The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Started Dec 9, 2013 | Discussions
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Charles2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,403
The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

dPreview posted samples of the Fuji XF 23/1.4 lens on an XE2. One shot in particular provides a good example for evaluating foliage:

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/reviewsamples/photos/2772736/dscf9886?inalbum=fujifilm-xf-23mm-f1-4r-samples-gallery

The full JPG is 12 MB, more than enough to play with. It was shot at f/5.6. Auto focus appears to be at the center of the frame.

I sharpened at various settings. The branches and twigs take only a little sharpening before halos appear. Their resolution is very good, but it sets a limit on what you can apply to the leaves. Incidentally, most of them are not green, which may help evaluate the X-trans color filter pattern.

So, what do you think of the resolution of the leaves?

Fujifilm X-E2
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justinwonnacott Contributing Member • Posts: 671
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

I believe you are correct, finely textured yellows are often where this kind of problem becomes apparent and they do not sharpen nicely at all. At the risk of starting an argument (not wanted) this is where a bayer sensor versus xtrans creates a visible difference for me.

BUT to be fair,  the shutter speed was a little slow . . . at 1/150 camera shake and subject movement could definitely have contributed to what you see.

57LowRider Senior Member • Posts: 3,744
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Ummm.... it's a jpg. Is it OOC or PP? If PP, what was the software etc.

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Sal Baker Veteran Member • Posts: 9,343
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

57LowRider wrote:

Ummm.... it's a jpg. Is it OOC or PP? If PP, what was the software etc.

I just pulled the sample image into Nik Sharpener Pro3.  Use "color ranges" mode and use the eye dropper to select the leaf color.  30% output sharpening on just the leaves looks pretty good on my not so great work monitor.  I'll have to try it at home on my good display.

Sal

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Charles2 OP Veteran Member • Posts: 3,403
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Judging by the Exif, it is a JPG out of camera.

Also, I must correct the size, about 6 MB, not 12.

Bjrn SWE
Bjrn SWE Regular Member • Posts: 413
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

When looking at the image at 100% (one pixel in camera = one pixel on screen) some of that awful Adobe Camera RAW convertion artifacts show, although this is not a RAW, neither converted. However looking at it at full screen (1200x1920 in my case), I think it looks fine!

Anyone use Fuji X cameras for large, high quality magazine prints (spreads)?

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baobob
baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 7,222
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

The only way to get the correct answer is to develop the RAW file in a good raw developper C1 IR no ACR for foliage

Below is an example of my tree test for foliage debelopped in C17E

Just shows that foliage rendition can be excellent when properly handled

I did the same shot with my 5D2 and ACR with similar results

Only jpegs of foliage are bad OOC

Cheers

bob

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flbrit Veteran Member • Posts: 3,645
Sharpening JPG's
3

You will not get good results when you sharpen a JPG image already pre sharpened for display.

Brian

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Beat Traveller Contributing Member • Posts: 744
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens
2

Charles2 wrote:

dPreview posted samples of the Fuji XF 23/1.4 lens on an XE2. One shot in particular provides a good example for evaluating foliage:

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/reviewsamples/photos/2772736/dscf9886?inalbum=fujifilm-xf-23mm-f1-4r-samples-gallery

The full JPG is 12 MB, more than enough to play with. It was shot at f/5.6. Auto focus appears to be at the center of the frame.

I sharpened at various settings. The branches and twigs take only a little sharpening before halos appear. Their resolution is very good, but it sets a limit on what you can apply to the leaves. Incidentally, most of them are not green, which may help evaluate the X-trans color filter pattern.

So, what do you think of the resolution of the leaves?

It's more than fine in this shot.

I used to think the foliage issue was a sensor thing until I reviewed my shots and discovered that I was continually shooting at f8 when I really needed at least f11 to get everything in focus, or I was using a shutter speed too slow to compensate for wind. I reviewed some photos from my Nikon with the same settings and found the same problem...

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Charles2 OP Veteran Member • Posts: 3,403
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Beat Traveller wrote:

... shooting at f8 when I really needed at least f11 to get everything in focus, or I was using a shutter speed too slow to compensate for wind.

If we look at the auto focus point, presumed to be the center of the frame, any reasonable aperture should be fine. The report praises the lens for resolution from f/4 to f/16.

