Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
10 months ago

I'm putting two recent posts I've made together because I feel its pretty useful information in regards to AF capability and AF point selection on the 6D. The 6D AF is often panned as inferior to the D600 and pretty much rebel grade for being single cross point 11 AF points overall, etc. So I am going to cover AF customizations that are obviously there but never mentioned and some points to bear in mind.

Lets see the Nikon D6x0 has Release priority or Focus Priority and nothing inbetween. Most Canon entry levels cannot do MFA much less have any of the following options.

Canon 6D has -

Release, Focus, or *equal* priority for 1st shot or all subsequent shots in a burst. Yes you can actually change your priority on the subsequent shots vs the '1st' shot...meaning your 1st shot can be set to focus priority, and subsequent shots to release, or anywhere in between.

Canon 6D has AF-tracking settings from where it tries harder to 'lock' onto the same subject even if it gets interrupted by objects along the way, or the priority to concentrate on 'new' objects at closer or farther focal distance, etc.

Canon 6D has an AF acceleration/deceleration configuration to tailor how it behaves based on subject movement being static and constant to unpredictable.

Canon 6D has MFA of zooms at *both* wide and tele ends and interpolates in between. It also has the ability to have distinct set of AF selection from landscape to portrait mode.

And again...the Nikon D6x0 has in comparison Release priority vs Focus Priority. If the Nikon by default is set to say Focus Priority (which Canons are *not* btw they are set to equal priority, a setting Nikon does not even attempt), than the comparisons are already moot.

Sadly the Michael Maven AF tracking test gets thrown about a lot and in that test it is simply an AI-Servo test using the farthest left or right AF point. IMO using the farthest left or right AF point on the much older 24-105L kit lens with poor transmission or vignetting characteristics can not really determine much again without *any* regard to the AF settings the *default* of which do not equal the *default* of the Nikons. Not to say the 24-105L is a poor lens...but seriously how many people in real-world usage would have trusted that lens as an outer-point AF sports lens? Most people including professional NFL shooters use center point and focus/recompose or crop after the fact but I think most people don't realize that and assume they must be juggling AF points constantly in shooting with furious determination.

I believe Nikons are set to Focus priority by default. If true this means by *default* the 6D and D600 can *not* be compared out of the box fairly as the Nikon by *default* is set to *not* release unless focus is confirmed while the Canon 6D by *default* is not and is set to give equal priority to both release and focus.

The Canon 6D has far more customization to AF including better MFA for zooms than the Nikon D6x0 none of which to date has been rigorously tested, presumably defaults have been tested for which the Canon by default is set to not have Focus priority compared to the Nikon!

And in regards to the d-pad control -

Instead of the joystick you have the d-pad. The use of selecting AF via d-pad can be initiated *numerous* ways...basically *any* activity that engages metering. Half-shutter, AF-ON, or even pressing the center set button on the d-pad if its set to configure ISO will all engage metering at which point the d-pad can be used to alter AF point. This means it is as simple as pressing the center set button to engage metering and using the immediate d-pad where your thumb is already at (ISO configuration via SET is only a combination of button holding and front dial).

I used to like the 5DMKII's joystick, but now I prefer the 6D d-pad (overall I prefer the 6D/70D form factor actually to either 7D and 5DMKII/III). I find the position of it just right actually preferable to the Nikon D600 or even 5DMKII's joystick which forces your thumb to move *closer* to your eyepiece, the 6D makes you move your thumb *away* from the eyepiece area. The confidence in grip in this position is still strong due to lens holding and good grip on the front.

In addition the d-pad + control wheel *has* to be in that position for best handling...moved up and you will invade the default thumb channel grip where you will for sure accidentally hit the dial all the time. Both d-pad and control dial are spaced away appropriately to not have accidental nudging and it is incredibly simple to move your thumb to the lower area and if anything more awkward to have your thumb reach *farther* upwards to your eyepiece. I used to feel the joystick was more precise than a very squishy d-pad but in real usage I felt it was difficult to really use 'diagonal' movement on the joystick precisely and the joystick is also a rather bare bones control of hard plastic with plastic ridges that over long usage is sort of a pain on the thumb IMO.

The 6D d-pad in the store will initially feel like a squishy imprecise piece of crap. In real-world use however it gets the job done perfectly and is very well weather-sealed as well (that is why its squishy).

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 6D Canon EOS 7D Nikon D600
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
Jimmy K.
Contributing MemberPosts: 515
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

I currently own 6D. I owned D7000 for 2 years and I have used D600 (my brother owns one). I just want to add some facts on Nikon's AF features on D7000 and D600, which are identical. This is not to a comparison on how well these features work. I have stated my opinion on that in other posts.

