7D and usable ISO?

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Multi-SportsMom
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7D and usable ISO?
10 months ago

What do you find is the highest ISO you can use without the photos lacking sharpness? Another season shooting indoor sports and I am disappointed once again.

My outdoor track shots don't have this issue. So I assume its the high ISO.

Most would say my photos are usable. But they still arent what i want and see of other photographers. This is my 8th year shooting and 4th digital camera. I have improved but my photos still lack pop/clarity. I shot 6400 last night in our bad lighting gym.  I lowered it to 4000-5000.  And used an aperture of 2 instead of 2.5.

Maybe its my PS skills lacking. Anyone have any unedited shots i could see?

Signed Picky Penny

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mailman88
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

.....usable at 6400ISO and print 11x14....I can do it with my 7D.  Of course I spend a lot of time with 3 noise reduction programs and use all 3 at once. LR4, Denoise and noiseware pro

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Surb
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

Is it possible to use external flash and RF trigers there?  Noticed a thread not to long ago where someone placed two flashes off camera to use them remotely

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Thorbard
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

Multi-SportsMom wrote:

What do you find is the highest ISO you can use without the photos lacking sharpness? Another season shooting indoor sports and I am disappointed once again.

My outdoor track shots don't have this issue. So I assume its the high ISO.

Most would say my photos are usable. But they still arent what i want and see of other photographers. This is my 8th year shooting and 4th digital camera. I have improved but my photos still lack pop/clarity. I shot 6400 last night in our bad lighting gym. I lowered it to 4000-5000. And used an aperture of 2 instead of 2.5.

Maybe its my PS skills lacking. Anyone have any unedited shots i could see?

Signed Picky Penny

I suppose it really depends how you are defining usable. Are you trying to sell the photos to the players and their families, or feature on a website or newsletter, or are you hoping to sell to glossy magazines?

There are more effects to high ISO than just noise - high ISO shots can lack general sharpness (as you have noted) but are also less contrasty and less saturated. Could you also be suffering from less-than-sharp focus or motion blur, both of which may also be characteristic of low-light photography.

At 100% noise is the most obvious fault of an image, but looking at the whole image (especially if it lacks "pop") it could be a combination of other faults. IF you are trying to sell, remember that the general public don't notice noise much!

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AndyMulhearn
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

For me, the subject matter and how much cropping you have to do has a big bearing on what you can get away with. If you have a noisy background, i.e. one that isn't just flat tones, then you can ignore a lot of noise that would otherwise be unsightly. Also, if you have to crop then the effect of noise can be magnified significantly.

So it really depends I'm afraid.

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leopold
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ISO 800
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

Depends on your tolerance to noise, for me i tend not to go above ISO 800 with the 7D, above that i find it noisy, i shoot in RAW.

But i don't like noise.

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happysnapper64
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

Multi-SportsMom wrote:

What do you find is the highest ISO you can use without the photos lacking sharpness? Another season shooting indoor sports and I am disappointed once again.

My outdoor track shots don't have this issue. So I assume its the high ISO.

Most would say my photos are usable. But they still arent what i want and see of other photographers. This is my 8th year shooting and 4th digital camera. I have improved but my photos still lack pop/clarity. I shot 6400 last night in our bad lighting gym. I lowered it to 4000-5000. And used an aperture of 2 instead of 2.5.

Maybe its my PS skills lacking. Anyone have any unedited shots i could see?

Signed Picky Penny

Hi PP. Maybe you are just trying too hard to live up to your signature?? [only kiddin'] However it does really depend on your tolerance to noise, as others have said. I have only been shooting for 2yrs & have had the 7D for 1yr & I heard all this talk about the poor high ISO performance before I bought it. I had already owned a 600D/T3i which has the same sensor, & I was quite happy with it. I only started to really notice "noise" after joining the forum. I have used ISO 1600 on a number of occasions, I may have some of those shots in my gallery, i'm not sure, but I have snapped away while experimenting with ISO settings & viewed on my 21" monitor they seem OK to me! Maybe I am easily pleased? but as one poster said, your average buyer would probably not notice it unless it is blindingly obvious. I have gone to 6400 before I noticed a real noise intrusion, but that was viewing from a couple inches away!!

Yes, I do try & keep ISO to a minimum, of course, but I haven't [yet] seen any reason for me to get too concerned about bumping it up if need be.

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Alastair Norcross
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

I use ISO 3200 on my 7D for basketball, with the EF 200mm F2.8L II. This gets me 1/1000 at F2.8 in Coors Events Center (the basketball arena at the University of Colorado). I shoot JPEG for sports (RAW for everything else), in camera NR set to low, and add a little NR in Lightroom afterwards (20 luminance), a little shadow and highlight recovery, a little sharpening (about 35 with a 0.6 radius), and a little clarity and vibrance boost. I apply all the settings at once to all the pictures I select to put up in the web, so it takes almost no time at all. I like the results. These aren't for selling, just for my own amusement, so perhaps my standards aren't particularly high (though I've been told by friends that the shots in the local paper aren't any better than mine). I shoot from the stands. If I could shoot from the baseline, with my 70-200 F2.8L IS II, I'm sure the results would be better. Here are some examples from the most recent game I attended, against Jackson State:

Most of these were cropped, some quite a bit. The less cropping you do, the less the noise will be visible. Shooting from the baseline with a zoom, you could cut cropping to a minimum.

Edit: I've no idea why the EXIF here doesn't show the aperture. These were all shot in manual, with aperture F2.8 and shutter 1/1000, except for one where I accidentally bumped the shutter speed down to 1/800.

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elfroggio
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to mailman88, 10 months ago

mailman88 wrote:

.....usable at 6400ISO and print 11x14....I can do it with my 7D. Of course I spend a lot of time with 3 noise reduction programs and use all 3 at once. LR4, Denoise and noiseware pro

Wow! I do not mean to be impolite, but can we see some samples? and how did you use them?

I am almost OK at 1600, and 3200 is definitely not. I do a lot of 11x17, and some 16x20/16x24 on higer ISOs (like 1600, but mostly as 800).

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Multi-SportsMom
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Re: ISO 800
In reply to leopold, 10 months ago

leopold wrote:

Depends on your tolerance to noise, for me i tend not to go above ISO 800 with the 7D, above that i find it noisy, i shoot in RAW.

But i don't like noise.

YES! thats my problem.  I don't sell my shots. Don't think they are good enough yet. They dont meet my standards.  I'm sure mine are better then others and I know are not as good as others.

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Multi-SportsMom
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Alastair Norcross, 10 months ago

Alastair Norcross wrote:

I use ISO 3200 on my 7D for basketball, with the EF 200mm F2.8L II. This gets me 1/1000 at F2.8 in Coors Events Center (the basketball arena at the University of Colorado). I shoot JPEG for sports (RAW for everything else), in camera NR set to low, and add a little NR in Lightroom afterwards (20 luminance), a little shadow and highlight recovery, a little sharpening (about 35 with a 0.6 radius), and a little clarity and vibrance boost. I apply all the settings at once to all the pictures I select to put up in the web, so it takes almost no time at all. I like the results. These aren't for selling, just for my own amusement, so perhaps my standards aren't particularly high (though I've been told by friends that the shots in the local paper aren't any better than mine). I shoot from the stands. If I could shoot from the baseline, with my 70-200 F2.8L IS II, I'm sure the results would be better. Here are some examples from the most recent game I attended, against Jackson State:

Most of these were cropped, some quite a bit. The less cropping you do, the less the noise will be visible. Shooting from the baseline with a zoom, you could cut cropping to a minimum.

Edit: I've no idea why the EXIF here doesn't show the aperture. These were all shot in manual, with aperture F2.8 and shutter 1/1000, except for one where I accidentally bumped the shutter speed down to 1/800.

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Alastair
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I could never shoot with thse settings around here.  I want the 70-200 lens. But Not sure I would be happy shooting 2.8 and 6400ISO.  Your photos though are the quality I'm trying for. There is just so much clearness to them. My alwyas look soft/flat or smooth as if I have already applied noise reduction. (NR disabled in camera)

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Alastair Norcross
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

Multi-SportsMom wrote:

Alastair Norcross wrote:

I use ISO 3200 on my 7D for basketball, with the EF 200mm F2.8L II. This gets me 1/1000 at F2.8 in Coors Events Center (the basketball arena at the University of Colorado). I shoot JPEG for sports (RAW for everything else), in camera NR set to low, and add a little NR in Lightroom afterwards (20 luminance), a little shadow and highlight recovery, a little sharpening (about 35 with a 0.6 radius), and a little clarity and vibrance boost. I apply all the settings at once to all the pictures I select to put up in the web, so it takes almost no time at all. I like the results. These aren't for selling, just for my own amusement, so perhaps my standards aren't particularly high (though I've been told by friends that the shots in the local paper aren't any better than mine). I shoot from the stands. If I could shoot from the baseline, with my 70-200 F2.8L IS II, I'm sure the results would be better. Here are some examples from the most recent game I attended, against Jackson State:

Most of these were cropped, some quite a bit. The less cropping you do, the less the noise will be visible. Shooting from the baseline with a zoom, you could cut cropping to a minimum.

Edit: I've no idea why the EXIF here doesn't show the aperture. These were all shot in manual, with aperture F2.8 and shutter 1/1000, except for one where I accidentally bumped the shutter speed down to 1/800.

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Alastair
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I could never shoot with thse settings around here. I want the 70-200 lens. But Not sure I would be happy shooting 2.8 and 6400ISO. Your photos though are the quality I'm trying for. There is just so much clearness to them. My alwyas look soft/flat or smooth as if I have already applied noise reduction. (NR disabled in camera)

What other settings are you using in camera (sharpness, contrast, etc.)? And what shutter speed are you using? And what do you do to them in post? It could be that a little clarity and sharpness boost is all you need. Can you post some of them, so we can see what you mean by "soft/flat or smooth"?

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Alastair
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Multi-SportsMom
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Alastair Norcross, 10 months ago

Alastair Norcross wrote:

Multi-SportsMom wrote:

Alastair Norcross wrote:

I use ISO 3200 on my 7D for basketball, with the EF 200mm F2.8L II. This gets me 1/1000 at F2.8 in Coors Events Center (the basketball arena at the University of Colorado). I shoot JPEG for sports (RAW for everything else), in camera NR set to low, and add a little NR in Lightroom afterwards (20 luminance), a little shadow and highlight recovery, a little sharpening (about 35 with a 0.6 radius), and a little clarity and vibrance boost. I apply all the settings at once to all the pictures I select to put up in the web, so it takes almost no time at all. I like the results. These aren't for selling, just for my own amusement, so perhaps my standards aren't particularly high (though I've been told by friends that the shots in the local paper aren't any better than mine). I shoot from the stands. If I could shoot from the baseline, with my 70-200 F2.8L IS II, I'm sure the results would be better. Here are some examples from the most recent game I attended, against Jackson State:

Most of these were cropped, some quite a bit. The less cropping you do, the less the noise will be visible. Shooting from the baseline with a zoom, you could cut cropping to a minimum.

Edit: I've no idea why the EXIF here doesn't show the aperture. These were all shot in manual, with aperture F2.8 and shutter 1/1000, except for one where I accidentally bumped the shutter speed down to 1/800.

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Alastair
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I could never shoot with thse settings around here. I want the 70-200 lens. But Not sure I would be happy shooting 2.8 and 6400ISO. Your photos though are the quality I'm trying for. There is just so much clearness to them. My alwyas look soft/flat or smooth as if I have already applied noise reduction. (NR disabled in camera)

What other settings are you using in camera (sharpness, contrast, etc.)? And what shutter speed are you using? And what do you do to them in post? It could be that a little clarity and sharpness boost is all you need. Can you post some of them, so we can see what you mean by "soft/flat or smooth"?

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Alastair
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Standard..sharpness 4, contrast, saturation. color tone all 0. I do apply sharpness and clarity in PS. It helps but just don't get this look.

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Jerry-astro
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He's not kidding...
In reply to elfroggio, 10 months ago

elfroggio wrote:

mailman88 wrote:

.....usable at 6400ISO and print 11x14....I can do it with my 7D. Of course I spend a lot of time with 3 noise reduction programs and use all 3 at once. LR4, Denoise and noiseware pro

Wow! I do not mean to be impolite, but can we see some samples? and how did you use them?

I am almost OK at 1600, and 3200 is definitely not. I do a lot of 11x17, and some 16x20/16x24 on higer ISOs (like 1600, but mostly as 800).

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Hopefully Mailman88 will post some of his high ISO examples but he is definitely of of the real masters of NR around these parts (well, at least IMHO).  He's found a way to preserve lots of detail and eliminate noise in a way I've had a hard time duplicating on my own.  He's posted lots of ISO 3200 examples in the past and some are pretty mind boggling.

