E-M1: Ongoing experience report

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Caledonia
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to Timur Born, 10 months ago

Very interesting to learn of the differences you observe in the noise behavior of the new replacement E-M1.  You're right, it might be appropriate for a separate thread, since there's so much else to relate in your "experience" thread here and it would not be nice to hijack it.

I would certainly be interested in seeing what your camera's "new" noise signature looks like, and also knowing how you exposed and processed the frames you're displaying here -- so that I can attempt to reproduce those conditions locally.  I did try a 30 sec exposure at ISO 1600, and see much the same thing you've shown, but only at a 1:1 crop or greater.  I may have missed information in your original posting about this . . . wouldn't be the first time!

I don't post here frequently, but will see if I can get "up to speed" regarding image uploads so you can see what my E-M1 is doing.  Likewise, I just downloaded the latest RawDigger -- though I'm not at all familiar with it, I managed to learn that, from my camera, the image I described above is about 87 - 88% underexposed in all channels.  (Of course, I don't really understand what that figure means . . . just guessing that a "perfect" dark frame with no noise would be 100% underexposed.)

My E-M1 has been updated to FW v1.1, for what that's worth.

One perhaps-interesting thing is that, while mindlessly examining this image in RPP, I chanced upon EXIF info regarding sensor temperature -- it was reported as 54.9 degrees Centigrade when I exposed the frame for 30 seconds.  It might be interesting to compare that reported temperature with the E-M5's behavior, or to see how it varies with exposure time and history, if it is at all accurate.

Curious that I did not find sensor temp info in Olympus' Viewer 3 EXIF report -- maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.  I guess I'd better root around for a dedicated EXIF viewer, too . . .

This is not an aspect of noise behavior which concerns me very much, since I'm unlikely to run into difficulty because of it in my own very casual, opportunistic photography . . . but this signature characteristic, so distinct from that of the E-M5, is an interesting facet of the E-M1's performance.

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LTZ470
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to Big Ga, 10 months ago

Big Ga wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

No AA Filter is causing this...

Hmmm. So what's the theory behind how that's happening ??

Open original look at her black coat collar closely…you'll see a similar happening here...

Riiiiiggggggghhhht.

"Nurse .... I've found the one that escaped from the padded room ....."

Lol...actually I'm running it!...and the Nurse works for me...

I'm saying nothing

Have the A7r with me and the RX1 will run a test on those two to verify...

Well, just to give you a headsup, the image you posted shows colour artifacting caused by the lack of an AA filter giving issues with correctly resolving small specular highlights. The original issue pointed out by Timur is caused by some other kind of sensor noise.

They may look similar, but one has to be careful that we don't add 2+2 and get 5 !

"Specular lighting is the bright, shiny spots that appear on smoother surfaces. Usually they are the color of the light, but occasionally will take on a component of the material they are reflecting off of. Specular lighting can be kind of tricky to perform. This is because unlike diffuse lighting, specular lighting moves around, depending on where the viewer is, as well as where the light is. The math for it is a little more complicated."

I have seen this in several EM1 photos and an A7r shot, never in EM5 or Nex-7…very strange never the less…don't know one way or the other until proved…buy you don't either...

Will post results from RX1 vs A7R today...

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boggis the cat
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to Timur Born, 10 months ago

Timur Born wrote:

gnewsch wrote:

Probably a consequence of on sensor PDAF.

It happens in all parts of the image, not only within the PDAF area. And the PDAF sensels are just plain normal sensels with a different filter on top as far as I understood.

They are not used for forming the image, so you effectively have bands where the green channel information is halved.  This could cause various interpolation artefacts, so I guess it is possible that this is the cause.

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Big Ga
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to LTZ470, 10 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

Well, just to give you a headsup, the image you posted shows colour artifacting caused by the lack of an AA filter giving issues with correctly resolving small specular highlights. The original issue pointed out by Timur is caused by some other kind of sensor noise.

They may look similar, but one has to be careful that we don't add 2+2 and get 5 !

"Specular lighting is the bright, shiny spots that appear on smoother surfaces. Usually they are the color of the light, but occasionally will take on a component of the material they are reflecting off of. Specular lighting can be kind of tricky to perform. This is because unlike diffuse lighting, specular lighting moves around, depending on where the viewer is, as well as where the light is. The math for it is a little more complicated."

I have seen this in several EM1 photos and an A7r shot, never in EM5 or Nex-7…very strange never the less…don't know one way or the other until proved…buy you don't either...

Try this definition from wikipedia:

"A specular highlight is the bright spot of light that appears on shiny objects when illuminated"

...