Lets see the Nikon D6x0 has Release priority or Focus Priority and nothing inbetween. Most Canon entry levels cannot do MFA much less have any of the following options.

Canon 6D has -

Release, Focus, or *equal* priority for 1st shot or all subsequent shots in a burst. Yes you can actually change your priority on the subsequent shots vs the '1st' shot...meaning your 1st shot can be set to focus priority, and subsequent shots to release, or anywhere in between.

On AF-C, Nikon can set release vs focus priority, for 1st shot. Yes, Nikon does not have explicit setting for subsequent shots.

But I disagree with your believe that Nikon is set on focus priority below. My take is that Nikon is on release priority. The reason is that on 6D with focus priority on subsequent shots, I often can feel the fps stutter, as 6D tries to grab focus, exactly as the feature is intended.  On Nikon there never a lag or stutter to the fps (except when buffer is full).  The fps is constant in continuous shooting and has no regard of whether the subject is in focus.  So Nikon is on release priority for subsequent shots.

Canon 6D has AF-tracking settings from where it tries harder to 'lock' onto the same subject even if it gets interrupted by objects along the way, or the priority to concentrate on 'new' objects at closer or farther focal distance, etc.

Nikon does have this setting. a3: Focus Tracking with Lock-On.

Canon 6D has an AF acceleration/deceleration configuration to tailor how it behaves based on subject movement being static and constant to unpredictable.

Nikon does not have this "acceleration/deceleration" terminology or setting. However, Nikon has its own feature that basically does the same thing. Nikon calls it AF-Area Mode. Nikon has 9-point, 21-point, 39-point dynamic-area AF modes + 3D tracking AF mode. According to Nikon's manual, 9-point is for predictable movement (runners, race cars); 21-point for subjects moving quickly (football players); 39-point for fast moving subjects (birds); 3D tracking for unpredictable side to side movement (tennis players).

Here, I want to note that Nikon has 1 additional setting that Canon 6D is lacking. On Nikon, in Auto-Area AF (using all focus points) AF-C mode (AI servo) continuous shooting mode, Nikon can enable or disable tracking. On Canon 6D, with all focus points enabled in AI servo continuous shooting mode, there is no setting to explicitly state whether tracking should be on or off. I still haven't figured out when/how 6D decides when the camera starts tracking. Why this mode? There are times I don't want tracking because it just adds to error. I just want the camera to pick the closest focus points.

Canon 6D has MFA of zooms at *both* wide and tele ends and interpolates in between. It also has the ability to have distinct set of AF selection from landscape to portrait mode.

Yes, Nikon only has single MFA setting.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Jimmy K., 10 months ago

Jimmy K. wrote:

I currently own 6D. I owned D7000 for 2 years and I have used D600 (my brother owns one). I just want to add some facts on Nikon's AF features on D7000 and D600, which are identical. This is not to a comparison on how well these features work. I have stated my opinion on that in other posts.

Lets see the Nikon D6x0 has Release priority or Focus Priority and nothing inbetween. Most Canon entry levels cannot do MFA much less have any of the following options.

Canon 6D has -

Release, Focus, or *equal* priority for 1st shot or all subsequent shots in a burst. Yes you can actually change your priority on the subsequent shots vs the '1st' shot...meaning your 1st shot can be set to focus priority, and subsequent shots to release, or anywhere in between.

On AF-C, Nikon can set release vs focus, for 1st shot. Nikon does not have explicit setting for subsequent shots.

I disagree with your believe that Nikon is set on focus priority below. My take is that Nikon is on release priority. The reason is that on 6D with focus priority on subsequent shots, I often can feel the fps stutter, as 6D tries to grab focus. On Nikon there is no stutter. The fps is constant. So Nikon seems to be to be on release priority.

I don't know what the case is, but it should be easy to confirm via Camera default reset.  I've heard accounts of folks on the Nikon forum being confused when the shutter never 'releases' and folks saying that it might be because of Focus Priority...I'm not sure what the default is.  Regardless actually the default of the Nikon can *never* be the default of the Canon because the default of the Canon is a mid-way priority that the Nikon does not have.

Canon 6D has AF-tracking settings from where it tries harder to 'lock' onto the same subject even if it gets interrupted by objects along the way, or the priority to concentrate on 'new' objects at closer or farther focal distance, etc.

Nikon does have has this setting. a3: Focus Tracking with Lock-On.

Canon 6D has an AF acceleration/deceleration configuration to tailor how it behaves based on subject movement being static and constant to unpredictable.

