When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?

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xi5
xi5
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When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?
4 months ago

It seems, presently, people have really embraced HD video devices; camcorders, interchangeable lens cameras, on cell phones, etc...

There's talk of 4K on the horizon, mostly in regards to TV's, but also new 4K camera releases in 2014.

So, assuming it will be from the top, down...when will wedding videographers/other pros need to have a 4K video device as a basic requirement...then video people like Craigslist videographers answering ads...then down to basic YouTubers, family video, etc.

It seems this would be quite a monumental shift with new requirements for computers, cameras, lenses, then eventually bandwidth.

What year are we talking about? 2015, 2016...later? How much longer are our 1920x1080 video recording devices good for....for pros, novices, then your average person?

Or maybe 4K won't have huge adoption and, for most people, it will go from hanging onto HD then eventually 8K into the distant future?

DaytonR
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Re: When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?
In reply to xi5, 4 months ago

Extrapolating from how HD went from being expensive niche to being everywere I would estimate that by 2017 4K will be on all affordable camcoders, DSLR`s , smartphones etc

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Sean Nelson
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Re: When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?
In reply to DaytonR, 4 months ago

DaytonR wrote:

...I would estimate that by 20174K will be on all affordable camcoders, DSLR`s , smartphones etc

That seems about right to me.   I'd expect it would take 4-5 years before 4K penetrates to the point where it's been implemented on most midrange televisions and the distribution channels (cable, satellite, etc.) support it.   I'm not so sure about broadcast television, though.   It took well over a decade of haggling and standard-setting to get the ATSC broadcast standard approved and implemented.   And for me the jury's still out on optical media, which seems to be loosing the battle to online distribution.

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stinelise
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Re: When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?
In reply to xi5, 4 months ago

xi5 wrote:

It seems, presently, people have really embraced HD video devices; camcorders, interchangeable lens cameras, on cell phones, etc...

There's talk of 4K on the horizon, mostly in regards to TV's, but also new 4K camera releases in 2014.

So, assuming it will be from the top, down...when will wedding videographers/other pros need to have a 4K video device as a basic requirement...then video people like Craigslist videographers answering ads...then down to basic YouTubers, family video, etc.

It seems this would be quite a monumental shift with new requirements for computers, cameras, lenses, then eventually bandwidth.

What year are we talking about? 2015, 2016...later? How much longer are our 1920x1080 video recording devices good for....for pros, novices, then your average person?

Or maybe 4K won't have huge adoption and, for most people, it will go from hanging onto HD then eventually 8K into the distant future?

Dont think you have to wait until 2016. Small products like Samsung Galaxy Note 3′s has 4K video already. The codec is prob. not 4:2:2 and not real 8bit but is's 4K in a mobile device.

4K television screens are out on the market and heavily advertised as the new thing, so the demand will come with in very short time for recording devises. Panasonic coming out with GH4, rumor says its 4K, and with a 4:2:2 8/10bit with a retail price under 2500,- Dollar. 4K is here.

The biggest problem not is file logistic. It will be a whole new set of problems to handle the big files, but that has always been a big problem when ever technology gave us new and better gear and formats.

//Stine Lise

PS - maybe some XF300 will come cheap

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diverroy
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Re: When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?
In reply to stinelise, 4 months ago

It's on the GoPro Hero 3

-- hide signature --

Diverroy

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Sean Nelson
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Re: When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?
In reply to diverroy, 4 months ago

diverroy wrote:

It's on the GoPro Hero 3

...but only at 15 fps, which isn't adequate for serious use.

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Kim Letkeman
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what makes you think they will?
In reply to xi5, 4 months ago

3D has not become a requirement. The existing HD has excellent resolution for anyone with a normal TV set. The fact is that the consumerism at all cost culture is running out of ways to separate us from our money. 4k video will take years to penetrate because of massive bandwidth requirements and the fact that TVs with superb HD are cheap as borscht now. Everyone will have one ... how long will it be before they are ready for another? Assuming there is enough programming to even justify it?

