Don't understand Nikon

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
Frank C.
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Don't understand Nikon
9 months ago

At one time they had the D300/D700/D3 sold a ton of cameras and ruled the world. Why did they break away from that magical formula? Only the D4 seems to fit in nowadays, where are the other two cameras? The Df should have been the new D700! ie: D800 body + D4 sensor & AF + 7fps. These cameras would literally fly off the shelves, or am I missing something here? This is a real head scratcher to me and has repeatedly confused my purchasing plans....arghh

Nikon D300 Nikon D4 Nikon D700 Nikon D800 Nikon Df
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raztec
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Frank C., 9 months ago

Frank C. wrote:

At one time they had the D300/D700/D3 sold a ton of cameras and ruled the world. Why did they break away from that magical formula? Only the D4 seems to fit in nowadays, where are the other two cameras? The Df should have been the new D700! ie: D800 body + D4 sensor & AF + 7fps. These cameras would literally fly off the shelves, or am I missing something here? This is a real head scratcher to me and has repeatedly confused my purchasing plans....arghh

I agree with you.

The marketing department has too much influence on the company. They should have fired all those guys long ago after the V1 and J1 fiasco. And now the Df which is the quintessential poseur camera. It's pathetic. We know they can do a lot better as you've perceived.

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Zvonko
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to raztec, 9 months ago

raztec wrote:

Frank C. wrote:

At one time they had the D300/D700/D3 sold a ton of cameras and ruled the world. Why did they break away from that magical formula? Only the D4 seems to fit in nowadays, where are the other two cameras? The Df should have been the new D700! ie: D800 body + D4 sensor & AF + 7fps. These cameras would literally fly off the shelves, or am I missing something here? This is a real head scratcher to me and has repeatedly confused my purchasing plans....arghh

I agree with you.

The marketing department has too much influence on the company. They should have fired all those guys long ago after the V1 and J1 fiasco. And now the Df which is the quintessential poseur camera. It's pathetic. We know they can do a lot better as you've perceived.

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this is not a dig but...

I don't understand what people see wrong with the D800. For motion the D800 and D4 are awesome. For stills too they are the best.

Sure the Df  is for posers but it's pretty cool. I'll get one sooner or later but not for posing. I like that I can use knobs like I used to "that's it" and I'll shoot weddings, parties, anything with it.

The current line-up is all the cameras you can buy on the second hand market. You can get Nikon to update firmware and replace shutters... they make money; you have top camera; simple.

I still use my D2hs regularly and I bet plenty shooters do. They don't pop up on eBay all that often. Plus I'm selling off my D300 this week in favour of the Fuji S5 and D2hs combo in DX while if you have a look at my gear list there's nothing I can't shoot with FX either,

I wish that Nikon didn't make those stupid V1&J1 cameras. They don't need to make medium or large format stuff as long as they can make sensors like the D800 one.

I regret selling my D200 and my D700 but the cameras I'm leaft with are tops. I can't see any problem.

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Ian Stuart Forsyth
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Nikon won me over
In reply to Frank C., 9 months ago

The D800 won me over from pentax they did something right, and they have me looking at the DF and maybe selling off the remainder of my pentax gear for a small travel body.

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Joe Tam
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Zvonko, 9 months ago

I agree. I am a pro with almost 20 years experience.

The D4 is great but too big for most assignments. I know fellow shooters with the d800 who say the slower fps limits them in many situations when fast action is happening.  The files are also too big for processing on the go and no option (like 5d) to shoot RAW in lower resolution.

The d610 is great but the grip is too small especially for bigger 2.8 zoom lenses. It also only uses SD cards and has a 16 shot RAW buffer.  Recent dpreviewer posted 28-33 RAW buffer on 5d mk3.

I would love Nikon to answer to the 5d Mark 3. It features the best mix of size, megapixel and speed. It also has an incredibly quiet shutter.

I recently got the Panasnoic GX-7 and 12-24mm and love it because people do not pay attention to me on assignments.  The D4 is very disruptive when I pull it out and I have been threatened because of the loud shutter sounds in the D700 and D3.  The D4 is a quieter in quiet mode but not as quiet as 5d.

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cpkuntz
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Frank C., 9 months ago

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700.  It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps.  This is seriously a deal breaker?  If speed is your thing, get a D610.  It shoots faster than the D700.

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pajarrett
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Zvonko, 9 months ago

Agree.  I like my D800 also.  I don't know how much marketing research has been done anyone saying Nikon does not know what they are about.  Then again, sometimes large companies ignore the research and do what they think will work (not always to a good end).  Since the camera companies are pretty tight lipped, I guess we can only look at their profits over time to see how well they have met the needs of the consumer.

