Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?

Started 9 months ago | Questions
AmateurArchitectural
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Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
9 months ago

I am using the Canon 24mm TS-E on an EOS 6D for architectural photography, mounted on a Manfrotto Junior 410 geared head.

I want to produce building interior panos avoiding the foreground parallax which makes it hard to stitch when you tripod-mount the body and shift left-right/up-down. As I understand it what I need to do is therefore keep the lens in the same position and move the back to reverse the effect of the lens movement.

Hejnar Photo makes an Arca-type plate for the Manfrotto 410, onto which I could then fix a clamp and rail. Would this basic set-up give me the precision to keep the lens in exactly the same place for each exposure, or should I carry the extra weight, bulk and cost of a geared macro rail?

To have the full range of shifted portrait and landscape, vertical and horizontal panos I was thinking of using an L-bracket, rotating the 410 head and its rail vertical to do vertical-shift panos in either format.

Having never used Arca-type kit I am nervous just to order as a gamble, so any advice from the experienced would be extremely welcome. I only want to take 1-row panos with shift (three exposures), so only need Arca-type movement in one axis. Being a non-driver and not rich I’m keen not to carry extras physically or financially.

Any thoughts on how to make sure I’m accurate about the movements would also be welcome, as I won’t know if I’ve got it right until PP.

Many thanks for your help.

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Canon EOS 6D Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II
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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to AmateurArchitectural, 9 months ago

In fact, do I need a rail at all or would I have 24mm total lateral movement available for the L-bracket within the 82mm clamp offered here?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Manfrotto-410-adapter-4-Kirk-Markins-Arca-Swiss-Wimberley-Acratech-foba-Benro-/231113164313?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35cf6b0619

Three questions:

1) Would there be a danger of clumsily dropping the camera when vertical?

2) Would it be possible to make the movements sufficiently precise?

3) Have I completely misunderstood the system!?

Thanks very much!

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Carey Brown
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to AmateurArchitectural, 9 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

I am using the Canon 24mm TS-E on an EOS 6D for architectural photography, mounted on a Manfrotto Junior 410 geared head.

I want to produce building interior panos avoiding the foreground parallax which makes it hard to stitch when you tripod-mount the body and shift left-right/up-down. As I understand it what I need to do is therefore keep the lens in the same position and move the back to reverse the effect of the lens movement.

Hejnar Photo makes an Arca-type plate for the Manfrotto 410, onto which I could then fix a clamp and rail. Would this basic set-up give me the precision to keep the lens in exactly the same place for each exposure, or should I carry the extra weight, bulk and cost of a geared macro rail?

To have the full range of shifted portrait and landscape, vertical and horizontal panos I was thinking of using an L-bracket, rotating the 410 head and its rail vertical to do vertical-shift panos in either format.

Having never used Arca-type kit I am nervous just to order as a gamble, so any advice from the experienced would be extremely welcome. I only want to take 1-row panos with shift (three exposures), so only need Arca-type movement in one axis. Being a non-driver and not rich I’m keen not to carry extras physically or financially.

Any thoughts on how to make sure I’m accurate about the movements would also be welcome, as I won’t know if I’ve got it right until PP.

Many thanks for your help.

You might want to check out the panorama brackets at Really Right Stuff (RRS).

http://reallyrightstuff.com/Items.aspx?code=PanoPkgs&key=cat

This page shows single row and multiple row kits with nodal slides.

You might want to request a printed catalog as it has better pictures and explanations.

RRS is pricy, you may only want to use them to get ideas, however I've found that the quality of their equipment is worth the price.

 Carey Brown's gear list:Carey Brown's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM +9 more
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Carey Brown
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shift-lens panos?
In reply to Carey Brown, 9 months ago

Are you trying to do a 3-image, single row pano by shifting the tilt-shift lens?

If so, you don't need a rail. Of course, in this case you would only shift the lens and not move the camera at all. No nodal point involved.

If, on the other hand, you are trying to take more than 3 images on a row and/or trying to take multiple rows, you would not shift the lens at all which means you'd do just as well with a plain old 24mm lens. In this case you'd need a rail and adjust to your setup's nodal point.

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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: shift-lens panos?
In reply to Carey Brown, 9 months ago

Yes, 3-image shifted panos is what I'm after. With interiors you can get quite big parallax effects if there are objects near the lens and you shift the lens but keep the body still, as the nodal point obviously moves left/right with the lens. That's why I'm wanting to keep the lens still and move the back.

Thanks for your recommendation of RRS. They do sound great. Anyone have experience of Hejnar? Are they good enough for a simple job like this? They're much cheaper and have some v good reviews.

Thanks!

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afoton
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to AmateurArchitectural, 9 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

In fact, do I need a rail at all or would I have 24mm total lateral movement available for the L-bracket within the 82mm clamp offered here?

24mm movement is no problem, even with a short clamp. It is the plate that have to be long enough. You don't want to have the plate outside of the locking screw on the clamp.

Three questions:

1) Would there be a danger of clumsily dropping the camera when vertical?

If you act clumsily, there offcourse will be a danger. But if you are a bit careful, there is no danger.