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JayBratcher
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Re: what makes you think they will?
In reply to Kim Letkeman, 4 months ago

Kim Letkeman wrote:

3D has not become a requirement. The existing HD has excellent resolution for anyone with a normal TV set. The fact is that the consumerism at all cost culture is running out of ways to separate us from our money. 4k video will take years to penetrate because of massive bandwidth requirements and the fact that TVs with superb HD are cheap as borscht now. Everyone will have one ... how long will it be before they are ready for another? Assuming there is enough programming to even justify it?

Well said!  And if you think consumers are tight, you should see how tight broadcast television is.  Jeez, we still can't even get all our cable channels in HD by default, and when we do, we have to pay a premium for it.  Believe me, there is no rush by broadcasters to go to 4k any time soon...

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xi5
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Re: what makes you think they will?
In reply to Kim Letkeman, 4 months ago

Kim Letkeman wrote:

what makes you think they will?

I don't, I'm asking. I really don't know what to anticipate from 4K; if everyone will start producing content with them and, as a result, pressure others to be on the level  - as far as what is expected by non-video people/viewers.

My concern stems from when, back in 2006/2007, I first got into camcorders and everybody suddenly jumped ship on SD... HD was in, SD was out.

Reportedly, there will be an influx of 4K cameras released in 2014. I was hoping I wouldn't have to upgrade anytime soon.

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Sean Nelson
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Re: what makes you think they will?
In reply to xi5, 4 months ago

xi5 wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

what makes you think they will?

My concern stems from when, back in 2006/2007, I first got into camcorders and everybody suddenly jumped ship on SD... HD was in, SD was out.

There was quite a large leap in quality from SD to HD.   The same isn't true of 2K HD to 4K.   To get the same kind of leap we had from SD will take a transition from 2K to 8K.

But Kim is right in that there are an awful lot of people for whom 2K HD is more than adequate.   You really need a huge TV (or need to sit very close to it) to get to the point where something beyond HD really has a noticeable improvement.   And with more and more content being viewed on tablets and phones one really has to wonder if the tide is running against this kind of evolution.

But a 2160p60 video camera would be terrific for flexibility in post-production, even if it's just used to create a 1080p60 result.

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xi5
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Re: what makes you think they will?
In reply to Sean Nelson, 4 months ago

Sean Nelson wrote:

xi5 wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

what makes you think they will?

My concern stems from when, back in 2006/2007, I first got into camcorders and everybody suddenly jumped ship on SD... HD was in, SD was out.

There was quite a large leap in quality from SD to HD. The same isn't true of 2K HD to 4K. To get the same kind of leap we had from SD will take a transition from 2K to 8K.

But Kim is right in that there are an awful lot of people for whom 2K HD is more than adequate. You really need a huge TV (or need to sit very close to it) to get to the point where something beyond HD really has a noticeable improvement. And with more and more content being viewed on tablets and phones one really has to wonder if the tide is running against this kind of evolution.

But a 2160p60 video camera would be terrific for flexibility in post-production, even if it's just used to create a 1080p60 result.

Thanks, those are good points.

post-production

I could see the advantage of being able to manipulate the image in post without any quality loss. Perhaps demand will be created for that post ability/better-than-HD cameras, even if the end result is HD.

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Kim Letkeman
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wild card
In reply to xi5, 4 months ago

xi5 wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

what makes you think they will?

I don't, I'm asking. I really don't know what to anticipate from 4K; if everyone will start producing content with them and, as a result, pressure others to be on the level - as far as what is expected by non-video people/viewers.

My concern stems from when, back in 2006/2007, I first got into camcorders and everybody suddenly jumped ship on SD... HD was in, SD was out.

Reportedly, there will be an influx of 4K cameras released in 2014. I was hoping I wouldn't have to upgrade anytime soon.

The wild card in all this is the spectacular number of fat wallets in the west ...

Between the excessively paid and the credit addicted, a whole lot of expensive cameras get sold ...

One can only speculate why people seem to gravitate to the expensive cameras conspicuously and publicly on forums like these ... but that could be what drives the next generation of sales, even without much content around.

"Gotta have 4k because everything else is just so 30 minutes ago."