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Lance B
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I don't understand the whinging.
In reply to Frank C., 9 months ago

Frank C. wrote:

At one time they had the D300/D700/D3 sold a ton of cameras and ruled the world. Why did they break away from that magical formula? Only the D4 seems to fit in nowadays, where are the other two cameras? The Df should have been the new D700! ie: D800 body + D4 sensor & AF + 7fps. These cameras would literally fly off the shelves, or am I missing something here? This is a real head scratcher to me and has repeatedly confused my purchasing plans....arghh

That's a very insular comment, don't you think? I have the D800E and it is the perfect camera, IMO. I had the D700 and the D7000, but now, I only need the D800E as it covers both cameras.

What I don't get is all the whinging about Nikon just because Nikon doesn't suit their requirements in every possible aspect.

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Lance B
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to cpkuntz, 9 months ago

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

I couldn't agree more. I think some just feel the need to whinge and gripe when things aren't exactly as they want. Problems of the first world!

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Frank C.
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to cpkuntz, 9 months ago

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

D700 fires 8fps with grip, it can even fire 8fps w/o grip using hack

D610 has D7100 AF module

D700 uses D3's AF module, not D90's

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Frank C.
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Re: I don't understand the whinging.
In reply to Lance B, 9 months ago

Lance B wrote:

Frank C. wrote:

At one time they had the D300/D700/D3 sold a ton of cameras and ruled the world. Why did they break away from that magical formula? Only the D4 seems to fit in nowadays, where are the other two cameras? The Df should have been the new D700! ie: D800 body + D4 sensor & AF + 7fps. These cameras would literally fly off the shelves, or am I missing something here? This is a real head scratcher to me and has repeatedly confused my purchasing plans....arghh

That's a very insular comment, don't you think? I have the D800E and it is the perfect camera, IMO. I had the D700 and the D7000, but now, I only need the D800E as it covers both cameras.

What I don't get is all the whinging about Nikon just because Nikon doesn't suit their requirements in every possible aspect.

Tried shooting DX from a D800... didn't like it. Put the D300s back to my eye and started breathing normally again

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jfriend00
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to cpkuntz, 9 months ago

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

The D700 with grip does 8fps.  That's what most action shooters using the D700 are doing.  Big difference between 4fps and 8fps for action.

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jfriend00
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Lance B, 9 months ago

Lance B wrote:

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

I couldn't agree more. I think some just feel the need to whinge and gripe when things aren't exactly as they want. Problems of the first world!

Uhh, Nikon used to have two cameras (D300 and D700) that, with grip could do 8fps, had pretty decent buffer sizes and had Nikon's best AF and they were semi-affordable (less than $3000). These cameras were very good for people who shoot a lot of action.  Because Nikon's AF was so good and the sensors in the day were pretty good, Nikon won a lot of customers who valued these attributes in a camera for what they shoot.

Now, Nikon has ZERO cameras in this category.  You can get the D800 with very good AF and go 4fps with full sensor or the D610 with a step down in AF and 6fps.  It's kind of easy to see why people that enjoyed the 8fps, great AF, good-sized buffer are having a hard time finding a new Nikon camera that serves as well for action.

My theory is that everything went high MP (24MP and higher) and the EXPEED 3 just couldn't go fast with the way they use it in the dSLR lineup so Nikon skipped a whole generation of speed cameras.  I'm hoping they come back to semi-affordable speed cameras now that EXPEED 4 is available and it can easily go fast.  Heck, EXPEED 4 could even do 8fps at 36MP (not that action photographers who shoot high fps want that many pixels, but EXPEED 4 could do that).

Anyway, there are customers who value these attributes and Nikon seems to have abandoned them unless you can spring for a $6000 D4 (which is beyond what most amateurs are going to pony up).  Perhaps Nikon no longer cares to serve those action photographers or somehow thinks they can just downgrade them all to 4fps - I really don't know.  I'm hoping that EXPEED 4 will enable a new generation of speed cameras and Nikon will once again have the best offerings in that space - but who knows what they're doing any more.  They certainly aren't following any logical, predictable progressions in their product line.

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t.c. marino
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Zvonko, 9 months ago

Zvonko wrote:

raztec wrote:

Frank C. wrote:

At one time they had the D300/D700/D3 sold a ton of cameras and ruled the world. Why did they break away from that magical formula? Only the D4 seems to fit in nowadays, where are the other two cameras? The Df should have been the new D700! ie: D800 body + D4 sensor & AF + 7fps. These cameras would literally fly off the shelves, or am I missing something here? This is a real head scratcher to me and has repeatedly confused my purchasing plans....arghh

I agree with you.

