NIKON D(A7/r)

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
user_name
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Re: Yes!
In reply to Cliff Fujii, 8 months ago

Cliff Fujii wrote:

That's not true. Nikon could build a mirrorless full frame camera with extended lens mount to accommodate the Nikkor F lenses. The FT-1 is a similar concept. The reverse is not true. You couldn't mount a Nikon 1 lens on a D800.

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Cliff

Yes, it can be done (as I said in my original post), but adding an adapter so you can use a larger (by mirrorless comparisons) F-mount lens kind of defeats the purpose of a small body the size of the Sony A7.

Nikon would still have to make new lenses specifically for that new body, just like they do for the Nikon 1 system.

I am not sure the market demand would be large enough for Nikon to do that (at least not now) and it would undoubtably drain some of the sales from the existing F-mount line, which could get tricky trying to balance the new line with the old.

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Stujomo
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Re: Yes!
In reply to user_name, 8 months ago

user_name wrote:

Cliff Fujii wrote:

That's not true. Nikon could build a mirrorless full frame camera with extended lens mount to accommodate the Nikkor F lenses. The FT-1 is a similar concept. The reverse is not true. You couldn't mount a Nikon 1 lens on a D800.

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Cliff

Yes, it can be done (as I said in my original post), but adding an adapter so you can use a larger (by mirrorless comparisons) F-mount lens kind of defeats the purpose of a small body the size of the Sony A7.

Nikon would still have to make new lenses specifically for that new body, just like they do for the Nikon 1 system.

I am not sure the market demand would be large enough for Nikon to do that (at least not now) and it would undoubtably drain some of the sales from the existing F-mount line, which could get tricky trying to balance the new line with the old.

I would probably be happy with a D600 sized mirrorless nikon if they got the EVF right. What I would want it for is accurate manual focus of my Ais Nikkors. I was looking at a NEX6 today and the EVF is much better than I remembered and so far ahead of my x100 EVF it's just not funny.

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john Clinch
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 8 months ago

olakiril2 wrote:

Nikon has produced some excellent DSLR cameras, but it lags behind in the mirrorless market. I have been searching for years a camera that will accompany me the most of the time like my old FE2 was, but nothing has met my needs. I am not stuck at the past and I don't mean retro. I mean a professional compact camera that will have a state of the art EVF and silent operation.

Size/weight is important for carrying the camera with me all the time.

EVF is important of for these low light situations that my eye is not sensitive enough. And these low light situations are actually where I shoot 1/3 of my pictures. My D800 covers the rest.

Silent is important so I can be as less obtrusive as possible.

Technology is already here, but a product is not. I recently tried an A7 but the loud shutter sound and the lousy shutter lag made it just a very expensive toy. Next in line is the X-E1/2 but the EVF is subpar.

Am I the only one? Wouldn't you at least consider a professional mirrorless compact D(A7) with a D4 sensor, EVF and cloth shutter?

I hear lot of people waning a camera like this and I'm sure Nikon will oblige. i assume it will have some sort of adaptor for older lenses. When this is removed it will take more modern shorter flange distance lenses. I

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becomeAchildAgain
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 8 months ago

Glad I found this thread as I was going to start one with a similar discussion.

I use my D3 and Nikon lenses for when I need them but otherwise have always been carrying my wife's Nex-5n (with Sigma 19/30, adapter and some micro AIS, AFD lenses).. Always preferred carrying the nex over my D300 which I just recently sold.. I liked the size of the nex and really liked the tilting screen.. never cared much for an EVF.. i guess i adapted to and enjoyed the 5N for what it is..

Wife insisted she wants her nex 100%, and so here I am..

I'd be very happy with a mirrorless camera and ONE native AF lens (28-35mm) plus the ability to use my nikon lenses via adapter for when I'm feeling creative.. it has to be an APS-C one at least..

I originally thought it will be a no brainer to go with the A7 since I liked the NEX line already and was used to the Sony colors.. However, I'm not feeling too convinced after having tried one.. the two reasons being: (1) the zeiss 35mm f2.8 is not so convincing at its price point, (2) there is some slowness about the A7, not sure if it is the shutter sound that is just giving me this impression, but something about it feels SLOW.. focusing seemed reasonably fast, this slowness is felt after it locked focus... i'm otherwise fine with it despite it being a little bigger than what i'm used to with the nex-5n..

i'm thinking I will try a nex-6 body in the short term and see how things develop with this new A7 line and particularly its lenses..

I held a NIkon DF but we never clicked really, it was too big for what I'd buy it for.. the one at the store was even a lemon :).. also for nostalgia, i just use my FE2 ..

cheers..

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dv312
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Nikon S2-D
In reply to olakiril2, 8 months ago

I wouldn't mind to see a digital S2 from Nikon

Similar body style with builtin EVF (in place of the RF)

Use same LCD/sensor as the Df

Af module from the series 1 (tweaked)

Flash shoe on top

Optional hand grip

Leatherette on body (silver or black)

Since the mount is new (or could they reuse the S mount?) and can't be F mount, Nikon can just launch a special limited edition with a few primes lenses (not unlike the Contax G): a 24mm f2.8, a 50mm f1.8 and a 85mm F1.8

Add an adapter for F mount if the demand is there

That camera would meet 90% of my needs

Cheers

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Grevture
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The answer is no ... For now
In reply to olakiril2, 8 months ago

olakiril2 wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

No disrespect to the OP, but it seems that many people have unrealistic expectations. They want the perfect, do everything camera, at a bargain price.

Consider that the OP has basically rejected 3 of the best cameras on the market today: the Nikon Df, the Sony A7/A7r, and the Fuji XE2, without really using either one for any meaningful period of time. All 3 of these cams are technological marvels, far beyond what we had only a few years ago.

I've read similar postings where any and every camera of a certain class is just rejected by someone, with barely a cursory glance. It seems one has one flaw, another a different flaw, etc. There's no consideration that engineering is about tradeoffs, and that it is difficult to give the consumer everything for a reasonable price point.

It's OK to be demanding about your purchases, and to expect more...and after all, technology will evolve at a rapid pace, and perhaps the OP will finally have their desired camera. Of course then the OP may complain about the price. Or by that time, because technology will have advanced, the expectations will be even higher.

I think as a whole we have become so accustomed, and many would say spoiled, by the rapid pace of our technology, that we want a huge breakthrough product virtually every day, and again, at a bargain price.

Even Steve Jobs noted that breakthrough products come along very infrequently...that's why they are considered breakthroughs!

First of all, you put a lot of words in my mouth...

As he himself responded, it was probably not at all his intention to be offensive.

To me it was more of a general comment on many posts similar to yours where posters ask for the moon and the stars, but only want to pay for a five stop bus ticket There has been a lot of such posts lately.

Second, I don't think I have unrealistic expectations given that all the points I mentioned are already well established in one way or another. I don't necessarily need a D4 sensor, since I am happy with the performance of the D800 or even the D600. I see you mention the price but I didn't because if the product is right then price is not that important. I need something professional grade so I expect the price to be high.

You also mention 3 of the best cameras on the market today which I tend to find really good too. Problem is that Df is not that different from my D800 in the compactness, loudness or the lack of EVF so I can't really even consider it.

Indeed I only briefly tried the A7. The only thing I can say is that the 0.25 seconds shutter lag in manual focus mode makes it impossible for me to use it with anything other that stationary objects.

As so often with Sony, they release cameras which are almost, but not quite what many of us would love. It almost is as if they release beta test level products, and then never really get around to build the finished final product. The A7/A7r to me is a confusing and frustrating mix of 80% shear brilliance (size, weight, sensor, image performance), and 20% stupidity (AF, overall handling). They could be such great cameras with just some finishing touches.

Lastly, I do consider the X-E2 and I will probably try one, I just mentioned the sub-par quality of the EVF.

The main point of my post was this: I make the observation that NIKON can provide fine products for professionals but has not done so in a mirrorless design. Then I pose the question whether there is a market for a professional mirrorless camera like the one I described. This is a straight forward question without any flaming content so I expect reasonable answers.

Both Canon and Nikon seem to think the answer to your question so far has been no, the market is not yet really ready for a pro grade mirrorless product. But you can bet they both monitor the market reception of the A7/A7R very closely. Th A7/A7R probably is not to far away conceptually from a mirrorless model they both would like to see in their lineups - but I also think they are wary to release a camera aimed at a pro market with what they perceive as sub-par AF and EVF. And the solution for that can be a bit in the future still.

Nikons current mirrorless (Nikon 1) is more aimed to plug the gap between their entry level DSLR cameras and their Coolpix range. My guess their next step in the mirrorless arena could be something like a video-oriented aps-c and f-mount model aimed at enthusiasts (something like a pricier D5300 with a lot of video oriented features but no mirror), or a cheap entry level cameras with aps-c and f-mount (a D1000 with rudimentary functionality and a very compact kit zoom using the space where the mirror used to be).

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john Clinch
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Re: Nikon S2-D
In reply to dv312, 8 months ago

dv312 wrote:

I wouldn't mind to see a digital S2 from Nikon

Similar body style with builtin EVF (in place of the RF)

Use same LCD/sensor as the Df

Af module from the series 1 (tweaked)

You mean the on chip PDAF as in the Nikon 1. Something like that would be good. As I understand it some kind of PDAF will be needed to focus the current Af lenses rapidly. I think that's one of the reasons we are waiting. Well I'm not i far to mean to spend real money on cameras. But I think nikon want their FX mirrorless to have PDAF so they don't have to sell lenses optimized for CDAF as an interim solution

Flash shoe on top

Optional hand grip

Leatherette on body (silver or black)

Since the mount is new (or could they reuse the S mount?) and can't be F mount, Nikon can just launch a special limited edition with a few primes lenses (not unlike the Contax G): a 24mm f2.8, a 50mm f1.8 and a 85mm F1.8

Add an adapter for F mount if the demand is there

That camera would meet 90% of my needs

Cheers

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cerberusjf
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 8 months ago

Yes, probably! But I'd be almost as happy if Nikon worked on making their "quiet mode" a lot quieter. I would have thought that it would have been possible. A truly quiet more is an advantage for Canon for events like weddings, Nikon don't seem to be that interested in trying to compete though.

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Cliff Fujii
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Re: Yes!
In reply to user_name, 8 months ago

The problem with putting a Nikkor 1 lens on an F body is that the mirror will not have any room to operate. If you are willing to forgo the normal focusing range, you can mount a Nikkor 1 lens far enough for the mirror to operate but it will be like putting extension tubes on the lens.

There would be a lot of resistance to introduce yet another lens type to the Nikon line. I myself would not be interested in such a setup because I don't see any up side to owning such a camera vs. owing the current F body and the nice assortment of lenses that I already have.

I'm actually quite satisfied with my D800/Df combo. They seem to complement each other very well.

BTW...I just weighed my F3HP and it weighs 784g.  The Df weighs 710g so the F3 is actually heavier than the Df.

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Cliff

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Cliff Fujii
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Re: Yes!
In reply to Stujomo, 8 months ago

They could make a Df sized mirrorless with removable focusing screens like the Nikkormat.  I think the Df has a removable focusing screen because when I looked into the mirror chamber, I see something that looks like a locking mechanism for the frame that holds in the focusing screen.

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Cliff

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dv312
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What happened to the A7?
In reply to olakiril2, 8 months ago

Surprisingly, it didn't even make it to the list of Most Popular Cameras on the side margin here?

Was that a mistake or is it really not that 'popular'? due to the lack of lenses like the NEX before it?

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Alpha Tech
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Re: What happened to the A7?
In reply to dv312, 8 months ago

You are looking in the wrong place. The A7 is getting plenty of attention. It even received a prominent mention in Rangefinder magazine (which actually has very little to do with rangefinder cameras). Speaking of side margins, are you not looking to the right? Scroll down and view the link "First Impressions Review, Sony A7/A7R: The New Regime."

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olakiril2
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Re: Yes!
In reply to Cliff Fujii, 8 months ago

Cliff Fujii wrote:

They could make a Df sized mirrorless with removable focusing screens like the Nikkormat. I think the Df has a removable focusing screen because when I looked into the mirror chamber, I see something that looks like a locking mechanism for the frame that holds in the focusing screen.

Even Df size would be fine yes.

I guess Dfs focusing screen can be removed as can in the D800. A couple of problems though: It is not meant to be user replaceable, so not only it is pain in the @ss but also they have aligned it with some shims that you will have to figure out how to put them back. And even if we wanted to go through this trouble, there is currently no other proper focusing screen to replace it with. DK-17M has saved me for now in the D800 and I guess it will help a lot in the Df too.

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Cliff Fujii
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Re: Yes!
In reply to olakiril2, 8 months ago

with my D800, I used Nikon Camera Control Pro with the Microsoft Surface Pro.  A great combination that allowed me to see a magnified view of what the camera sees.  I can even take the photograph from the Surface Pro.  It works great for focus stacking but I wouldn't want to use it to photograph any action.  Of course, the DK-17M would not be great for action also.

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Cliff

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Grevture
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Keep in mind ...
In reply to dv312, 8 months ago

dv312 wrote:

Surprisingly, it didn't even make it to the list of Most Popular Cameras on the side margin here?

Was that a mistake or is it really not that 'popular'? due to the lack of lenses like the NEX before it?

... the A7 and A7R are in the grand scheme of things niche cameras aimed at a small but very vocal group of users. You will read a lot about them in these forums, in blogs and in reviews, but in terms of sales it still a niche camera.

Looking at the side margin I would argue the real mystery is why another niche camera - the Nikon Df - attracts so much attention ...