Nikon does not have this acceleration/deceleration setting. However, Nikon has its own feature that basically does the same thing. Nikon calls it AF-Area Mode. Nikon has 9-point, 21-point, 39-point dynamic-area AF modes + 3D tracking AF mode. According to Nikon's manual, 9-point is for predictable movement (runners, race cars); 21-point for subjects moving quickly (football players); 39-point for fast moving subjects (birds); 3D tracking for unpredictable side to side movement (tennis players).

I don't believe that is the same thing at all, I believe Nikon is recommending certain AF area coverage depending on the situation, but these parameters are not about erratic shifts of movement against the focal plane but shifts of movement across AF points, completely different issue.

Here, I want to note that Nikon has 1 additional setting that Canon 6D is lacking. On Nikon, in Auto-Area AF (using all focus points) AF-C mode (AI servo) continuous shooting mode, Nikon can enable or disable tracking. On Canon 6D, with all focus points in AI servo continuous shooting mode, there is no setting to explicitly state whether tracking should be on or off. I still haven't figured out when/how 6D decides when the camera starts tracking. Why this mode? There are times I don't want tracking. I just want the camera to pick the closest focus points.

Canon 6D has MFA of zooms at *both* wide and tele ends and interpolates in between. It also has the ability to have distinct set of AF selection from landscape to portrait mode.

Yes, Nikon only has single MFA setting.

I've seen the 3d-tracking mode on even the Nikon D3200 or D5100, and I do not believe it to be what you are thinking in relation to Canon.  From my recollection it was the ability of the D5100 or D3200 to select a target via center point, and then recompose and have it AF under an outer point.  This is not something the Canon even attempts to do because it is not something that is really useful?  I do not think it is something that has a real practical application except for a mode for which you can focus and recompose without manually shifting AF point.  The 6D method would be to just pick the outer AF point you want (and focus and recompose from there).  Regardless the 6D also natively and is designed up front for better back-button focus as well so the 3D tracking mode is both poorly named and not necessary IMO in relation to just back-button focus and AF point selection.

AI-servo is AI-servo, it is C-AF and it is *always* tracking movement...there is no AI-servo with and without tracking and even the Nikon I am not so certain it is what you think it is, but feel free to provide references to it as this is just based on my short ownership of Nikon entry level (which had 3d-tracking mode).

The 6D's sparse point has no such competent all-area C-AF/tracking mode IMO, but I believe the way it works is that with all-area you set your initial subject via center point, and you can attempt to keep the subject under *some* AF point or the camera will know which AF point its currently under.  Due to the sparseness and tight grouping of points, I really see no reason why folks just don't use center point...again its one of those things where I feel a good deal of sports shooters probably just use center point and not these 'extras' for tightly framed action shots.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Mako2011 MOD
Forum ProPosts: 15,778
Like?
It is
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

Timbukto wrote:

Canon 6D has AF-tracking settings from where it tries harder to 'lock' onto the same subject even if it gets interrupted by objects along the way, or the priority to concentrate on 'new' objects at closer or farther focal distance, etc.

Nikon does have has this setting. a3: Focus Tracking with Lock-On.

Canon 6D has an AF acceleration/deceleration configuration to tailor how it behaves based on subject movement being static and constant to unpredictable.

Nikon does not have this acceleration/deceleration setting. However, Nikon has its own feature that basically does the same thing. Nikon calls it AF-Area Mode. Nikon has 9-point, 21-point, 39-point dynamic-area AF modes + 3D tracking AF mode. According to Nikon's manual, 9-point is for predictable movement (runners, race cars); 21-point for subjects moving quickly (football players); 39-point for fast moving subjects (birds); 3D tracking for unpredictable side to side movement (tennis players).

I don't believe that is the same thing at all, I believe Nikon is recommending certain AF area coverage depending on the situation, but these parameters are not about erratic shifts of movement against the focal plane but shifts of movement across AF points, completely different issue.

Nikon does a horrible job explaining it but Jimmy did a fair job. The The AF-Area modes do works across the plane (in simple terms) but they also combine with the Focus Tracking With Lock-ON setting that does affect movement against the focal plane response. Many set it to "off" though as this gives the most speedy and accurate response to movement to and from. Not like acceleration/deceleration in the Canon menu but practically has a very similar effect.

Here, I want to note that Nikon has 1 additional setting that Canon 6D is lacking. On Nikon, in Auto-Area AF (using all focus points) AF-C mode (AI servo) continuous shooting mode, Nikon can enable or disable tracking. On Canon 6D, with all focus points in AI servo continuous shooting mode, there is no setting to explicitly state whether tracking should be on or off. I still haven't figured out when/how 6D decides when the camera starts tracking. Why this mode? There are times I don't want tracking. I just want the camera to pick the closest focus points.

Canon 6D has MFA of zooms at *both* wide and tele ends and interpolates in between. It also has the ability to have distinct set of AF selection from landscape to portrait mode.