"The term specular means that light is perfectly reflected in a mirror-like way from the light source to the viewer"

So you've got a tiny point of (very bright) light coming from the reflective surfaces of the material.

Then do some research on the problems you get when camera manufacturers omit an AA filter. Then you might understand what I'm referring to and why you are seeing coloured dots when none really exist.

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janeenadamsmartin
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to Timur Born, 10 months ago

I think I have normal hands and dexterity, but there is no way I can press and hold a function button while simultaneously rotating the dial and holding the cameras with one hand.  Thank you for clarifying!

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Timur Born
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to boggis the cat, 10 months ago

boggis the cat wrote:

Timur Born wrote:

gnewsch wrote:

Probably a consequence of on sensor PDAF.

It happens in all parts of the image, not only within the PDAF area. And the PDAF sensels are just plain normal sensels with a different filter on top as far as I understood.

They are not used for forming the image, so you effectively have bands where the green channel information is halved. This could cause various interpolation artefacts, so I guess it is possible that this is the cause.

Sorry, but I highly doubt that this is a possible cause, because the same kind of noise happens all over the image, including outside of the PDAF areas. Within the PDAF areas there *are* interpolation artifacts in the form that (normal) noise shows a pattern following the PDAF stripes area. But there is both normal and confetti noise outside, too. You can make that interpolation pattern visible by using blue blinkies against dark background or using the screen/EVF against fine detailed pattern (like b/w stripes on a computer screen).

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LTZ470
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to Big Ga, 10 months ago

Big Ga wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

Well, just to give you a headsup, the image you posted shows colour artifacting caused by the lack of an AA filter giving issues with correctly resolving small specular highlights. The original issue pointed out by Timur is caused by some other kind of sensor noise.

They may look similar, but one has to be careful that we don't add 2+2 and get 5 !

"Specular lighting is the bright, shiny spots that appear on smoother surfaces. Usually they are the color of the light, but occasionally will take on a component of the material they are reflecting off of. Specular lighting can be kind of tricky to perform. This is because unlike diffuse lighting, specular lighting moves around, depending on where the viewer is, as well as where the light is. The math for it is a little more complicated."

I have seen this in several EM1 photos and an A7r shot, never in EM5 or Nex-7…very strange never the less…don't know one way or the other until proved…buy you don't either...

Try this definition from wikipedia:

"A specular highlight is the bright spot of light that appears on shiny objects when illuminated"

...

"The term specular means that light is perfectly reflected in a mirror-like way from the light source to the viewer"

So you've got a tiny point of (very bright) light coming from the reflective surfaces of the material.

Then do some research on the problems you get when camera manufacturers omit an AA filter. Then you might understand what I'm referring to and why you are seeing coloured dots when none really exist.

You do your own research...lol...and then you can refer to actual photos that I have taken...I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net...but I do believe in my own findings until proven different...(you must be an engineer)

All the colored spectacle going on in a black jacket...wonder what color the backside of a lens cap is?

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Big Ga
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to LTZ470, 10 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

You do your own research...lol...and then you can refer to actual photos that I have taken...I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net...but I do believe in my own findings until proven different...(you must be an engineer)

All the colored spectacle going on in a black jacket...wonder what color the backside of a lens cap is?

What the hell are you trying to say here? is it 'because the jacket is black, and a lenscap is black, then that's who the colour artifacts must be caused by the same thing' ????

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pocoloco
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to LTZ470, 10 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

You do your own research...lol...and then you can refer to actual photos that I have taken...I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net...but I do believe in my own findings until proven different...(you must be an engineer)

All the colored spectacle going on in a black jacket...wonder what color the backside of a lens cap is?

Looks like moire to me, on the jacket, between the hairs, it's not specks, it is curved lines.

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boggis the cat
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Simple explanation
In reply to LTZ470, 10 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

Try this definition from wikipedia:

"A specular highlight is the bright spot of light that appears on shiny objects when illuminated"

...

"The term specular means that light is perfectly reflected in a mirror-like way from the light source to the viewer"

So you've got a tiny point of (very bright) light coming from the reflective surfaces of the material.

Then do some research on the problems you get when camera manufacturers omit an AA filter. Then you might understand what I'm referring to and why you are seeing coloured dots when none really exist.

You do your own research...lol...and then you can refer to actual photos that I have taken...I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net...but I do believe in my own findings until proven different...(you must be an engineer)

All the colored spectacle going on in a black jacket...wonder what color the backside of a lens cap is?