The marketing department has too much influence on the company. They should have fired all those guys long ago after the V1 and J1 fiasco. And now the Df which is the quintessential poseur camera. It's pathetic. We know they can do a lot better as you've perceived.

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this is not a dig but...

I don't understand what people see wrong with the D800. For motion the D800 and D4 are awesome. For stills too they are the best.

Sure the Df is for posers but it's pretty cool. I'll get one sooner or later but not for posing. I like that I can use knobs like I used to "that's it" and I'll shoot weddings, parties, anything with it.

The current line-up is all the cameras you can buy on the second hand market. You can get Nikon to update firmware and replace shutters... they make money; you have top camera; simple.

I still use my D2hs regularly and I bet plenty shooters do. They don't pop up on eBay all that often. Plus I'm selling off my D300 this week in favour of the Fuji S5 and D2hs combo in DX while if you have a look at my gear list there's nothing I can't shoot with FX either,

I wish that Nikon didn't make those stupid V1&J1 cameras. They don't need to make medium or large format stuff as long as they can make sensors like the D800 one.

I regret selling my D200 and my D700 but the cameras I'm leaft with are tops. I can't see any problem.

he he..i'm still using my d2h and making money with it,only 4.1mp..my entry level plastic d3200 "walkaround" camera has a whopping 20 million more mp..wow

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nikonshooter

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t.c. marino
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Lance B, 9 months ago

Lance B wrote:

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

I couldn't agree more. I think some just feel the need to whinge and gripe when things aren't exactly as they want. Problems of the first world!

for those that need it..d700 can shoot 8fps with the right battery set up..really

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Lance B
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Re: I don't understand the whinging.
In reply to Frank C., 9 months ago

Frank C. wrote:

Lance B wrote:

Frank C. wrote:

At one time they had the D300/D700/D3 sold a ton of cameras and ruled the world. Why did they break away from that magical formula? Only the D4 seems to fit in nowadays, where are the other two cameras? The Df should have been the new D700! ie: D800 body + D4 sensor & AF + 7fps. These cameras would literally fly off the shelves, or am I missing something here? This is a real head scratcher to me and has repeatedly confused my purchasing plans....arghh

That's a very insular comment, don't you think? I have the D800E and it is the perfect camera, IMO. I had the D700 and the D7000, but now, I only need the D800E as it covers both cameras.

What I don't get is all the whinging about Nikon just because Nikon doesn't suit their requirements in every possible aspect.

Tried shooting DX from a D800... didn't like it. Put the D300s back to my eye and started breathing normally again

Are you in DX mode, or in FX mode and crop later? I shoot birds (mainly) in FX and if I am going for DX in post process, I have no issue framing or using DX even though I know I will crop to DX later. In fact, I like the freedom it gives me to crop how much and exactly where i need it.

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Lance B
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to jfriend00, 9 months ago

jfriend00 wrote:

Lance B wrote:

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

I couldn't agree more. I think some just feel the need to whinge and gripe when things aren't exactly as they want. Problems of the first world!

Uhh, Nikon used to have two cameras (D300 and D700) that, with grip could do 8fps, had pretty decent buffer sizes and had Nikon's best AF and they were semi-affordable (less than $3000). These cameras were very good for people who shoot a lot of action. Because Nikon's AF was so good and the sensors in the day were pretty good, Nikon won a lot of customers who valued these attributes in a camera for what they shoot.

Now, Nikon has ZERO cameras in this category. You can get the D800 with very good AF and go 4fps with full sensor or the D610 with a step down in AF and 6fps. It's kind of easy to see why people that enjoyed the 8fps, great AF, good-sized buffer are having a hard time finding a new Nikon camera that serves as well for action.

My theory is that everything went high MP (24MP and higher) and the EXPEED 3 just couldn't go fast with the way they use it in the dSLR lineup so Nikon skipped a whole generation of speed cameras. I'm hoping they come back to semi-affordable speed cameras now that EXPEED 4 is available and it can easily go fast. Heck, EXPEED 4 could even do 8fps at 36MP (not that action photographers who shoot high fps want that many pixels, but EXPEED 4 could do that).

Anyway, there are customers who value these attributes and Nikon seems to have abandoned them unless you can spring for a $6000 D4 (which is beyond what most amateurs are going to pony up). Perhaps Nikon no longer cares to serve those action photographers or somehow thinks they can just downgrade them all to 4fps - I really don't know. I'm hoping that EXPEED 4 will enable a new generation of speed cameras and Nikon will once again have the best offerings in that space - but who knows what they're doing any more. They certainly aren't following any logical, predictable progressions in their product line.