Yes, Nikon only has single MFA setting.

I've seen the 3d-tracking mode on even the Nikon D3200 or D5100, and I do not believe it to be what you are thinking in relation to Canon. From my recollection it was the ability of the D5100 or D3200 to select a target via center point, and then recompose and have it AF under an outer point.

The AF-Area mode 3-D on the D600/610 works much better than on the D3200/5200. It allows you to pic any focus box and lock focus then not move the camera while the focus system tracks the subject (keeping focus locked) all the way to the edge of the frame (even when the subject leaves the FoV of the Focus boxes in the View finder). Can actually be very useful in certain panning situations as well if the background is relatively un-clutterd.

This is not something the Canon even attempts to do because it is not something that is really useful? I do not think it is something that has a real practical application except for a mode for which you can focus and recompose without manually shifting AF point.

Many folks who do BIF or Airshows folks love this mode as it really hangs on to the target when the shooter might not be so good at keeping the subject centered. Shoot now crop later

AI-servo is AI-servo, it is C-AF and it is *always* tracking movement...there is no AI-servo with and without tracking and even the Nikon I am not so certain it is what you think it is, but feel free to provide references to it as this is just based on my short ownership of Nikon entry level (which had 3d-tracking mode).

Yes, with AF-C (AI-Servo) you can adjusted how the subject gets tracked via the AF With Lock-ON setting (menu a3). And it can be turned off. It's primary purpose was to keep from losing lock when something get in the way but some folks like to tweak the setting for a different response. Lots of different thoughts on it. The acceleration/deceleration method might be a way better methodology though.

The 6D's sparse point has no such competent all-area C-AF/tracking mode IMO, but I believe the way it works is that with all-area you set your initial subject via center point, and you can attempt to keep the subject under *some* AF point or the camera will know which AF point its currently under.

That is very similar to the Nikon 39pt, 21pt, 9pt modes. Only real dif is you're changing the size and sensitivity of the zones and can move their location.

Due to the sparseness and tight grouping of points, I really see no reason why folks just don't use center point...again its one of those things where I feel a good deal of sports shooters probably just use center point and not these 'extras' for tightly framed action shots.

Both systems are very nice. Not a lot each can't handle. Both great bodies.

-- hide signature --

My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jimmy K.
Contributing MemberPosts: 515
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

Canon 6D has -

Release, Focus, or *equal* priority for 1st shot or all subsequent shots in a burst. Yes you can actually change your priority on the subsequent shots vs the '1st' shot...meaning your 1st shot can be set to focus priority, and subsequent shots to release, or anywhere in between.

On AF-C, Nikon can set release vs focus, for 1st shot. Nikon does not have explicit setting for subsequent shots.

I disagree with your believe that Nikon is set on focus priority below. My take is that Nikon is on release priority. The reason is that on 6D with focus priority on subsequent shots, I often can feel the fps stutter, as 6D tries to grab focus. On Nikon there is no stutter. The fps is constant. So Nikon seems to be to be on release priority.

I don't know what the case is, but it should be easy to confirm via Camera default reset. I've heard accounts of folks on the Nikon forum being confused when the shutter never 'releases' and folks saying that it might be because of Focus Priority...I'm not sure what the default is. Regardless actually the default of the Nikon can *never* be the default of the Canon because the default of the Canon is a mid-way priority that the Nikon does not have.

Actually, thinking back about about Nikon's AF-C (AI Servo) continuous mode Focus vs Release priority, let me take back my previous statement.  I might have tested Focus priority early on with D7000.  But once I started to use AF-On for focus, I only use AF-C (AI Servo) Release priority.  I just assumed this only applied to 1st shot and not subsequent shots.  It is incorrect to draw this conclusion.  So ignore what I said previously that subsequent shots are Release priority.  Crossed out above.

Nikon definitely should document/explain this better. 6D setting for this feature is better: 6D explicitly decouples the 1st vs subsequently shots, and ability to fine tune this to setting.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Slideshow Bob
Senior MemberPosts: 1,193
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

I'm not sure where the mythbusting is in your original post, but o.k.

Timbukto wrote:

I've seen the 3d-tracking mode on even the Nikon D3200 or D5100, and I do not believe it to be what you are thinking in relation to Canon. From my recollection it was the ability of the D5100 or D3200 to select a target via center point, and then recompose and have it AF under an outer point. This is not something the Canon even attempts to do because it is not something that is really useful? I do not think it is something that has a real practical application except for a mode for which you can focus and recompose without manually shifting AF point. The 6D method would be to just pick the outer AF point you want (and focus and recompose from there). Regardless the 6D also natively and is designed up front for better back-button focus as well so the 3D tracking mode is both poorly named and not necessary IMO in relation to just back-button focus and AF point selection.