2) Would it be possible to make the movements sufficiently precise?

Yes

3) Have I completely misunderstood the system!?

From what you have written, I think you have understood it.

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afoton
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Re: shift-lens panos?
In reply to Carey Brown, 9 months ago

Carey Brown wrote:

Are you trying to do a 3-image, single row pano by shifting the tilt-shift lens?

If so, you don't need a rail. Of course, in this case you would only shift the lens and not move the camera at all. No nodal point involved.

When moving the lens, you also moving the nodal point, as that is a (actually two) point inside the lens.

But it is not the nodal point but the entrance pupil that has to be stationary for eliminating parallax error. Entrance pupil will offcourse also move when moving the lens.

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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to afoton, 9 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

In fact, do I need a rail at all or would I have 24mm total lateral movement available for the L-bracket within the 82mm clamp offered here?

24mm movement is no problem, even with a short clamp. It is the plate that have to be long enough. You don't want to have the plate outside of the locking screw on the clamp.

Three questions:

1) Would there be a danger of clumsily dropping the camera when vertical?

If you act clumsily, there offcourse will be a danger. But if you are a bit careful, there is no danger.

2) Would it be possible to make the movements sufficiently precise?

Yes

3) Have I completely misunderstood the system!?

From what you have written, I think you have understood it.

Brilliant! Thank you. There's my Christmas list sorted.

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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to afoton, 9 months ago

One last question - will a Sunwayfoto L-bracket and a 3.25" clamp give me enough latitude not to drop out of the side?

I suspect it should be OK?

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chkproductions
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to AmateurArchitectural, 9 months ago
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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to chkproductions, 9 months ago

Exactly what you're looking for

http://www.ppl.de/index.php/news/tse-adapter.html

Wow - it it PRECISELY what I'm looking for. It's so much pricier than the clumsier solution moving it within a clamp, though. I'll have to have a think.

Thank you!

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Carey Brown
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to chkproductions, 9 months ago

chkproductions wrote:

Exactly what you're looking for

http://www.ppl.de/index.php/news/tse-adapter.html

+1

I learned something. Thanks.

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Symple
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to chkproductions, 9 months ago

That is a very useful looking product.  I am a little late to the conversation and going back to the original post, the arca rail causes quite a bit of chatter when moving the camera on it unless the clamp is completely loose.  I used to use the 17/24/90 TS-E lenses and had an RRS rail and clamp, but using the geared macro rail was far better.  I had a special adapter plate that was manfrotto that adapted my 410 to arca clamp and while it was made to fit perfect, it all felt too top heavy with the 17 TS-E and 24 TS-E II.  The linked product looks like a fantastic solution.

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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to Symple, 9 months ago

That is a very useful looking product.  I am a little late to the conversation and going back to the original post, the arca rail causes quite a bit of chatter when moving the camera on it unless the clamp is completely loose.  I used to use the 17/24/90 TS-E lenses and had an RRS rail and clamp, but using the geared macro rail was far better.  I had a special adapter plate that was manfrotto that adapted my 410 to arca clamp and while it was made to fit perfect, it all felt too top heavy with the 17 TS-E and 24 TS-E II.  The linked product looks like a fantastic solution.

Thank you very much.

I'll start by getting the Manfrotto to Arca plate replacement from Hejnar, which I need for any of my three possible set-ups, and a Sunwayfoto L-bracket for D6 (Manfrotto 410 isn't at its best in portrait position or pointing up steeply, and L-bracket will escape both limitations).

I'll try some shifted panos with that set-up, to see if I can get the precision needed for a v good stitch.

If not I'll have a think about whether I can get by on a worm-screwed macro rail (150GBP from Kirk) or whether I can/should splash out for the 500+ Euro perfect solution above.

Many thanks for excellent advice from all. I'm always amazed how generous people are with their expertise on here. Really helpful and kind.

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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to chkproductions, 9 months ago

Exactly what you're looking for

http://www.ppl.de/index.php/news/tse-adapter.html

One footnote:

Looking closely at the specialist device it isn't completely right for my photography. It only does horizontal and vertical shift. I quite often want to do a shift of around 40 deg from the horizontal to both sides, in order to get a combination of wider coverage and some perspective correction upwards.

I can't really imagine a device which makes this really secure and easy, beyond noting the number of mm I need to move the rail for each different click of lens shift rotation.

Sorry that isn't clearer - TS-E users at least might understand!

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chkproductions
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to AmateurArchitectural, 9 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

Exactly what you're looking for

http://www.ppl.de/index.php/news/tse-adapter.html

One footnote:

Looking closely at the specialist device it isn't completely right for my photography. It only does horizontal and vertical shift. I quite often want to do a shift of around 40 deg from the horizontal to both sides, in order to get a combination of wider coverage and some perspective correction upwards.

I can't really imagine a device which makes this really secure and easy, beyond noting the number of mm I need to move the rail for each different click of lens shift rotation.

Sorry that isn't clearer - TS-E users at least might understand!

