tools you need. If you are hammering a nail into a wall don't use a Rock because it is free if a hammer will do the job much better and easier for you.

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to Kaziklu, 4 months ago

It really is a matter of if you want to take the time to learn on your own. TTL is great because you can just go out and shoot without thinking... (or less thinking)

Manual Flash like shooting in manual and with Manual focus takes practice to get quick with it... if you are willing to practice and learn the flash, and how the light behaves, then it works great. If you aren't (and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to do that) then the Metz is ideal.

Honestly I'll likely end up picking up a Metz for on camera purposes at some point myself. TTL is nice to have.

Sure I picked up 2 YN560II for less then one Metz.. but if it gets you the photos you want.. then it's worth having.

It's a tool box, you fill the box with the tools you need. If you are hammering a nail into a wall don't use a Rock because it is free if a hammer will do the job much better and easier for you.

Then it seems ttl is better for me, so I think probably I'll give up yn560 for now. Now all I need is to choose from metz 44 and Samsung gn20.

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Kaziklu
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

Go with the Metz 44AF-1 unless the Samsung flash is half the price... then well no still go with the Metz. The Price is reasonable the the functionality of having the flash a little higher and having added bounce ability is significant. More so you can still use it as a good manual off camera flash as well should the need arise.

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to Kaziklu, 4 months ago

Go with the Metz 44AF-1 unless the Samsung flash is half the price... then well no still go with the Metz. The Price is reasonable the the functionality of having the flash a little higher and having added bounce ability is significant. More so you can still use it as a good manual off camera flash as well should the need arise.

I can get a new gn20 for under £40, while the metz 44 costs about £130....

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shademaster
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

If by GN20, you mean SEF20a go for it!  Metz44 is also much bigger.   I rarely take it out of the house and almost always bring along the SEF20a.

You can use it off camera manual too, but only if you get a cable or RF triggers.  I assume the Metz has an optical trigger for manual (and the YN-560 does for sure).

That's the other issue too with the YN-560.  It is ridiculously big for the NX bodies.  I usually grip the flash when I'm shooting and the body comes for the ride.

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to shademaster, 4 months ago

If by GN20, you mean SEF20a go for it!  Metz44 is also much bigger.   I rarely take it out of the house and almost always bring along the SEF20a.

You can use it off camera manual too, but only if you get a cable or RF triggers.  I assume the Metz has an optical trigger for manual (and the YN-560 does for sure).

That's the other issue too with the YN-560.  It is ridiculously big for the NX bodies.  I usually grip the flash when I'm shooting and the body comes for the ride.

I know metz 44 is much bigger so that it's hard to put it in my bag. But sef20 can't bounce from the wall behind me, is it better than bounce from the ceiling?

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Kaziklu
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

It's not even just bounce, there would be almost no light modifying options for the GN20. 
The metz is more versatile over all. 
Soft light is almost always more flattering then hard light. So anything you to diffuse the light will look better, be it diffusers or bouncing. If I think I'm going to use a flash on camera, I usually have a rogue flash bender with me, or a diffusion dome.

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shademaster
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to Kaziklu, 4 months ago

Kaziklu wrote:

It's not even just bounce, there would be almost no light modifying options for the GN20.

Here's an important point that hasn't entered the discussion. There is now an NX-TTL-capable flash cord. It just came out recently, I have it, and it works. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/261322653281?lpid=82

Buy it, (20 bucks), and point the SEF-20 wherever the heck you want.  Use a small soft box or DIY if you want.  At that point the only advantage of Metz is power (and therefore recycle time).  Disadvantage is price and size… and size is the deal breaker for me.  That's why I never take my YN-560 out of the house… not the lack of TTL, but the enormous size.  Put the 30mm on an NX200 or 300 and see how it feels to mount the YN-560.  Flash dwarfs the camera.

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NewForce
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to giliath, 4 months ago

giliath wrote:

Go with the Metz 44AF-1 unless the Samsung flash is half the price... then well no still go with the Metz. The Price is reasonable the the functionality of having the flash a little higher and having added bounce ability is significant. More so you can still use it as a good manual off camera flash as well should the need arise.