Well, I guess they thought the market for 36Mp or 24Mp, was more important then the possibly limited 12Mp market who required higher frame rates. Judging by the success of the D800/E and the D600/610, I guess they were right.

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Lance B
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Joe Tam, 9 months ago

Joe Tam wrote:

I agree. I am a pro with almost 20 years experience.

The D4 is great but too big for most assignments.

Yet you use the D600 with grip to garner extra fps and complain about it being too small for f2.8 zooms. I find that curious, especially considering I use a D800E with my 300 f2.8 VRII, 70-200 f2.8 VRII, 80-400 f4.5-5.6 and my 500 f4 and wouldn't want a grip making it even bigger.

I know fellow shooters with the d800 who say the slower fps limits them in many situations when fast action is happening. The files are also too big for processing on the go and no option (like 5d) to shoot RAW in lower resolution.

Really? I wonder if it really hampers them or they just think they want faster rates for bragging rites. I shoot birds and birds in flight and not once have I ever wanted or required faster frame rates. The D800E is perfectly satisfactory.

The d610 is great but the grip is too small especially for bigger 2.8 zoom lenses. It also only uses SD cards and has a 16 shot RAW buffer. Recent dpreviewer posted 28-33 RAW buffer on 5d mk3.

Wow, and you talk about slowing up post processing due to the large files of the D800 and yet you'd have to go through so many more when using a 5D MKIII due to the higher frame rate nd large buffer. You can't ave it both ways.

I would love Nikon to answer to the 5d Mark 3. It features the best mix of size, megapixel and speed. It also has an incredibly quiet shutter.

I recently got the Panasnoic GX-7 and 12-24mm and love it because people do not pay attention to me on assignments. The D4 is very disruptive when I pull it out and I have been threatened because of the loud shutter sounds in the D700 and D3. The D4 is a quieter in quiet mode but not as quiet as 5d.

The poor darlings. I wonder how they coped in the film days with noisy shutters and motor drives!!

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jfriend00
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to Lance B, 9 months ago

Lance B wrote:

jfriend00 wrote:

Lance B wrote:

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

I couldn't agree more. I think some just feel the need to whinge and gripe when things aren't exactly as they want. Problems of the first world!

Uhh, Nikon used to have two cameras (D300 and D700) that, with grip could do 8fps, had pretty decent buffer sizes and had Nikon's best AF and they were semi-affordable (less than $3000). These cameras were very good for people who shoot a lot of action. Because Nikon's AF was so good and the sensors in the day were pretty good, Nikon won a lot of customers who valued these attributes in a camera for what they shoot.

Now, Nikon has ZERO cameras in this category. You can get the D800 with very good AF and go 4fps with full sensor or the D610 with a step down in AF and 6fps. It's kind of easy to see why people that enjoyed the 8fps, great AF, good-sized buffer are having a hard time finding a new Nikon camera that serves as well for action.

My theory is that everything went high MP (24MP and higher) and the EXPEED 3 just couldn't go fast with the way they use it in the dSLR lineup so Nikon skipped a whole generation of speed cameras. I'm hoping they come back to semi-affordable speed cameras now that EXPEED 4 is available and it can easily go fast. Heck, EXPEED 4 could even do 8fps at 36MP (not that action photographers who shoot high fps want that many pixels, but EXPEED 4 could do that).

Anyway, there are customers who value these attributes and Nikon seems to have abandoned them unless you can spring for a $6000 D4 (which is beyond what most amateurs are going to pony up). Perhaps Nikon no longer cares to serve those action photographers or somehow thinks they can just downgrade them all to 4fps - I really don't know. I'm hoping that EXPEED 4 will enable a new generation of speed cameras and Nikon will once again have the best offerings in that space - but who knows what they're doing any more. They certainly aren't following any logical, predictable progressions in their product line.

Well, I guess they thought the market for 36Mp or 24Mp, was more important then the possibly limited 12Mp market who required higher frame rates. Judging by the success of the D800/E and the D600/610, I guess they were right.

Who said anything about a 12MP market for new cameras?  I'm interested in a 24MP, 8fps, top AF, good-size buffer speed camera for less than $3500.

It is very clear from the math that the D800 and D610 are both going as fast as the EXPEED 3 can go the way they use it their dSLRs.  If you do the math, you can see that the D800, D610 and D7100 all process the EXACT same MP/s.  That's not a coincidence.  It's obviously a limitation of their EXPEED3 or sensor read-out hardware.  They didn't make the D800 only go 4fps at full sensor because they wanted it to be that slow.  They did it because they couldn't go faster at the time and they really wanted a 36MP product.  So, now it seems they have the technology to go faster so it will be interesting to see what they do with it.