I think you're getting confused here. Or perhaps you're just confusing me! If you're shooting a rapidly moving subject and you want to reframe to maybe get an additional subject in the shot (two birds in flight, aircraft crossing during an airshow manoeuvre, or pretty much any situation where two subjects you want in the frame are either converging or diverging), you're basically saying that there is no way to do that with a 6D, because you have to frame one of the subjects off centre by manually moving the focus point. That's far too slow for rapidly changing situations. Even on my old D300 it took just a fraction of a second to grab focus on one subject, then move that off to a different AF point and reframe to get the shot I want.

The point is, why waste time manually selecting AF points when the system can track and maintain focus on your subject so much faster? You're going to miss a lot of shots if you have to keep selecting a different AF point.

You seem to be saying that the difficult/slow way of doing this is much better than the easy/fast way. Why?

SB

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Slideshow Bob, 10 months ago

Slideshow Bob wrote:

I'm not sure where the mythbusting is in your original post, but o.k.

Timbukto wrote:

I've seen the 3d-tracking mode on even the Nikon D3200 or D5100, and I do not believe it to be what you are thinking in relation to Canon. From my recollection it was the ability of the D5100 or D3200 to select a target via center point, and then recompose and have it AF under an outer point. This is not something the Canon even attempts to do because it is not something that is really useful? I do not think it is something that has a real practical application except for a mode for which you can focus and recompose without manually shifting AF point. The 6D method would be to just pick the outer AF point you want (and focus and recompose from there). Regardless the 6D also natively and is designed up front for better back-button focus as well so the 3D tracking mode is both poorly named and not necessary IMO in relation to just back-button focus and AF point selection.

I think you're getting confused here. Or perhaps you're just confusing me! If you're shooting a rapidly moving subject and you want to reframe to maybe get an additional subject in the shot (two birds in flight, aircraft crossing during an airshow manoeuvre, or pretty much any situation where two subjects you want in the frame are either converging or diverging), you're basically saying that there is no way to do that with a 6D, because you have to frame one of the subjects off centre by manually moving the focus point. That's far too slow for rapidly changing situations. Even on my old D300 it took just a fraction of a second to grab focus on one subject, then move that off to a different AF point and reframe to get the shot I want.

The point is, why waste time manually selecting AF points when the system can track and maintain focus on your subject so much faster? You're going to miss a lot of shots if you have to keep selecting a different AF point.

You seem to be saying that the difficult/slow way of doing this is much better than the easy/fast way. Why?

SB

Sorry for the confusion, AI-Servo on Canon when all AF points are selected works by first initiating AF via center point and as long as the subject remains near or under available AF coverage it will perform continuous tracking.  There is no on/off of tracking except I suppose if you select a single AF point, it no longer tracks across AF points (but tracks against the focal plane against a single AF point).  So in a way the Canon in AI-servo is always tracking focus, but depending on single point selection vs all-area it can also track *across* AF points.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Re: It is
In reply to Mako2011, 10 months ago

Mako2011 wrote:

Nikon does a horrible job explaining it but Jimmy did a fair job. The The AF-Area modes do works across the plane (in simple terms) but they also combine with the Focus Tracking With Lock-ON setting that does affect movement against the focal plane response. Many set it to "off" though as this gives the most speedy and accurate response to movement to and from. Not like acceleration/deceleration in the Canon menu but practically has a very similar effect.

Ok my understanding of acceleration/deceleration has to do with profiling the behavior of movement against the focal plane. You are saying the 9 vs 21 vs 39 point dynamic modes also deal with profiling the behavior of movement against the focal plane as well as determining AF area coverage? That is what is confusing me...acceleration/deceleration should have nothing to do with # of AF points, but you are saying for Nikon you know for a fact that deceleration/acceleration behavior is also tightly coupled to # of AF points used in dynamic AF area mode?

To put in simple terms, I thought acceleration/deceleration is about behavior of movement going towards or away from you while the 9/21/38 point modes seem to be more about AF area coverage of your FOV.  Please provide references on how these modes do indeed change behavior against focal plane.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Mako2011 MOD
Forum ProPosts: 15,778
Like?
Near same.
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

Timbukto wrote:

Slideshow Bob wrote:

I'm not sure where the mythbusting is in your original post, but o.k.

Timbukto wrote:

I've seen the 3d-tracking mode on even the Nikon D3200 or D5100, and I do not believe it to be what you are thinking in relation to Canon. From my recollection it was the ability of the D5100 or D3200 to select a target via center point, and then recompose and have it AF under an outer point. This is not something the Canon even attempts to do because it is not something that is really useful? I do not think it is something that has a real practical application except for a mode for which you can focus and recompose without manually shifting AF point. The 6D method would be to just pick the outer AF point you want (and focus and recompose from there). Regardless the 6D also natively and is designed up front for better back-button focus as well so the 3D tracking mode is both poorly named and not necessary IMO in relation to just back-button focus and AF point selection.