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scorrpio
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Re: what makes you think they will?
In reply to Kim Letkeman, 4 months ago

Kim Letkeman wrote:

3D has not become a requirement. The existing HD has excellent resolution for anyone with a normal TV set. The fact is that the consumerism at all cost culture is running out of ways to separate us from our money. 4k video will take years to penetrate because of massive bandwidth requirements and the fact that TVs with superb HD are cheap as borscht now. Everyone will have one ... how long will it be before they are ready for another? Assuming there is enough programming to even justify it?

Hear hear.

If you look at the history of tech replacing each other on the market, it has always been in the direction of ease of use, and improvement in quality of image/sound was but an incidental thing.

Tapes replaced vinyl as more compact, more robust media.   CDs replaced tapes as even more robust, compact media with random access, and then iPod took the world by storm, putting an end to media swapping - with many people readily giving up the higher CD quality for a heavily compressed MP3.  On the other hand, higher quality DVD Audio never gained much traction.

With video, again - VHS tapes gave way to more robust, random-access DVDs.   Now, streaming is becoming the new darling.    Higher quality Blu-Ray is still fighting for acceptance, having failed to sweep away the DVD.   Blu-Ray players, which as as cheap as DVD players, are often bought mainly for their internet connectivity.     Connect a Blu-Ray to an older, non-internet HDTV, and you can stream Netflix, Amazon videos and many other sources.   Sure, Blu-Rays have suffered greatly due to their draconian copy protection - but again, it's an issue of customers choosing convenience over quality.

It's same thing with TVs.   The move from SD to HD was not so much a move from lower to higher resolution, as it was a move from the bulky, heavy CRT/rear projection to a light, thin flat panel.   Not only you could hang it on any blank wall, you could also go much bigger: 50, 60, 70 inches...   I would say at this point, market has reached a level when pretty much anyone seriously wanting an HDTV has got one as big as they wanted.

Again, we see the convenience over quality.  Despite plasma's claim of higher quality, its somewhat larger bulk and weight, greater heat output and worry about burn-in(whether substantiated or not) has doomed it against thinner, cooler and worry-free LED-backlit LCDs.

Now, we have a 60" 1080p unit, and we watch it from about 12 feet away.   I would say that our size/distance ratio is more or less typical.   You can fairly easily distinguish DVD content(480p) from HD, but I can't really tell 720p from 1080i or 1080p.   Far as 4K displays go, I can see the difference looking at them in stores from 2-3 feet away, but once I move to 'couch distance', I see ZERO reason to replace my current TV.

A 4K TV that is, in all aspects the same as a regular HDTV, but with higher resolution, has about as much market future as DVD Audio.

Now, when we get to thin film OLEDs that can be rolled up and stored hidden in the ceiling and unrolled to a 100-inch screen on demand - so that a TV no longer needs to permanently occupy a huge chunk of wall - then consumers will start paying attention.

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Kim Letkeman
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exactly
In reply to scorrpio, 4 months ago

scorrpio wrote:

Now, we have a 60" 1080p unit, and we watch it from about 12 feet away. I would say that our size/distance ratio is more or less typical. You can fairly easily distinguish DVD content(480p) from HD, but I can't really tell 720p from 1080i or 1080p. Far as 4K displays go, I can see the difference looking at them in stores from 2-3 feet away, but once I move to 'couch distance', I see ZERO reason to replace my current TV.

Bingo ... those who say things like "but when the TV gets big enough" have failed to read up on the eye's resolution. The TV would have to be monstrous and the distance unpleasantly close for 4K to blow you away day to day.

The vast majority of content just does not justify anything above 720p at normal viewing distance because you can't see it. So 1080p is already a luxury ... 4k is just a waste.

Of course ... one day there may be something out there that can justify it. But not for a while ...

A 4K TV that is, in all aspects the same as a regular HDTV, but with higher resolution, has about as much market future as DVD Audio.

The parallels are very much apparent. Even TVs with built in networking are overkill as that is easily and more conveniently purchased in an external box. And 3D ... what a silly idea. It never looks anywhere as good as in a theater.