I can get a new gn20 for under £40, while the metz 44 costs about £130....

If you not in a hurry 95% of the time when shooting with flash, then cheaper powerful manual flash like YN560 (II or III) definitely a better buy.

It's actually not that hard to manual calculate the needed flash output.

  1. Guide Number = Aperture no. x Distance
  2. Aperture no. = Guide Number / Distance
  3. Distance = Guide Number / Aperture no.

For convenient, you can actually install a "Manual flash calculator" app on a Android or iOS devices to help you doing the calculation.

Or course final flash/camera setup size was a real concern, like the case with shademaster. So use anything like YN560 on a compact APS-C DSLM camera like NX300 would make overall camera appearance look a bit odd.

If that is the case, a smaller flash (like Viltrox JY620) would be a much appealing manual flash to use on any compact APS-C DSLM camera.

If going manual flash that lack of A-TTL metering was really something stopping you, then you have no choice but to settle with SEF20A.

Btw, if you have any chance to find a new SEF42A around £90, like I've bought mine, I would say anytime go for the much smaller size than YN560/44AF-1 yet still powerful SEF42A. More powerful flash was always the better choice, if you really need to shoot with flash. Like shooting under sun with your model fully or partially against light. Not to mention SEF42A look pretty nice when setup on NX300.

Below my SEF42A setup on NX300 with JY620 side-by-side comparison for your reference. With pictures, you'll have a better idea which flash setup suit you most and the one you should go for.

Lastly, enjoy on your way buying your new flash!

-- hide signature --

Kenny

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giliath
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Re: If manual flash (yn560) convinient for a noob?
In reply to NewForce, 4 months ago

NewForce wrote:

giliath wrote:

Go with the Metz 44AF-1 unless the Samsung flash is half the price... then well no still go with the Metz. The Price is reasonable the the functionality of having the flash a little higher and having added bounce ability is significant. More so you can still use it as a good manual off camera flash as well should the need arise.

I can get a new gn20 for under £40, while the metz 44 costs about £130....

If you not in a hurry 95% of the time when shooting with flash, then cheaper powerful manual flash like YN560 (II or III) definitely a better buy.

It's actually not that hard to manual calculate the needed flash output.

  1. Guide Number = Aperture no. x Distance
  2. Aperture no. = Guide Number / Distance
  3. Distance = Guide Number / Aperture no.

For convenient, you can actually install a "Manual flash calculator" app on a Android or iOS devices to help you doing the calculation.

Or course final flash/camera setup size was a real concern, like the case with shademaster. So use anything like YN560 on a compact APS-C DSLM camera like NX300 would make overall camera appearance look a bit odd.

If that is the case, a smaller flash (like Viltrox JY620) would be a much appealing manual flash to use on any compact APS-C DSLM camera.

If going manual flash that lack of A-TTL metering was really something stopping you, then you have no choice but to settle with SEF20A.

Btw, if you have any chance to find a new SEF42A around £90, like I've bought mine, I would say anytime go for the much smaller size than YN560/44AF-1 yet still powerful SEF42A. More powerful flash was always the better choice, if you really need to shoot with flash. Like shooting under sun with your model fully or partially against light. Not to mention SEF42A look pretty nice when setup on NX300.

Below my SEF42A setup on NX300 with JY620 side-by-side comparison for your reference. With pictures, you'll have a better idea which flash setup suit you most and the one you should go for.

Lastly, enjoy on your way buying your new flash!

f/2.2 Aperture 4.13mm Focal Length SM-N9005 Camera f/2.2 Aperture 4.13mm Focal Length SM-N9005 Camera f/2.2 Aperture 4.13mm Focal Length SM-N9005 Camera
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Kenny

Thank you for your pictures! It seems even 42A is quite big on NX300, but I think it is acceptable. Where did you find that cheap SEF42A?

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