I think you're getting confused here. Or perhaps you're just confusing me! If you're shooting a rapidly moving subject and you want to reframe to maybe get an additional subject in the shot (two birds in flight, aircraft crossing during an airshow manoeuvre, or pretty much any situation where two subjects you want in the frame are either converging or diverging), you're basically saying that there is no way to do that with a 6D, because you have to frame one of the subjects off centre by manually moving the focus point. That's far too slow for rapidly changing situations. Even on my old D300 it took just a fraction of a second to grab focus on one subject, then move that off to a different AF point and reframe to get the shot I want.

The point is, why waste time manually selecting AF points when the system can track and maintain focus on your subject so much faster? You're going to miss a lot of shots if you have to keep selecting a different AF point.

You seem to be saying that the difficult/slow way of doing this is much better than the easy/fast way. Why?

SB

Sorry for the confusion, AI-Servo on Canon when all AF points are selected works by first initiating AF via center point and as long as the subject remains near or under available AF coverage it will perform continuous tracking. There is no on/off of tracking except I suppose if you select a single AF point, it no longer tracks across AF points (but tracks against the focal plane against a single AF point). So in a way the Canon in AI-servo is always tracking focus, but depending on single point selection vs all-area it can also track *across* AF points.

That really is identical to Nikon's AF-Area mode 3-D. Only difference is with the 3-D version you also track across the entire frame (not just AF points) and focus can start at any point not just the center one. Both systems work very well and shouldn't be a deal breaker.

-- hide signature --

My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Mako2011 MOD
Forum ProPosts: 15,778
Like?
Yes
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

Timbukto wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Nikon does a horrible job explaining it but Jimmy did a fair job. The The AF-Area modes do works across the plane (in simple terms) but they also combine with the Focus Tracking With Lock-ON setting that does affect movement against the focal plane response. Many set it to "off" though as this gives the most speedy and accurate response to movement to and from. Not like acceleration/deceleration in the Canon menu but practically has a very similar effect.

Ok my understanding of acceleration/deceleration has to do with profiling the behavior of movement against the focal plane. You are saying the 9 vs 21 vs 39 point dynamic modes also deal with profiling the behavior of movement against the focal plane as well as determining AF area coverage?

Yes but for a different "stated" reason and not as precisely as the Canon system, IMO. The practical effect is very similar though.

That is what is confusing me...acceleration/deceleration should have nothing to do with # of AF points, but you are saying for Nikon you know for a fact that deceleration/acceleration behavior is also tightly coupled to # of AF points used in dynamic AF area mode?

Not coupled but happening at the same time...complimentary

To put in simple terms, I thought acceleration/deceleration is about behavior of movement going towards or away from you while the 9/21/38 point modes seem to be more about AF area coverage of your FOV.

Yes that is true but at the same time the Focus Tracking with Lock ON function is operating as well (if turned on). Again, I think the Canon system might be the better option in that regard.

Please provide references on how these modes do indeed change behavior against focal plane.

Described in the Owners manual (poor job by Nikon, BTW). Also described in much greater detail in the Thom Hogan guides.

-- hide signature --

My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

Timbukto wrote:

Slideshow Bob wrote:

I'm not sure where the mythbusting is in your original post, but o.k.

Timbukto wrote:

I've seen the 3d-tracking mode on even the Nikon D3200 or D5100, and I do not believe it to be what you are thinking in relation to Canon. From my recollection it was the ability of the D5100 or D3200 to select a target via center point, and then recompose and have it AF under an outer point. This is not something the Canon even attempts to do because it is not something that is really useful? I do not think it is something that has a real practical application except for a mode for which you can focus and recompose without manually shifting AF point. The 6D method would be to just pick the outer AF point you want (and focus and recompose from there). Regardless the 6D also natively and is designed up front for better back-button focus as well so the 3D tracking mode is both poorly named and not necessary IMO in relation to just back-button focus and AF point selection.

I think you're getting confused here. Or perhaps you're just confusing me! If you're shooting a rapidly moving subject and you want to reframe to maybe get an additional subject in the shot (two birds in flight, aircraft crossing during an airshow manoeuvre, or pretty much any situation where two subjects you want in the frame are either converging or diverging), you're basically saying that there is no way to do that with a 6D, because you have to frame one of the subjects off centre by manually moving the focus point. That's far too slow for rapidly changing situations. Even on my old D300 it took just a fraction of a second to grab focus on one subject, then move that off to a different AF point and reframe to get the shot I want.