Now, when we get to thin film OLEDs that can be rolled up and stored hidden in the ceiling and unrolled to a 100-inch screen on demand - so that a TV no longer needs to permanently occupy a huge chunk of wall - then consumers will start paying attention.

Yes ... monstrous TVs might make it worth the effort ... but how many years will it be before enough people can afford such a luxury?

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gskolenda
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It's Post. Post!
In reply to Kim Letkeman, 4 months ago

4K is going to be sold to the Post market, until the cost of 4K TV's come down and become super thin and affordable. I have 2 cameras that both shoot 1080P at 60, 30,and 24. One is a GH3, Love it! The other is a sony HG20, nice cam but I'm selling it because I want a 4k camera, Hopefully the GH4! Shooting 4k with a stabilized Len's, and on one of the new hand held 3 axis motorized gimbal, stabilizers, and then having the room in post to use a warp stabilizer plug in in Affter Effects, we will start to see some very nice video! That is what I can't wait for, Bring it on!

One thing I have learned about video, It's just as important to have the right tools as it is the right camera, My video shooting has increased substantially, when I started using, Jibs, better quality fluid head tripods, Sliders and learning things in post. Instead of just always shooting hand held or fixed tripod. It stimulated my creativity. But, along with this, I also learned that it really takes time to set up a shot correctly, many times more than it does to shoot the shot. 4K will be big!

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lancespring
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Re: what makes you think they will?
In reply to xi5, 4 months ago

xi5 wrote:
Reportedly, there will be an influx of 4K cameras released in 2014. I was hoping I wouldn't have to upgrade anytime soon.

I now believe that these reports are most likely exaggerated, and more hype than reality.   For example, there has been a lot of talk about Panasonic developing a 4k AF-G4 cinema camera and bringing it out soon.

However, we have a new report from a Panasonic manager that its introduction will most likely be in 2015, NOT 2014.

http://cinescopophilia.com/the-year-after-next-that-is-how-we-read-the-gh4k-panasonic-camera/

.

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Vesku
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Re: It's Post. Post!
In reply to gskolenda, 4 months ago

In my opinion there is a need for better resolution display system. I watch my 50 inch plasma very close and I think better video resolution could improve experience a lot. I saw 65" 4k Sony in store and difference was huge even not so close distance. Is it an absolute rule that tv and couch must be so far away in a room. Or when you go to movie do you select last row.

It is a pity though that almost none of todays video cameras records even true 1080P full HD. If you watch 1080P still photo it is much sharper and clearer than any consumer video camera dsrl. Canons and Nikons are even below 720P resolution in their "full HD"

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gskolenda
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Re: It's Post. Post!
In reply to Vesku, 4 months ago

OK Vesku, You have definitely thrown a monkey wrench in the motor with this quote!

Could you explain the details and proof, and what cameras are you saying this about?

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Vesku
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Re: It's Post. Post!
In reply to gskolenda, 4 months ago

gskolenda wrote:

OK Vesku, You have definitely thrown a monkey wrench in the motor with this quote!

Could you explain the details and proof, and what cameras are you saying this about?

Thanks for interest.

In a store there were 4k display surrounded with FullHD displays. In 4k played Sonys 4k demo shooted with Sony F55 4k camera. I standed about 1,5 meters (is that 3feet) away and fullHDs looked like old SD compared to 4k demo. 4k was much sharper and vivid. 2k resolution was rough and pixelated. Texts and lines was not clean.

Now we dont have many 4k video cameras and movies but best use now is watching our 5k photos in all glory and resolution. And I think my GH3 videos would look better with 4k display too. There are in youtube many 4k videos too and amount is encreasing rapidly.

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nelsonal
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Re: When do you think 4K video cameras will be a basic requirement?
In reply to xi5, 4 months ago

I have to wonder if 4K will follow the SACD/DVD-Audio standards to a very niche market.  American living rooms aren't really standardized around sizes that 4K makes sense for most people's eyesight.  The proof will be in whether 4K porn succeeds or remains niche, if I were a betting man my money would be on the latter.

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