The point of my post was to illustrate that a D800 doesn't come even close to replacing a D700 for those who value faster fps when shooting action and that's why those same shooters are asking for something Nikon isn't currently making and not buying Nikon's current products.  I'm offended that you call it whining when we stand up for features that we think are important to our shooting that are not in ANY of Nikon's current products for under $3500 when they use to be in two products in that price range.  Next time maybe you should attempt to understand the needs of other shooters before calling them names (or just avoid the name calling in the first place).

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Lance B
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Re: Don't understand Nikon
In reply to jfriend00, 9 months ago

jfriend00 wrote:

Lance B wrote:

jfriend00 wrote:

Lance B wrote:

cpkuntz wrote:

I don't understand for the life of me why certain people think that a D800 fails to replace the D700. It shoots 4 fps instead of 5 fps. This is seriously a deal breaker? If speed is your thing, get a D610. It shoots faster than the D700.

I couldn't agree more. I think some just feel the need to whinge and gripe when things aren't exactly as they want. Problems of the first world!

Uhh, Nikon used to have two cameras (D300 and D700) that, with grip could do 8fps, had pretty decent buffer sizes and had Nikon's best AF and they were semi-affordable (less than $3000). These cameras were very good for people who shoot a lot of action. Because Nikon's AF was so good and the sensors in the day were pretty good, Nikon won a lot of customers who valued these attributes in a camera for what they shoot.

Now, Nikon has ZERO cameras in this category. You can get the D800 with very good AF and go 4fps with full sensor or the D610 with a step down in AF and 6fps. It's kind of easy to see why people that enjoyed the 8fps, great AF, good-sized buffer are having a hard time finding a new Nikon camera that serves as well for action.

My theory is that everything went high MP (24MP and higher) and the EXPEED 3 just couldn't go fast with the way they use it in the dSLR lineup so Nikon skipped a whole generation of speed cameras. I'm hoping they come back to semi-affordable speed cameras now that EXPEED 4 is available and it can easily go fast. Heck, EXPEED 4 could even do 8fps at 36MP (not that action photographers who shoot high fps want that many pixels, but EXPEED 4 could do that).

Anyway, there are customers who value these attributes and Nikon seems to have abandoned them unless you can spring for a $6000 D4 (which is beyond what most amateurs are going to pony up). Perhaps Nikon no longer cares to serve those action photographers or somehow thinks they can just downgrade them all to 4fps - I really don't know. I'm hoping that EXPEED 4 will enable a new generation of speed cameras and Nikon will once again have the best offerings in that space - but who knows what they're doing any more. They certainly aren't following any logical, predictable progressions in their product line.

Well, I guess they thought the market for 36Mp or 24Mp, was more important then the possibly limited 12Mp market who required higher frame rates. Judging by the success of the D800/E and the D600/610, I guess they were right.

Who said anything about a 12MP market for new cameras? I'm interested in a 24MP, 8fps, top AF, good-size buffer speed camera for less than $3500.

It is very clear from the math that the D800 and D610 are both going as fast as the EXPEED 3 can go the way they use it their dSLRs. If you do the math, you can see that the D800, D610 and D7100 all process the EXACT same MP/s. That's not a coincidence. It's obviously a limitation of their EXPEED3 or sensor read-out hardware. They didn't make the D800 only go 4fps at full sensor because they wanted it to be that slow. They did it because they couldn't go faster at the time and they really wanted a 36MP product. So, now it seems they have the technology to go faster so it will be interesting to see what they do with it.

Well, if they don't have the computing power, then they don't have the power. Until they develop that, then there is little use in complaining.

The point of my post was to illustrate that a D800 doesn't come even close to replacing a D700 for those who value faster fps when shooting action and that's why those same shooters are asking for something Nikon isn't currently making and not buying Nikon's current products. I'm offended that you call it whining when we stand up for features that we think are important to our shooting that are not in ANY of Nikon's current products for under $3500 when they use to be in two products in that price range. Next time maybe you should attempt to understand the needs of other shooters before calling them names (or just avoid the name calling in the first place).

I admit I may have been a little over the top with the whining tag, but I really don't see that Nikon can do anything about it other than go back to lesser Mp's in order for the processor to be able to process the amount of info.

However, the shoe fits the other foot in that the OP was quite insular in their thoughts that everybody would want a high fps camera when clearly this is not the case at all. I think just about everyone who has a D800/E is more than happy with it and consider it the replacement of the D700, just as I do.

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 Lance B's gear list:Lance B's gear list
Nikon D800E Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +13 more
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