The point is, why waste time manually selecting AF points when the system can track and maintain focus on your subject so much faster? You're going to miss a lot of shots if you have to keep selecting a different AF point.

You seem to be saying that the difficult/slow way of doing this is much better than the easy/fast way. Why?

SB

Sorry for the confusion, AI-Servo on Canon when all AF points are selected works by first initiating AF via center point and as long as the subject remains near or under available AF coverage it will perform continuous tracking. There is no on/off of tracking except I suppose if you select a single AF point, it no longer tracks across AF points (but tracks against the focal plane against a single AF point). So in a way the Canon in AI-servo is always tracking focus, but depending on single point selection vs all-area it can also track *across* AF points.

In real-testing it is not so simple.  It is definitely true however that single-point selection is *always* single point selection on the Canon 6D.  However it is not always true that in all-area AF that the center point becomes subject being 'tracked' in AI-Servo.  It happens to be the case that the 6D will always prefer the closer subject to some degree, however is there are two objects, one painted by the center point but slightly behind and one painted by an outer point but slightly forward, it will pick center point.  But between an outer AF point that is much closer and a center point painting something further back, it initiates tracking on the outer AF point.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keith Z Leonard
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,281Gear list
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

Personal preference, but I cannot agree with you on the d pad vs joystick.  Moving my thumb down like that is quite uncomfortable.

 Keith Z Leonard's gear list:Keith Z Leonard's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM Sigma 50mm F1.4 EX DG HSM Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM +13 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Re: Yes
In reply to Mako2011, 10 months ago

Mako2011 wrote:

Described in the Owners manual (poor job by Nikon, BTW). Also described in much greater detail in the Thom Hogan guides.

-- hide signature --

My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

Unfortunately only the pay for guides correct? This is the only tidbit I found that was recent and free on Nikon AF and it seems to separate AF-C from AF area selection (meaning no mention of AF area selection influencing factors like acceleration/deceleration.

http://1000wordpics.blogspot.com/2013/07/nikon-autofocus-guide-d600-d7100-and.html

I also looked at Thom Hogan's review of D6x0 AF and he felt it was mostly a focus and recompose type camera (i.e. stick to central area).  Mansurov's review of D610 AF was that it was great at shooting perched birds, but BIF and it was a truly difficult affair.

From my own use of the 6D I also gather it to be a central AI-servo tracking camera with some customization as to subject speed but not so great as far as AF area coverage or AF point auto-expansion/selection (but good at the AI-servo or AF-C portion of tracking assuming you can continuously paint your target with an AF point).  Altogether not a big difference as the biggest similarity is the rather centralized AF area coverage in the first place.

In my testing of AI servo of busy subject and background, the whole center point select and pan just does not really work on busy scenes with many objects close to each other, but I imagine it'll work for singular subjects with more distant backgrounds.  Basically if you need to track complicated subject/scene you really need to stick to a singular AF point, and the only time to use all-AF is when you have clearly delineated subjects against more distant backgrounds.  I also found that interestingly enough All-AF mode almost always is biased against the bottom most AF point (whether you switch from portrait to landscape orientation it is biased *against* the bottom most AF points whether it is really the bottom point or leftmost point).  I guess the assumption is that it will give focus priority towards upper part of the frame otherwise it may end up front focusing on random stuff on the ground, etc in front of subjects.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Keith Z Leonard, 10 months ago

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

Personal preference, but I cannot agree with you on the d pad vs joystick. Moving my thumb down like that is quite uncomfortable.

Sure but you cannot really approximate your comfort level of doing this based on either 7D or 5DMKII/III bodies. Different form factor and IMO for the 6D/70D form factors the d-pad position is just fine and I don't think my thumb is doing anything uncomfortable. It also confuses me why people say they can't 'access' the d-pad while looking through the ovf since its completely out of the way from the viewfinder, your nose, etc.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Mako2011 MOD
Forum ProPosts: 15,778
Like?
Not forthcoming
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

Timbukto wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Described in the Owners manual (poor job by Nikon, BTW). Also described in much greater detail in the Thom Hogan guides.

-- hide signature --

My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

Unfortunately only the pay for guides correct? This is the only tidbit I found that was recent and free on Nikon AF and it seems to separate AF-C from AF area selection (meaning no mention of AF area selection influencing factors like acceleration/deceleration.

Yes, Like I said...The Focus Tracking with Lock on funtion is seperate from the Dynamic modes but works at the same time as it's related to AF-C. The effect is similar to how acceleration/deceleration works.

http://1000wordpics.blogspot.com/2013/07/nikon-autofocus-guide-d600-d7100-and.html

A pretty darn good overview

I also looked at Thom Hogan's review of D6x0 AF and he felt it was mostly a focus and recompose type camera (i.e. stick to central area). Mansurov's review of D610 AF was that it was great at shooting perched birds, but BIF and it was a truly difficult affair.