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By the way, film is not dead.
It just smells funny

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olakiril2
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

Fuji delivered:

fujirumors.com/hot-first-real-image-of-the-x-t1-on-japanese-newspaper/

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Matsu
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Mirrorless and DSLR lens compared.
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago
No text.
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Matsu
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Re: Mirrorless and DSLR lens compared. EDIT w/ text
In reply to Matsu, 7 months ago

Somehow my browser ate the text for the above post, so I'll try again here.

Where comparable mirrorless and DSLR lens designs exist there is very little if any size difference.

Few comparables actually exist once we account for AF motors, lens speed, aperture, focal length, and most importantly image area (sensor size). They come down to Sony's 5 existing full frame e-mount lenses.

Here's how they compare to the closest existing Nikon F mount lens.

Sony's 28-70 f/3.5-5.6 and 24-70 f/4 weigh 426g and measure 73x95mm

Nikon's 24-85 f/3.5-4.5 VR weighs 465g and measures 78x82mm

The Nikon is marginally heavier and marginally smaller in overall volume. This despite being faster overall than the variable Sony, and of longer range than both.

Sony's 70-200 f/4 weighs 840g and measures 80mmx175mm

Nikon's 70-200 f/4 weighs 850g and measures 78mmx178.5mm

Again, these are the same size and weight. The Nikon is negligibly heavier and again of negligibly less volume. A trend, maybe?

Let's see...

Sony's 55mm f/1.8 weighs 281g and measures 64x71mm

Nikon's 50mm f/1.8G weighs 185g and measures 72.1x52.4mm

Wow, if anything, the Nikon s the compact option in this comparison, it weighs nearly a 1/3rd less and has less overall volume.

And the last comparison...

Sony's 35mm f/2.8 weighs 120g and measures 62x37mm

Nikon's (just announced) 35mm f/1.8 weighs 305g and measures 72x72mm

Finally, the first genuinely compact Sony FE lens. The Nikon is twice as large and 2.5X as heavy. But, it's also 1.3 stops faster! It seems that the only way for Sony to make a lens small was to make it slower, significantly so.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that any of these Sony lenses are bad, I expect some to be exceptionally well corrected, the 55mm springs to mind here, just that flange focal distance doesn't appear to lead to smaller lenses.

Nikon has the small prime set covered. It's not completely updated, no small and modern 18mm, 20mm, or 24mm exist yet. However, the 20mm f/2.8D is quite decent, and so far all of the f/1.8 designs are both small, fast, and sharp. That covers a lot of ground: 20, 28, 35, 50, and 85. Most of the classic focal lengths for a street shooter.

What's missing is the camera to mount them on - they could do a lot better here.

Modern DSLRs are very poorly integrated inside. Too many boards, too many ribbons, very little sub assembly optimization. I'll wager that it's not any of the mirror-box and pentaprism legacy that bulks them up, nor for that matter the AF sub assembly. These are fixed dimensions and they define only the minimum thickness, and to a lesser extent the height - depending on the type of pentaprism or viewfinder the future holds, including EVF.

A Nikon FM is 60mm deep. The registration distance of all F mount cameras is 46.5mm. That leaves 13.5mm of depth to fill for a DSLR camera with the same depth as film cameras that were universally considered more than compact enough - remember 35mm SLRs were the compact option for most of their existence. I have an iPad Air and an iPhone 5 on my desk. Have you seen what Apple fits into just over half that thickness? 13.5mm is spacious by comparison.

DSLRs were and are large for only two reasons, neither of which have much to do with the inherent operation of an SLR mechanism. At first, they were literally electronics grafted onto film cameras, and those electronics were large. They've since shrunk, profoundly, but something of the "grafted on" mentality still exists in the engineering and production side. Secondly, the marketing side adheres to something of a large=professional/serious equation. Some of this is simply practical, some of the largest lenses need a bigger camera in the interest of ergonomic sanity. The rest is a little bit of contemporary bias. With newer and increasingly capable small cameras, a portion of the audience will expect "professional" performance in a smaller package.

Nikon is about half way there. They have the lenses, now they need the body.

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RichRMA
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

The top Olympus is far better, at least as far as the physical operation is concerned.  As for Nikon, if they cared about mirrorless they never would have released that toy, the V1/2.

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Donald Chin
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to RichRMA, 7 months ago

RichRMA wrote:

The top Olympus is far better, at least as far as the physical operation is concerned. As for Nikon, if they cared about mirrorless they never would have released that toy, the V1/2.

Even though I don't own any Nikon 1, but comparing with other mirrorless toys, Nikon 1 isn't the worst.

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