ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
NeroMetalliko
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ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
7 months ago

Hello,

I had previously noticed (and highlighted on the forum) that something was changing in the latest ACR versions regarding the color rendition of the red/orange/yellow tones for the most recent camera models. I supposed that this could be related to beta status of the software and I hoped that it could be fixed in the final 8.3 version (now officially supporting E-M1 and GM1), but unlucky I have verified that this is not the case.

I have started to see something wrong comparing the Imaging Resources RAW studio shot (the SLI000 ones) at base ISO of the E-M5 and the E-M1. By looking at the colored threads in the upper right zone, specifically the red, orange an yellow ones (the first three) it was evident that the E-M1 colors were "washed out" in comparison to the E-M5 ones.

But in my memory I was sure that a lot of other comparison I have done in the past between the E-M5 and a lot of other camera models (including Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax) were all reasonably good matching in this regard. Now something was changed.

For this reason I have decided to go more in deep and I have downloaded the RAW files from IR of their "SLI000" studio scene at base ISO (default NR) of the following cameras:

- Olympus E-M5, E-P5 and E-M1

- Panasonic GH3, GX7 and GM1

- Canon 5Dmk3, 6D and 70D

- Nikon D800E, D7100, D610 and D5300

- Sony A99, A7 and A7R

- Pentax K5IIs and K3

- Fuji X-M1

All these RAW files were developed in ACR 8.3 final, at default settings, but exposure and white balance set in order to have 200,200,200 in the second gray patch of the ColorChecker, with sharpening and noise reduction set to 0, and finally exported in ProPhotoRGB 16 bit tiff.

After that, I have cropped out the upper colored threads part of the scene from each file, resized it to a width of 1000pixel using bicubic, rotated/mirrored and collected all in a single big file for easy comparison.

In the following picture you can see the results, the file is max quality 8 bit jpeg still in ProPhotoRGB. I have labeled each camera crop.

ACR 8.3 final; RAW->ProPhotoRGB color rendition comparison

Look at the red and oranges threads, from left to right, and notice that after the black line, all the very recent camera models have changed their color rendition, specially in the red and orange threads.

Note that the very recent Nikon D610 file still keep the original color of the other Nikons (but the latest D5300 file has already got the "new" look). However the fact the D610 file has the same usual colors is very important because it is very recent (it is to date the latest completed review at IR) and this fact excludes that the observed effect could be related to some light changes in the studio scene (which is very stable over the years and well controlled obviously). In my opinion, a possible explanation could be that probably (and more simply) ACR 8.3 is still using for the D610 files exactly the same color scheme of the previous D600 files.

In the m43 area the recent E-M1 and GM1 files red/orange colors are definitely changed, the GX7 file is more similar to the standard (not washed out) color rendition, but with slightly less convincing tones than E-M5, E-P5 and GH3 files.

Sony latest A7 and A7R files color rendition are changed from A99 file.

All Canon camera files, including the latest 70D, have the standard rendition.

Even the Fuji X-M1 file is consistent with the standard rendition.

The latest Pentax K3 file has changed the colors too, if compared to the K5IIs which is matching the standard rendition.

In order to make the evaluation more evident I have tried to enable the gamut warning over the ProPhotoRGB file, soft-proofing it over the sRGB color space, the results are showed by the following screen-capture:

Wow, what a result: all the left sided group of camera files (with maybe the exception of the GX7, as already noted), which are what I call the standard rendition, are exceeding sRGB in the saturated red/orange/yellows, but the right sided group (the "washed out") is highly compressed inside the sRGB color space.

This is really disconcerting, because the threads and the lights are the same, only the camera was changed, but the ACR 8.3 developed the RAW files in very different way, and it is very difficult to believe that this is not something only "software" related to the latest ACR developments.

In my opinion this is not a good result: If I have two camera bodies (for example a D610 and a D5300 as backup, or a 5DmkIII and a E-M1) and I shoot in RAW the same scene in same lights, then processing the files using the same development workflow, even doing custom white balance over a ColorChecker target and finally I get washed out reds/oranges compressed in sRGB even when exporting a ProPhoto 16bit tiff I will not so happy...