Yes, everyone has a take on it. Lots of different perspectives out there.

From my own use of the 6D I also gather it to be a central AI-servo tracking camera with some customization as to subject speed but not so great as far as AF area coverage or AF point auto-expansion/selection (but good at the AI-servo or AF-C portion of tracking assuming you can continuously paint your target with an AF point). Altogether not a big difference as the biggest similarity is the rather centralized AF area coverage in the first place.

True, both do the AF-C/AI-servo mode pretty darn well.

In my testing of AI servo of busy subject and background, the whole center point select and pan just does not really work on busy scenes with many objects close to each other, but I imagine it'll work for singular subjects with more distant backgrounds. Basically if you need to track complicated subject/scene you really need to stick to a singular AF point, and the only time to use all-AF is when you have clearly delineated subjects against more distant backgrounds. I also found that interestingly enough All-AF mode almost always is biased against the bottom most AF point (whether you switch from portrait to landscape orientation it is biased *against* the bottom most AF points whether it is really the bottom point or leftmost point). I guess the assumption is that it will give focus priority towards upper part of the frame otherwise it may end up front focusing on random stuff on the ground, etc in front of subjects.

Hard to tell, the respective companies don't seem to be very forthcoming with the details of their AF algorithms. What I think happens...just my opinion...that folks use their respective bodies and learn to use them well. After a time, things get instinctive and you get good at selecting the right mode to get the job done. Folks learn to play their instruments well. So it matters less the specifics of the different cameras and more how well the shooter learns to focus with what they got. Ask both to snap a quick pic of that hard to focus subject and ...TA DA they both hand you a well focused shot. Now have them swap cameras and try again...and you get two blurry pics

-- hide signature --

My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Timbukto
Senior MemberPosts: 3,477Gear list
Like?
Re: Not forthcoming
In reply to Mako2011, 10 months ago

Mako2011 wrote:

Yes, Like I said...The Focus Tracking with Lock on funtion is seperate from the Dynamic modes but works at the same time as it's related to AF-C. The effect is similar to how acceleration/deceleration works.

I think this is where our thoughts differ. I believe Nikon's Focus Tracking with Lock on function is similar to Canon's C.fn II Autofocus Tracking Sensitivity with a slider from Locked On <-> Responsive. Canon has *another* configuration slider for acceleration/deceleration. So IMO I do not think Nikon's Focus Tracking with Lock on to be similar to *both* Tracking Sensitivity and acceleration/deceleration. I find it to be similar only to the former, the latter I am not so sure there is a true equivalent just like the Nikon has no true equivalent for MFA for wide/tele ends of a zoom.

Of course I'm not saying these additional menus are the greatest thing since sliced bread...having 6 FPS of C-AF is very nice too.  I am just saying these menu's need to be explored just like Mansurov had to dive into AF configuration for his BIF shots for improvements, I am saying it is not fair to discount 6D's AF without more rigorous testing in all of the 6D's AF configuration.

In other words AF systems are pretty complicated and testing a 'default' AF configuration to determine AF capability makes as much sense as testing an OOC jpeg for sensor performance.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Sony a6000 Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keith Z Leonard
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,281Gear list
Like?
Re: Mythbusters - Canon 6D's AF is rebel-grade and certainly inferior to Nikon D6x0
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

I guess I don't see your point, accessing the wheel and joystick on the 7d and 5d are more comfortable for me than doing the same camera actions om the 6d.  I don't see how that is an unfair comparison.  Like I said though, it is more about personal fit/feel than anything else.  The heavier 7d is more comfortable for me to use than the lighter 6d in terms of ergonomics.  The 5d still feels better but it is a closer situation due to the increased weight of the 5d.

I agree with you though about access, I had no problem making the adjustments with my eye to the viewfinder, it was just less comfortable and error prone for me.

 Keith Z Leonard's gear list:Keith Z Leonard's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM Sigma 50mm F1.4 EX DG HSM Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM +13 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Spad16
Contributing MemberPosts: 877Gear list
Like?
A word of caution
In reply to Timbukto, 10 months ago

I adjusted the autofocus to optimise BiF on my 6D, and it did help a little. But at the same time it became worse for things like birds on a perch. I compromised by leaving the optimization on C2 (one of my custom modes) and standard on Av.

But I do think the standard setting is a very good compromise, and not worth changing for most applications.

/Neil

 Spad16's gear list:Spad16's gear list
Canon EOS 6D Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM Canon EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads