NIKON D(A7/r)

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
olakiril2
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NIKON D(A7/r)
7 months ago

Nikon has produced some excellent DSLR cameras, but it lags behind in the mirrorless market. I have been searching for years a camera that will accompany me the most of the time like my old FE2 was, but nothing has met my needs. I am not stuck at the past and I don't mean retro. I mean a professional compact camera that will have a state of the art EVF and silent operation.

Size/weight is important for carrying the camera with me all the time.

EVF is important of for these low light situations that my eye is not sensitive enough. And these low light situations are actually where I shoot 1/3 of my pictures. My D800 covers the rest.

Silent is important so I can be as less obtrusive as possible.

Technology is already here, but a product is not. I recently tried an A7 but the loud shutter sound and the lousy shutter lag made it just a very expensive toy. Next in line is the X-E1/2 but the EVF is subpar.

Am I the only one? Wouldn't you at least consider a professional mirrorless compact D(A7) with a D4 sensor, EVF and cloth shutter?

Fujifilm X-E1 Nikon D4 Nikon D800 Sony Alpha 7
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Alpha Tech
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

olakiril2 wrote:

Am I the only one? Wouldn't you at least consider a professional mirrorless compact D(A7) with a D4 sensor, EVF and cloth shutter?

I would like one of those without a cloth shutter, though. I currently own the V1 and V2, and plan to buy the A7R. Maybe also add the V3, if I like it. My ideal would be a mirrorless D5 with EVF.

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user_name
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Yes!
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

I am looking for the same thing you are.

The A7 is a great concept, but this iteration has too many issues. Maybe the next time.

Thought the Df might be close enough for that job, but too many compromises for my taste.

When you get down to it, I don't think there will really be anything from Nikon with an F mount as the lens tail to sensor distance is too long for a compact the size of the A7r.

That pretty much means yet another line of lenses, so the whole idea means a huge engineering effort to develop both the body and the lenses.

You can use an adapter, but that just makes the whole lens assembly longer and defeats the purpose of a small body.

I think Fuji may be courting a full-frame sensor at some point in the future, but I expect that will be at least one to two years out.

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Thoughts R Us
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Unrealistic Expectations
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

No disrespect to the OP, but it seems that many people have unrealistic expectations.  They want the perfect, do everything camera, at a bargain price.

Consider that the OP has basically rejected 3 of the best cameras on the market today: the Nikon Df, the Sony A7/A7r, and the Fuji XE2, without really using either one for any meaningful period of time. All 3 of these cams are technological marvels, far beyond what we had only a few years ago.

I've read similar postings where any and every camera of a certain class is just rejected by someone, with barely a cursory glance.  It seems one has one flaw, another a different flaw, etc.  There's no consideration that engineering is about tradeoffs, and that it is difficult to give the consumer everything for a reasonable price point.

It's OK to be demanding about your purchases, and to expect more...and after all, technology will evolve at a rapid pace, and perhaps the OP will finally have their desired camera.  Of course then the OP may complain about the price.  Or by that time, because technology will have advanced, the expectations will be even higher.

I think as a whole we have become so accustomed, and many would say spoiled, by the rapid pace of our technology, that we want a huge breakthrough product virtually every day, and again, at a bargain price.

Even Steve Jobs noted that breakthrough products come along very infrequently...that's why they are considered breakthroughs!

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Peter Hayward
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

Well, now I know there are at least two of us wanting this camera

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Rexgig0
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NIKON D-mirror-less
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

I would consider anything with a D4 sensor, within reason. An EVF would have to be truly excellent, at least as good as the Olympus VF4/OM-D EM1. An electronic shutter can be nicely quiet. Our Nikon A is very nearly silent; I usually cannot hear it when my wife is using the camera quite close to me.

As for body thickness, I think too much fuss is made over compactness. The Df is already on the edge of being too dinky for me to want to use hand-held, and many reviewers seem to agree that the Df is best used with small prime lenses. (I have handled a Df.)

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VinnieJ
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

Anything smaller than the D600/Df size is too small for me to use with any comfort. I've tried many mirrorless and have sent them all back for this reason. We obviously all have our preferences, I just don't think nikon will be able to accommodate everyone.

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olakiril2
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Re: Unrealistic Expectations
In reply to Thoughts R Us, 7 months ago

Thoughts R Us wrote:

No disrespect to the OP, but it seems that many people have unrealistic expectations. They want the perfect, do everything camera, at a bargain price.

Consider that the OP has basically rejected 3 of the best cameras on the market today: the Nikon Df, the Sony A7/A7r, and the Fuji XE2, without really using either one for any meaningful period of time. All 3 of these cams are technological marvels, far beyond what we had only a few years ago.

I've read similar postings where any and every camera of a certain class is just rejected by someone, with barely a cursory glance. It seems one has one flaw, another a different flaw, etc. There's no consideration that engineering is about tradeoffs, and that it is difficult to give the consumer everything for a reasonable price point.

It's OK to be demanding about your purchases, and to expect more...and after all, technology will evolve at a rapid pace, and perhaps the OP will finally have their desired camera. Of course then the OP may complain about the price. Or by that time, because technology will have advanced, the expectations will be even higher.