This is NOT a paid advertisement... just an admirer of his PP skills.

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steve88
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ISO 3200 is About the Max for Me
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

Multi-SportsMom wrote:

What do you find is the highest ISO you can use without the photos lacking sharpness? Another season shooting indoor sports and I am disappointed once again.

My outdoor track shots don't have this issue. So I assume its the high ISO.

Most would say my photos are usable. But they still arent what i want and see of other photographers. This is my 8th year shooting and 4th digital camera. I have improved but my photos still lack pop/clarity. I shot 6400 last night in our bad lighting gym. I lowered it to 4000-5000. And used an aperture of 2 instead of 2.5.

Maybe its my PS skills lacking. Anyone have any unedited shots i could see?

Signed Picky Penny

I've never had much luck above 3200 ISO. I'm lucky because I shoot college volleyball in a building that's only two years-old and the lighting is very good. I can usually shoot games there around ISO's of 1600 to 2000 at the most but I've gone higher with decent results. Here are some samples (all shot with either a Canon 85mm f/1.8 lens (at f/2.8 to f/3.2) or a Canon 200mm f/2.8L lens (shot at the same apertures as the 85mm):

http://stevenmitchell.zenfolio.com/p334789359

http://stevenmitchell.zenfolio.com/p555810226

I reduce noise in Canon's DPP as well as in LR 3 and I'm pretty happy up to about 3200.  I've shot volleyball and basketball games in other gyms (mostly high schools) where the light is horrible and I'm shooting at ISO's of 5000-6400 but I've never been able to reduce the noise enough to my liking.  ISO 6400 is really pushing it on a crop sensor in terms of noise and IQ.  You might just have to live with it and accept the fact that a crop sensor can only do so much under those conditions.

You can still capture all of the drama and action of the game, however...and that's a big part of what really matters.  You just might have to accept some noise in the final images, though.

I'd really like to get a 5D3 as the full-frame sensor would help a great deal in terms of high ISO noise but I just don't want to spend that kind of money at the moment.

Anyway, I hope this has been of some help!

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giraffe
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

I shoot hockey in indoor arenas with my 7D and 70-300L lens. Unfortunately sometimes I have to use ISO 6400 to freeze the action although I will always use the lowest ISO I can. I shoot in RAW and post process in photoshop. I also use noise reduction programs - my 2 favorites are Topaz denoise and imagenomic Noiseware. I find I can get decent prints up to about 8x10. The key is to ensure that your photos are properly exposed to minimize noise. I also shoot in manual mode adjusting ISO, fstop and aperture to ensure I freeze the action.

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Suave
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

I could do 3200, but I hated every second of it - AF was always going haywire, PP was a pain in the neck, and still I was never happy with the outcome.

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Where's my new 50, Canon?

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Multi-SportsMom
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to giraffe, 10 months ago

giraffe wrote:

I shoot hockey in indoor arenas with my 7D and 70-300L lens. Unfortunately sometimes I have to use ISO 6400 to freeze the action although I will always use the lowest ISO I can. I shoot in RAW and post process in photoshop. I also use noise reduction programs - my 2 favorites are Topaz denoise and imagenomic Noiseware. I find I can get decent prints up to about 8x10. The key is to ensure that your photos are properly exposed to minimize noise. I also shoot in manual mode adjusting ISO, fstop and aperture to ensure I freeze the action.

Right, even with correct exposure i'm disappointed.

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Multi-SportsMom
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Suave, 10 months ago

Suave wrote:

I could do 3200, but I hated every second of it - AF was always going haywire, PP was a pain in the neck, and still I was never happy with the outcome.

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Where's my new 50, Canon?

YES that sounds like my problems too!

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Alastair Norcross
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Re: 7D and usable ISO?
In reply to Multi-SportsMom, 10 months ago

Multi-SportsMom wrote:

Suave wrote:

I could do 3200, but I hated every second of it - AF was always going haywire, PP was a pain in the neck, and still I was never happy with the outcome.

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Where's my new 50, Canon?

YES that sounds like my problems too!

I wonder what the problem is? You said that your results aren't as pleasing as mine, and I'm using 3200. Is there sensor variation in high ISO noise response?

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