In conclusion, I think this is an ACR problem and a not pleasant one, but, please, let me know your opinion, it will really appreciated.

I Hope this could be useful.

exdeejjjaaaa
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

NeroMetalliko wrote:

Hello,

I had previously noticed (and highlighted on the forum) that something was changing in the latest ACR versions regarding the color rendition of the red/orange/yellow tones for the most recent camera models.

just compare the versions of .dcp profiles between sequential releases of those... for example Adobe Standard for E-M1 went through at least 3 iterations (1 - copy of E-M5 profile, 2 - RC version, 3 - current final version)... what's to be surprised with ?

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jkrumm
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

On a more basic level, all I've noticed is that my EM1 files respond differently to color sliders in Lightroom. Green and aqua are more sensitive. Yellow is more distinct from green. And compared to my older Oly's orange and red is not nearly so prominent. "Olympus brown" was a phrase in the Olympus dslr forum back a while. Earth was usually rendered in a saturated way, lots of red and orange easily brought out in PP. Now it's perhaps more neutral.

Could it be the latest Sony sensors, not ACR?

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Thyraz
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

I also noticed something is different with new cameras i ACR.

My first observation was with the low light scene from the new dpreview comparison tool when I read the review of the Panasonic GM1.

The comparison showed surprising different results in the skin tones of the portrait photos in the dpreview test scene, compared to the Panasonic GX7 (which uses the same sensor, but is using the old color style in your theory).

I also hoped for a mistake in the Pre-Release of the new ACR.

As I received my GM1 a week ago I already made some tests myself.
Faces / Skin in LowLight are a real problem.
Orange and red tones are getting too similar and it's very hard to ge a red for lips without getting a very red skin tone too. (Which is similar to what we see in the dpreview test scene.)

But now with the final update of ACR and Lightroom, the problem still exists..
I will try to do some tests with another RAW Converter to see if it's really on Adobe's side.
But after your test this seems more probably than not.

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hinting
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

As you have done such a good comparison, please forward your findings to the adobe support so they can explain or correct the problems.

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RussAdams
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Have you reported
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

your findings to Adobe?

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tgutgu
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

To me the color differences are so subtle, that for most practical applications, they have no relevance. Nothing to worry about much.

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Thomas

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mcentral
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

Thanks for that investigation.

Don't know if this is helpful or not, but here's a photo showing the new camera profiles. In order, it goes: custom profile with color checker passport, adobe, camera natural, camera vivid.  I don't know how it compares to the camera jPEG look since I shoot with RAW, but just looking at these with the naked eye, the camera natural and camera vivid clearly are a little wacky.

The photos had the same basic exposure, sharpening, and lens profile adjustments.  No color adjustments.  Taken with an EPL5 with Rokinon 7.5 f3.5

custom profile

Adobe

Adobe Camera Natural

Adobe Camera Vivid

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agray88
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Re: Possible explanation
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

If I understand your post correctly, the older, standard ACR RAW iterations all saturate at least one channel on this scene, possibly showing the ease at which ACR previously would oversaturate. I presume that this is a bad thing, no? So the most recent cameras' ACR RAW profiles don't oversaturate, which should allow for more room with post manipulation, shouldn't it? I guess the down side is the tendency for the unadjusted RAW images reds and oranges to look "washed out", at least until a proper preset is done in LR which will take this tendency into account. This effect should be evident in flesh tones, especially. So in comparison, at least initially, the newer cameras look less saturated in RAW. In reality, the older iterations could be over saturated. That should allow the newer cameras to have more detail in red and orange. Am I off base here?

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NeroMetalliko
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to tgutgu, 7 months ago

tgutgu wrote:

To me the color differences are so subtle, that for most practical applications, they have no relevance. Nothing to worry about much.

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Thomas

Hello,

between the left and the right group you can get, for the orange as example, a color difference from

L 56; a 64; b 84

to

L 56; a 54; b 54

this means a deltaE of 31.6 (and a deltaE2000 of 8.5) for the orange colored thread.

For my standards this is not acceptable:

I am able to get deltaE2000 in the range between 1 to 2.5 in my custom made printer profiles (with reference to all the ColorChecher patches).

If this range of color variation is nothing to worry about for you, then you are right.

Regards.

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FrankParis
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Re: Possible explanation
In reply to agray88, 7 months ago

That's exactly what I thought. I was always disappointed by the oversaturation of reds in the E-M5 and so often had to tone them down. Reds look fabulous in the E-M1 under LR 5.3 on my LaCie 324.

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Frank Paris

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Phil
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Re: Possible explanation
In reply to FrankParis, 7 months ago

Frank,

Are you talking about fabulous with Adobe Standard or Oly Natural?

I am trying to decide if I want to do import from RAW using Natural rather than Adobe Standard.  Shooting the EM-1 with 12-40mm.  I take it I do not have to do CA adjustment anymore.

Your thoughts?

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jkrumm
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Re: Possible explanation
In reply to agray88, 7 months ago

I think, if I understand his original posts, that he was suggesting that the color gamut in raw is now compressed to sRGB levels, so you don't have the benefit of using wider color spaces. His post with the over-saturated threads was to show that the new camera profiles are not over-saturating even when they should be.

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John Krumm
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Thomas Niemann
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Just so you'll know...
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

I'm posting three images. The first is the image I downloaded, posted by the OP, by choosing Original Size. It was tagged with the sRGB color space. I'm posting to dpr by choosing Insert Image from Web.

For the next image I opened it in Photoshop and assigned a ProPhoto color space. If your browser supports color spaces then this should look markedly different.

For the next image I took the original, posted by the OP, assigned a ProPhoto color space, and then converted it to sRGB. This should work in any browser.

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NeroMetalliko
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everyone could try to replicate the results
In reply to Thomas Niemann, 7 months ago

Thanks Thomas,

my original first jpeg, the one I have attached in the post from my PC, was obviously in ProPhoto RGB colorspace, but I have tried to download it from my post and I have discovered it becomes (wrongly) tagged as sRGB, so the colors are completely messed out. I didn't considered that a picture not tagged as sRGB could loose their original colorspace when added in a post here.

So, an alternative way to look at the original colors I was referring in my post is, as you have right done, to download the picture in original size assigning the ProPhoto RGB colorspace to it, and then look at it in a color managed editor (possibly with a decently calibrated display).

Unlucky, even in this way the resulting colors will result still a little bit crippled (due to the ProPhoto -> sRGB gamut compression in the conversion) but the overall results are reasonably more matching the ProPhoto RGB original colors contained in the picture I have used to draw my arguments.

At this point, another possibility to successfully replicate my results is to do the following:

- download from IR for example the EM-5 ISO200 studio RAW file, as general representative of the "standard rendition" group:

http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/omd-em5/FULLRES/EM5hSLI00200NR2D.ORF

- download from IR the EM-1 ISO200 studio RAW file, as general representative of the "changed rendition" group:

http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/FULLRES/EM1hSLI00200NR2D.ORF

- open both RAW files in ACR and export them as 16 bit tiff in ProPhoto RGB.

- Look at the red/orange vertical threads, the difference is evident even if you don't do a fine exposure/white balance adjustments in ACR as I have done in my full comparison.

Any further comment is still welcome.

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NeroMetalliko
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This would be a problem...
In reply to agray88, 7 months ago

agray88 wrote:

If I understand your post correctly, the older, standard ACR RAW iterations all saturate at least one channel on this scene, possibly showing the ease at which ACR previously would oversaturate.

The main point is different: the current ACR process does apply different color weights to the RAW file for each different camera, but the final results of this task performed on RAW files of the latest added cameras produces very different red/oranges tones if compared to the past. We are speaking of a deltaE difference of 30 for the orange thread between the two groups. There is no "clipped" channel in what I have named the (usual) standard rendition, we are inside the ProPhoto RGB colorspace.