You have to consider the fact that the material is not perfectly black -- nor even close to it.  If it were black then it would absorb all light and you'd end up with a completely dark area where the jacket is.  (And you would also see the jacket as a perfectly black area with no detail.)

The light reflected back from the jacket varies in intensity, in turn producing a variation in light intensity at each photosite on the sensor (if this wasn't the case, then you would not 'see' the jacket in the photo).  This means that the RGB pixels in the Bayer filter may record quite different light levels and this may then 'fool' the interpolation required to yield RGB at each pixel.  The spurious coloured pixels are a moire effect.

The inside of a lens cap is, firstly, devoid of any incident light (so can't reflect any light back to the sensor); and typically they are also coated in a 'powder' type finish to ensure that any stray light that may get in (through e.g. a slight gap in a filter) is less likely to get bounced into the lens proper and thus reach the sensor.

Big Ga is correct in what he has posted.  In basic terms, the material is not perfectly black, it is a shiny black (probably nylon or a similar acrylic).  'Shiny' and 'specular' mean the same thing, in this context.

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LTZ470
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Re: Simple explanation
In reply to boggis the cat, 10 months ago

boggis the cat wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

Try this definition from wikipedia:

"A specular highlight is the bright spot of light that appears on shiny objects when illuminated"

...

"The term specular means that light is perfectly reflected in a mirror-like way from the light source to the viewer"

So you've got a tiny point of (very bright) light coming from the reflective surfaces of the material.

Then do some research on the problems you get when camera manufacturers omit an AA filter. Then you might understand what I'm referring to and why you are seeing coloured dots when none really exist.

You do your own research...lol...and then you can refer to actual photos that I have taken...I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net...but I do believe in my own findings until proven different...(you must be an engineer)

All the colored spectacle going on in a black jacket...wonder what color the backside of a lens cap is?

You have to consider the fact that the material is not perfectly black -- nor even close to it. If it were black then it would absorb all light and you'd end up with a completely dark area where the jacket is. (And you would also see the jacket as a perfectly black area with no detail.)

The light reflected back from the jacket varies in intensity, in turn producing a variation in light intensity at each photosite on the sensor (if this wasn't the case, then you would not 'see' the jacket in the photo). This means that the RGB pixels in the Bayer filter may record quite different light levels and this may then 'fool' the interpolation required to yield RGB at each pixel. The spurious coloured pixels are a moire effect.

The inside of a lens cap is, firstly, devoid of any incident light (so can't reflect any light back to the sensor); and typically they are also coated in a 'powder' type finish to ensure that any stray light that may get in (through e.g. a slight gap in a filter) is less likely to get bounced into the lens proper and thus reach the sensor.

Big Ga is correct in what he has posted. In basic terms, the material is not perfectly black, it is a shiny black (probably nylon or a similar acrylic). 'Shiny' and 'specular' mean the same thing, in this context.

Will have to agree to disagree...don't believe you or Big Ga either...sorry just the way it is...

You would have to exhibit many more facts than your beliefs...as i have mine as well...

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LTZ470
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to pocoloco, 10 months ago

pocoloco wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

You do your own research...lol...and then you can refer to actual photos that I have taken...I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net...but I do believe in my own findings until proven different...(you must be an engineer)

All the colored spectacle going on in a black jacket...wonder what color the backside of a lens cap is?

Looks like moire to me, on the jacket, between the hairs, it's not specks, it is curved lines.

Talking about the spectacle of colors....red, green, blue, etc...

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LTZ470
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to Big Ga, 10 months ago

Big Ga wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

You do your own research...lol...and then you can refer to actual photos that I have taken...I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net...but I do believe in my own findings until proven different...(you must be an engineer)

All the colored spectacle going on in a black jacket...wonder what color the backside of a lens cap is?

What the hell are you trying to say here? is it 'because the jacket is black, and a lenscap is black, then that's who the colour artifacts must be caused by the same thing' ????

Just saying I believe what my eyes are seeing...not you...

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Timur Born
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Re: Simple explanation
In reply to LTZ470, 10 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Will have to agree to disagree...don't believe you or Big Ga either...sorry just the way it is...

You would have to exhibit many more facts than your beliefs...as i have mine as well...

Well then, great, everyone's got his own religion. Please stop filling my thread with off-topic posts  then. Religion is best discussed in the "For Sale and Wanted" sub-forum.

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rrr_hhh
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to Timur Born, 10 months ago

- Contrary to my earlier report Face Detection Multimetering is not fixed on the E-M1 vs. E-M5. Both still can meter on a face after focus had already been locked on something else, so both can seriously mess with metering if you don't watch out.