I think as a whole we have become so accustomed, and many would say spoiled, by the rapid pace of our technology, that we want a huge breakthrough product virtually every day, and again, at a bargain price.

Even Steve Jobs noted that breakthrough products come along very infrequently...that's why they are considered breakthroughs!

First of all, you put a lot of words in my mouth...

Second, I don't think I have unrealistic expectations given that all the points I mentioned are already well established in one way or another. I don't necessarily need a D4 sensor, since I am happy with the performance of the D800 or even the D600. I see you mention the price but I didn't because if the product is right then price is not that important. I need something professional grade so I expect the price to be high.

You also mention 3 of the best cameras on the market today which I tend to find really good too. Problem is that Df is not that different from my D800 in the compactness, loudness or the lack of EVF so I can't really even consider it.

Indeed I only briefly tried the A7. The only thing I can say is that the 0.25 seconds shutter lag in manual focus mode makes it impossible for me to use it with anything other that stationary objects.

Lastly, I do consider the X-E2 and I will probably try one, I just mentioned the sub-par quality of the EVF.

The main point of my post was this: I make the observation that NIKON can provide fine products for professionals but has not done so in a mirrorless design. Then I pose the question whether there is a market for a professional mirrorless camera like the one I described. This is a straight forward question without any flaming content so I expect reasonable answers.

Cheers

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olakiril2
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to VinnieJ, 7 months ago

VinnieJ wrote:

Anything smaller than the D600/Df size is too small for me to use with any comfort. I've tried many mirrorless and have sent them all back for this reason. We obviously all have our preferences, I just don't think nikon will be able to accommodate everyone.

Valid point. I understand that too small can be uncomfortable for a camera, and I have felt the same with few of the mirrorless designs. There are many different hand sizes to so finding the balance is hard.

It is much easier thought to make a small camera bigger and more comfortable to hold with a grip than make it smaller.

So I would prefer a camera with a small design so I can carry it with me all the time, and the periods that I do extensive shooting I would add the grip.

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olakiril2
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Re: Yes!
In reply to user_name, 7 months ago

user_name wrote:

I am looking for the same thing you are.

The A7 is a great concept, but this iteration has too many issues. Maybe the next time.

Thought the Df might be close enough for that job, but too many compromises for my taste.

When you get down to it, I don't think there will really be anything from Nikon with an F mount as the lens tail to sensor distance is too long for a compact the size of the A7r.

Not necessarily. I would be happy with an FE2 size and it can be done if the LCD is only included with the add on grip. But that might be too much since I rarely use it whereas other people depend on it.

That pretty much means yet another line of lenses, so the whole idea means a huge engineering effort to develop both the body and the lenses.

Valid point. But that could give them the opportunity to sell more lenses..

You can use an adapter, but that just makes the whole lens assembly longer and defeats the purpose of a small body.

Yep. Same as in A7/r.

I think Fuji may be courting a full-frame sensor at some point in the future, but I expect that will be at least one to two years out.

Indeed, it looks like Fuji is on top of this market.

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Manfred Bachmann
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

olakiril2 wrote:

Nikon has produced some excellent DSLR cameras, but it lags behind in the mirrorless market. I have been searching for years a camera that will accompany me the most of the time like my old FE2 was, but nothing has met my needs. I am not stuck at the past and I don't mean retro. I mean a professional compact camera that will have a state of the art EVF and silent operation.

Size/weight is important for carrying the camera with me all the time.

EVF is important of for these low light situations that my eye is not sensitive enough. And these low light situations are actually where I shoot 1/3 of my pictures. My D800 covers the rest.

Silent is important so I can be as less obtrusive as possible.

Technology is already here, but a product is not. I recently tried an A7 but the loud shutter sound and the lousy shutter lag made it just a very expensive toy. Next in line is the X-E1/2 but the EVF is subpar.

Am I the only one? Wouldn't you at least consider a professional mirrorless compact D(A7) with a D4 sensor, EVF and cloth shutter?

A dslr is a dslr and this never will change! If you want a ml with evf buy a olyfuso, i will stick with dslr`s.

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Cliff Fujii
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

apparently there isn't a large Nikon market for mirrorless cameras.  bythom.com has said much about Nikon's success in marketing mirrorless cameras.  I have a V2 and I like it but my D800/Df are used for about 98% of my imaging.  I like the OVF and until Nikon makes a mirrorless camera with one, I'm not in the market.  I'm sure there are others that would like a professional Nikon mirrorless camera.  If you want a quiet camera, Leica makes one.  The Nikon 1 series has very short shutter lag but it has a small 1" sensor.  I can still use my professional Nikon lenses with the V2 via the FT-1 and the EVF is acceptable but I really like FF.  I do a lot with wide angles and the small sensor market just doesn't have a lot of selection.  I'm also not interested in cloth shutters.  I had enough of them in the 80s with Pentax cameras and I prefer titanium or carbon fiber shutters.

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Cliff Fujii
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Re: Yes!
In reply to user_name, 7 months ago

That's not true.  Nikon could build a mirrorless full frame camera with extended lens mount to accommodate the Nikkor F lenses.  The FT-1 is a similar concept.  The reverse is not true.  You couldn't mount a Nikon 1 lens on a D800.