I presume that this is a bad thing, no? So the most recent cameras' ACR RAW profiles don't oversaturate, which should allow for more room with post manipulation, shouldn't it? I guess the down side is the tendency for the unadjusted RAW images reds and oranges to look "washed out", at least until a proper preset is done in LR which will take this tendency into account. This effect should be evident in flesh tones, especially. So in comparison, at least initially, the newer cameras look less saturated in RAW. In reality, the older iterations could be over saturated. That should allow the newer cameras to have more detail in red and orange. Am I off base here?

This could be something we could debate: but if you are right, this means that all the past years ACR RAW files of mostly all the cameras of any brand (which group I have named standard rendition) exported in ProPhotoRGB tiff using ACR defaults settings have oversaturated (now judged unrealistic) reds/oranges.

I dont't think so, but we could try a simple test, just try to download this IR indoor studio scene (including a red rose)

for E-M5 (assuming it as general representative of the usual standard rendition):

http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/omd-em5/FULLRES/EM5INBI00200.ORF

and for E-M1 (assuming it as general representative of the changed rendition):

http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/FULLRES/EM1INBI00200.ORF

Open both in ACR and export both as 16bit tiff using ProPhoto RGB, look in a color managed editor at the red rose color using a decently calibrated monitor and try to imagine the vibrant red color of a real red rose: which of the two is more matching an (imaginary at this point) real red rose color in your opinion? In my opinion none of them is perfect, but the E-M1 is the less convincing.

However,

even accepting in hypothetical way your interpretation that in the past Adobe has served us oversaturated reds/oranges as default and now changed his mind regarding this aspect, if this is the case, this should be publicly declared and a new 2014 process should be adopted with the new standard red/oranges rendition as default, but this MUST apply to ALL the camera RAW files developed in a cross platform consistent way (as always done in the past), not only to a bounce of latest RAW files which we have discovered showing changed red/oranges with no word mentioning it and compromising the cross platform consistency (that is a crucial feature for a RAW developer software).

So, at the moment we have two possibility:

- the past red/orange rendition is still the current/correct one, but the latest RAW fles supported are still not perfectly tuned in the ACR 8.3 release. This is still a problem but it could be fixed in a new revision being the changed RAW files to fine tune not so many.

- the past red/orange default rendition was superseded by the new one providing a less saturated rendition default, but this was not officially declared, never was a new process officially adopted, with the questionable result that currently only the latest RAW files are in sync with the new color scheme, breaking the cross platform consistency because all the previous RAW files are still handled in the previous different way: this is a still a problem and could be fixed announcing a new 2014 process or changing the color rendition of the (very numerous) other RAW files in a future ACR revision (but this second action would be a real pain for a lot of user).

In conclusion, choose the one or the another you prefer, but the current "out of sync" situation is in any case disappointing, in my humble opinion.

Any further comment is welcome/appreciated.

Regards.

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agray88
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Re: This would be a problem...
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

NeroMetalliko wrote:

agray88 wrote:

If I understand your post correctly, the older, standard ACR RAW iterations all saturate at least one channel on this scene, possibly showing the ease at which ACR previously would oversaturate.

The main point is different: the current ACR process does apply different color weights to the RAW file for each different camera, but the final results of this task performed on RAW files of the latest added cameras produces very different red/oranges tones if compared to the past. We are speaking of a deltaE difference of 30 for the orange thread between the two groups. There is no "clipped" channel in what I have named the (usual) standard rendition, we are inside the ProPhoto RGB colorspace.

I presume that this is a bad thing, no? So the most recent cameras' ACR RAW profiles don't oversaturate, which should allow for more room with post manipulation, shouldn't it? I guess the down side is the tendency for the unadjusted RAW images reds and oranges to look "washed out", at least until a proper preset is done in LR which will take this tendency into account. This effect should be evident in flesh tones, especially. So in comparison, at least initially, the newer cameras look less saturated in RAW. In reality, the older iterations could be over saturated. That should allow the newer cameras to have more detail in red and orange. Am I off base here?

This could be something we could debate: but if you are right, this means that all the past years ACR RAW files of mostly all the cameras of any brand (which group I have named standard rendition) exported in ProPhotoRGB tiff using ACR defaults settings have oversaturated (now judged unrealistic) reds/oranges.

I dont't think so, but we could try a simple test, just try to download this IR indoor studio scene (including a red rose)

for E-M5 (assuming it as general representative of the usual standard rendition):

http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/omd-em5/FULLRES/EM5INBI00200.ORF

and for E-M1 (assuming it as general representative of the changed rendition):

http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/FULLRES/EM1INBI00200.ORF

Open both in ACR and export both as 16bit tiff using ProPhoto RGB, look in a color managed editor at the red rose color using a decently calibrated monitor and try to imagine the vibrant red color of a real red rose: which of the two is more matching an (imaginary at this point) real red rose color in your opinion? In my opinion none of them is perfect, but the E-M1 is the less convincing.

However,

even accepting in hypothetical way your interpretation that in the past Adobe has served us oversaturated reds/oranges as default and now changed his mind regarding this aspect, if this is the case, this should be publicly declared and a new 2014 process should be adopted with the new standard red/oranges rendition as default, but this MUST apply to ALL the camera RAW files developed in a cross platform consistent way (as always done in the past), not only to a bounce of latest RAW files which we have discovered showing changed red/oranges with no word mentioning it and compromising the cross platform consistency (that is a crucial feature for a RAW developer software).

So, at the moment we have two possibility:

- the past red/orange rendition is still the current/correct one, but the latest RAW fles supported are still not perfectly tuned in the ACR 8.3 release. This is still a problem but it could be fixed in a new revision being the changed RAW files to fine tune not so many.

- the past red/orange default rendition was superseded by the new one providing a less saturated rendition default, but this was not officially declared, never was a new process officially adopted, with the questionable result that currently only the latest RAW files are in sync with the new color scheme, breaking the cross platform consistency because all the previous RAW files are still handled in the previous different way: this is a still a problem and could be fixed announcing a new 2014 process or changing the color rendition of the (very numerous) other RAW files in a future ACR revision (but this second action would be a real pain for a lot of user).

In conclusion, choose the one or the another you prefer, but the current "out of sync" situation is in any case disappointing, in my humble opinion.

Any further comment is welcome/appreciated.

Regards.

I applaud your well thought out breakdown of the situation. And I agree with you; either way it is a bit disconcerting. I wonder how the new ACR RAW iterations would compare with Olympus' Viewer 3?

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Paulmorgan
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, 7 months ago

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

NeroMetalliko wrote:

Hello,

I had previously noticed (and highlighted on the forum) that something was changing in the latest ACR versions regarding the color rendition of the red/orange/yellow tones for the most recent camera models.

just compare the versions of .dcp profiles between sequential releases of those... for example Adobe Standard for E-M1 went through at least 3 iterations (1 - copy of E-M5 profile, 2 - RC version, 3 - current final version)... what's to be surprised with ?

Were does adobe store its dcp profiles.

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Thyraz
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

Open an GM1 RAW file with an HEX Editor and change the "GM1" texts to "GX7".

When you open the RAW now, it shows the colors the old way..

Default GM1 setting from Lightroom, shifting red tones from the lips to the same orange as the skin

Hex-edited the SAME File as a fake-GX7-RAW which shows correct red tones with default settings in Lightroom

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rare wolf
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Re: ACR 8.3: reds/oranges color rendition changed on E-M1/GM1 (and other camera brand too)
In reply to NeroMetalliko, 7 months ago

I'd be careful about what you export as a wide gamut and then try to draw conclusions from via a smaller gamut. Even if monitor compensation works as it should you are introducing changes not totally under your control (eg, the gumut renderering engine)

Your primary point and proof are presented while you are in Lr development, or Ps ACR, and the gamut clips depending on which camera ACR believe it is developing! If this is true it should be discussed at the ACR forum(?)
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