This may depends on how you have set your AEL/AF mode and which buttons you are using to lock focus and exposure. I tend to use mode 3, with focus lock on the AEL/AF button  and exposure lock on shutter half press. So exposure lock is always the last thing I'm doing. This is not ideal with face detection, since I have to use the AF lock button to confirm/lock focus. However exposure is always locked when I press the shutter (halfway or fully). May be try to put both exposure lock and AF lock on the shutter ? Do you get the same results with all AEL/AF modes ? One of the three different lock modes should be able to handle that.

BTW, thanks for your detailed reports. I have decided to keep the E-M5 for a while longer..  DXO results seem to indicate a better IQ.

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Timur Born
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Re: E-M1: Ongoing experience report
In reply to rrr_hhh, 10 months ago

Thanks for the hints. I am most often use both AEL and AFL on shutter half-press. The problem with face-detection is that exposure is locked only *after* focus has been locked at the *end* of focus motor movement. So whenever FD detects a face (real or not) after you half-press the shutter, but before AFL (end of focus motor movement) then you get exposure on the area of the too late detected face. And since FD is quite notorious for detecting faces in places that do not even remotely resemble faces you really have to watch out that the white frame does pop up just before the shutter opens.

It simply shouldn't happen that FD exposes for any face area (white frame) when no face was detected before hand (green frame). Should be reasonably easy to program that the white frame is never allowed without an accompanying green frame.

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LTZ470
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Re: Simple explanation
In reply to Timur Born, 10 months ago

Timur Born wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Will have to agree to disagree...don't believe you or Big Ga either...sorry just the way it is...

You would have to exhibit many more facts than your beliefs...as i have mine as well...

Well then, great, everyone's got his own religion. Please stop filling my thread with off-topic posts then. Religion is best discussed in the "For Sale and Wanted" sub-forum.

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Nothing about religion was mentioned...lol...maybe your imagination?

I posted some results similar to yours from A7r and RX1 as I was interested in your findings as well...as I had noticed these in several shots myself...

So nothing about "off topic" here I just disagree with their thought process...

And as far as I know you don't own this forum do you? If you post on a public forum then only want certain folks input, then you should start a blog...then you can allow who you want to post there...

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Timur Born
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Re: Simple explanation
In reply to LTZ470, 10 months ago

Well then maybe we should stop writing about "believes" and get back to a reasonable discussion. Your black jacket example is a completely different type of artifact, its whole geometric signature looks obviously different and it was not taken at over 15 seconds exposure time. The latter is needed to even get the E-M1's sensor of my first (firmware 1.1) unit to exhibit the colorful confetti noise. My new (firmware 1.0) unit shows a very different noise signature with considerably less confetti noise in return for considerably more luminance noise, both are AA filter-less.

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LTZ470
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Re: Simple explanation
In reply to Timur Born, 10 months ago

Timur Born wrote:

Well then maybe we should stop writing about "believes" and get back to a reasonable discussion. Your black jacket example is a completely different type of artifact, its whole geometric signature looks obviously different and it was not taken at over 15 seconds exposure time. The latter is needed to even get the E-M1's sensor of my first (firmware 1.1) unit to exhibit the colorful confetti noise. My new (firmware 1.0) unit shows a very different noise signature with considerably less confetti noise in return for considerably more luminance noise, both are AA filter-less.

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O ye of little faith...yes, we should have been cutting the photos out of our replies...my apologies...

Yes, the A7r has had variations of the same noise, RX1 is consistent and unchanging even after 7 shots a various ISO's...very strange, the one reason I question it is I am seeing strange shades in skys and slight banding etc from A7r....but nothing even remotely similar from RX1

The jacket collar is not specular highlights, from what I see...these new sensors are strange in ways and different folks are seeing different things from them...got a really odd one from A7r the other day in a group shots, their feet down was purple, but a few photos later it was gone?

I don't see how it can show colored noise when shooting in a black hole unless a tiny bit of light is getting in?...But I do know the EM1 Lens Cap is solid...more so than Sony's...

Don't have my EM1 with me, would like to try the same test....would be nice if someone had an RX1r to perform the same test as well...

Anyway thanks for sharing the experience, I am learning from it...

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Timur Born
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Re: Simple explanation
In reply to LTZ470, 10 months ago

The noise I have demonstrated is sensor noise, it has nothing to do with light, as it is the sensor circuits creating "false" information by heating up (thus the longer the exposure the more noise is present). And this whole discussion is too detailed and derailing for this thread where I am just sharing my personal experiences with the E-M1 (vs. E-M5) and thus should be taken to thread specifically discussing just the noise (pattern) stuff.

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