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Cliff

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Cliff Fujii
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

Another thing not to forget is that PRO cameras have a lot of dedicated buttons.  This keeps the photographer from having to go to the menu to make changes.  Small cameras have less real estate to mount buttons.

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Cliff

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shigzeo ?
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Re: Yes!
In reply to Cliff Fujii, 7 months ago

Cliff Fujii wrote:

That's not true. Nikon could build a mirrorless full frame camera with extended lens mount to accommodate the Nikkor F lenses. The FT-1 is a similar concept. The reverse is not true. You couldn't mount a Nikon 1 lens on a D800.

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Cliff

You could but it would only work at macro distances and would have peripheral vignetting.

I would welcome an F-mount mirror less camera as long as the EVF was massive, extremely high resolution and the camera was the size and build quality of an FE. I wish Nikon would make a perfectly niche camera for those of us who shot with SLR cameras when SLRs were small and compact and well made. For those of us who wonder why today's smallest DSLRs are much much larger than the standard FE/M of the day.

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pluton
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

olakiril2 wrote:

Nikon has produced some excellent DSLR cameras, but it lags behind in the mirrorless market.

That's because the mirrorless market lags behind all other camera market segments.

Mirrorless is a disaster, business-wise, in Europe and North America.

Don't get me wrong: I've got a Fuji XE1 and a couple of lenses and they're great for informal carry-around use. But the operational performance is not professional-level, and barely acceptable: 12 button pushes to reformat a card? Really Fuji?

I'd pay more for a higher functioning body...I'm waiting and watching.

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-KB-

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olakiril2
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Re: NIKON D(A7/r)
In reply to pluton, 7 months ago

pluton wrote:

I'd pay more for a higher functioning body...I'm waiting and watching.

Same here.

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venice
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Negligible shutter lag
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

Lucky for me that my A7 has negligible shutter lag in MF mode when using the electronic first curtain.

Of course, for most fast moving sports I'll stick with my D4 for now.

-Bill

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Thoughts R Us
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Re: Unrealistic Expectations
In reply to olakiril2, 7 months ago

olakiril2 wrote

First of all, you put a lot of words in my mouth...

Second, I don't think I have unrealistic expectations given that all the points I mentioned are already well established in one way or another. I don't necessarily need a D4 sensor, since I am happy with the performance of the D800 or even the D600. I see you mention the price but I didn't because if the product is right then price is not that important. I need something professional grade so I expect the price to be high.

You also mention 3 of the best cameras on the market today which I tend to find really good too. Problem is that Df is not that different from my D800 in the compactness, loudness or the lack of EVF so I can't really even consider it.

Indeed I only briefly tried the A7. The only thing I can say is that the 0.25 seconds shutter lag in manual focus mode makes it impossible for me to use it with anything other that stationary objects.

Lastly, I do consider the X-E2 and I will probably try one, I just mentioned the sub-par quality of the EVF.

The main point of my post was this: I make the observation that NIKON can provide fine products for professionals but has not done so in a mirrorless design. Then I pose the question whether there is a market for a professional mirrorless camera like the one I described. This is a straight forward question without any flaming content so I expect reasonable answers.

Cheers

Sorry...did not mean to offend.  It's just that I read some of these posts whereby someone writes that camera A isn't good due to this lack, camera B isn't good due to lacking something else, camera C isn't good due to another reason...etc...

You are correct in that you were very respectful in your post.

One very minor point: The Df is different from the D800 in weight, about 33% less...

As to whether a market for such a mirrorless exists...well, at least in the US, it seems that mirrorless is not taking off that well.  And what you describe would be a high end FF mirrorless, which would mean an even smaller potential market.  Given that Canon has basically pulled its EOS M out of the US market, and according to Thom Hogan, Nikon may do the same with its next version of the Nikon 1 V series...it's not looking good to have Nikon or Canon release any good mirrorless models anytime soon, at least in the US.

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olakiril2
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Re: Unrealistic Expectations
In reply to Thoughts R Us, 7 months ago

Thoughts R Us wrote:

As to whether a market for such a mirrorless exists...well, at least in the US, it seems that mirrorless is not taking off that well. And what you describe would be a high end FF mirrorless, which would mean an even smaller potential market. Given that Canon has basically pulled its EOS M out of the US market, and according to Thom Hogan, Nikon may do the same with its next version of the Nikon 1 V series...it's not looking good to have Nikon or Canon release any good mirrorless models anytime soon, at least in the US.

Thanks for the input.

Certainly, I can't see DSLRs getting out of the game anytime soon. Nothing can replace the OVF today. You could be right and the market might be small.

But I see a lot of interest for cameras such as Fuji Xs, Sony A7s, Olympus OM-Ds so it cannot be that small that is not worth exploring from companies that have capital to invest. Here is a interesting analysis.

Sure they have tried with EOS M and NIKON 1 series, but are these even comparable to their professional lines?

It looks like the low end consumer market has dominated their focus in the mirrorless design at least.

Cheers

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