I would love to see an example of what you're trying to do.  I have experimented with a true pano head by Jasper Engineering.  I wanted to do interiors of standard size rooms with furniture in the foreground but without excessive distorted "stretch" on the left and right ends of the pano.  I am only using a standard wide angle in the 28mm range and doing 5 verticals stitched together.  I have come to the conclusion that in close quarters only 3 verticals stitched will give a "normal" look to but obviously not the width.

I'm still testing.

Cheers

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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to chkproductions, 9 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

Exactly what you're looking for

http://www.ppl.de/index.php/news/tse-adapter.html

One footnote:

Looking closely at the specialist device it isn't completely right for my photography. It only does horizontal and vertical shift. I quite often want to do a shift of around 40 deg from the horizontal to both sides, in order to get a combination of wider coverage and some perspective correction upwards.

I can't really imagine a device which makes this really secure and easy, beyond noting the number of mm I need to move the rail for each different click of lens shift rotation.

Sorry that isn't clearer - TS-E users at least might understand!

I would love to see an example of what you're trying to do.  I have experimented with a true pano head by Jasper Engineering.  I wanted to do interiors of standard size rooms with furniture in the foreground but without excessive distorted "stretch" on the left and right ends of the pano.  I am only using a standard wide angle in the 28mm range and doing 5 verticals stitched together.  I have come to the conclusion that in close quarters only 3 verticals stitched will give a "normal" look to but obviously not the width.

I'm still testing.

Cheers

Agreed that you end up with some things looking pretty odd at the limits, but the equivalent FOV of a 24mm TS-E fully shifted left-right in landscape is 15mm or so, which isn't outlandish for shooting interiors provided the important stuff is nearer the centre of the image. I tend to move furniture anyway if it's distracting in the foreground.

Here's a sample by someone else (I don't know if it's cropped a bit, though):

http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/neilta/6344409560/in/search_QM_q_IS_24mm+ts-e+panoramic_AND_mt_IS_all_AND_w_IS_all

This is someone's 14mm lens interior shot. The walls to each extreme are clearly near the limits of what looks good, but I think they're still within it. It's not for every shot, but there are definitely interiors which suit it, and exteriors where you can't get back far enough to get the full elevation, and stitching makes a difference.

I'll post some pics when I've got my basic set-up, after Christmas. Assuming they're worth posting...

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chkproductions
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to AmateurArchitectural, 9 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

This is someone's 14mm lens interior shot. The walls to each extreme are clearly near the limits of what looks good, but I think they're still within it. It's not for every shot, but there are definitely interiors which suit it, and exteriors where you can't get back far enough to get the full elevation, and stitching makes a difference.

I'll post some pics when I've got my basic set-up, after Christmas. Assuming they're worth posting...

A ultra wide angle can be used to success for a more editorial look.  But shooting for an interior designer or architect it often is that distortion that they don't like as it takes the space and makes it gigantic and stretched at the edges and then so small in the center of frame.  The T&S is the best way to go.  I was trying to experiment doing a T&S look with a pano head and a moderate wide.

Example

A 15x20 room

Sometimes it's successful and sometimes not.

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AmateurArchitectural
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to chkproductions, 9 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

This is someone's 14mm lens interior shot. The walls to each extreme are clearly near the limits of what looks good, but I think they're still within it. It's not for every shot, but there are definitely interiors which suit it, and exteriors where you can't get back far enough to get the full elevation, and stitching makes a difference.

I'll post some pics when I've got my basic set-up, after Christmas. Assuming they're worth posting...

A ultra wide angle can be used to success for a more editorial look.  But shooting for an interior designer or architect it often is that distortion that they don't like as it takes the space and makes it gigantic and stretched at the edges and then so small in the center of frame.  The T&S is the best way to go.  I was trying to experiment doing a T&S look with a pano head and a moderate wide.

Example

A 15x20 room

Sometimes it's successful and sometimes not.

That's a nice example - thanks.

I shoot to make the points I want (I'm an architectural historian) rather than in collaboration with the designers, so I suppose I'm a bit freer!

I agree though that shift is wonderful, and shift panos are the widest I'd want to go with most interiors.

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Hamburger
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Re: Will an Arca-type rail and clamp let me avoid parallax in shift-lens panos?
In reply to AmateurArchitectural, 8 months ago

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

AmateurArchitectural wrote:

This is someone's 14mm lens interior shot. The walls to each extreme are clearly near the limits of what looks good, but I think they're still within it. It's not for every shot, but there are definitely interiors which suit it, and exteriors where you can't get back far enough to get the full elevation, and stitching makes a difference.

I'll post some pics when I've got my basic set-up, after Christmas. Assuming they're worth posting...

A ultra wide angle can be used to success for a more editorial look. But shooting for an interior designer or architect it often is that distortion that they don't like as it takes the space and makes it gigantic and stretched at the edges and then so small in the center of frame. The T&S is the best way to go. I was trying to experiment doing a T&S look with a pano head and a moderate wide.

Example

A 15x20 room

Sometimes it's successful and sometimes not.

That's a nice example - thanks.

I shoot to make the points I want (I'm an architectural historian) rather than in collaboration with the designers, so I suppose I'm a bit freer!

I agree though that shift is wonderful, and shift panos are the widest I'd want to go with most interiors.

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