And yes, we don't know whether there was a breeze.

Beat Traveller Contributing Member • Posts: 744
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Charles2 wrote:

Beat Traveller wrote:

... shooting at f8 when I really needed at least f11 to get everything in focus, or I was using a shutter speed too slow to compensate for wind.

If we look at the auto focus point, presumed to be the center of the frame, any reasonable aperture should be fine. The report praises the lens for resolution from f/4 to f/16.

And yes, we don't know whether there was a breeze.

Yes, but a lot of photos that have been bandied around to demonstrate the issue, my own included, show problems with foliage outside the center. Just sayin'.

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noyo Contributing Member • Posts: 751
Re: The foliage issue is in PP & PP
2

I sharpened at various settings.

Why would this image need sharpening? If an image is blurred due to lens quality/settings, camera or subject movement, the answer is to fix the shooting issue. Increasing sharpening at Post Processing may, in some cases, partially mitigate the issue but wont actually change the fact if the image is blurred. Most times all that is achieved is over-sharpened blur.

The branches and twigs take only a little sharpening before halos appear. Their resolution is very good, but it sets a limit on what you can apply to the leaves.

Unless I'm looking in the wrong place I'm struggling to see the 'halo' issue that you specify in the untouched original.

IMHO the issue is in the desire to manipulate in Post Processing (PP) and then Pixel Peep (PP?) when the original would be just fine at normal viewing. Halos will appear in any jpeg that is pushed too far. You have correctly identified that there is a limit but this isn't a camera specific issue, it is general to jpeg processing. Due to the nature of jpegs, some will be better and some worse than others. I recently tried to manipulate the jpegs from a friend's high-end Canon DSLR and was amazed at the limitations. There was very little room to do anything with the files. That's the same reason and affirmation as to why I've been shooting RAW for the last 10 years.

So, what do you think of the resolution of the leaves?

You've already said above, 'Their resolution is very good'. Is the resolution of the leaves any different from the static buildings? Now if you wanted to talk about the mushy look of the leaves that would be another topic, but halos on over-sharpened jpegs aren't the classic X Trans 'foliage issue'.

Nobody's mentioned the blue trees. Is the AWB off?

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Emacs23 Regular Member • Posts: 452
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

justinwonnacott wrote:

fair, the shutter speed was a little slow . . . at 1/150 camera shake and subject movement could definitely have contributed to what you see.

1/150 for 23/1.4 is slow? Are you joking?

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Emacs23 Regular Member • Posts: 452
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens
3

BTW, you doomed to have foliage issue with xtrans. Or to have even more severe color aliasing problems than with bayer: these problems happen not because of regular bayer structure, but due frequencies mismatch between channels, in places where original picture's frequency is so high neighbor red-green-blue pixels relates to significantly different places on the texture. Xtrans is more problematic here because of even more rare red and blue samplings. For example, I saw pics where iridient, which shows quite good details (still, not as good as better demosaic engines for bayer) provokes huge amount of moire arifacts. So, balanced demosaic for xtrans must show green smearing by its definition.

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justinwonnacott Contributing Member • Posts: 671
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

justinwonnacott wrote:

fair, the shutter speed was a little slow . . . at 1/150 camera shake and subject movement could definitely have contributed to what you see.

1/150 for 23/1.4 is slow? Are you joking?

No i am not joking ... lots of folks cannot hold a camera really steady at that shutter speed. I wish dpr would use a tripod for lens samples more often.

AustinB Regular Member • Posts: 380
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Can you post an example of a JPEG with this problem?

Anyone have advice about how to mitigate this, in JPEG?

Sal Baker Veteran Member • Posts: 9,343
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

AustinB wrote:

Can you post an example of a JPEG with this problem?

Anyone have advice about how to mitigate this, in JPEG?

One way is detailed in my post below...

Sal

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Dresdenboy Regular Member • Posts: 377
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Charles2 wrote:

Beat Traveller wrote:

... shooting at f8 when I really needed at least f11 to get everything in focus, or I was using a shutter speed too slow to compensate for wind.

If we look at the auto focus point, presumed to be the center of the frame, any reasonable aperture should be fine. The report praises the lens for resolution from f/4 to f/16.

Resolution != depth of field. Of course if the reviewer photographs a narrow depth or flat scene (test sheet) there will be good resolution in every corner. But trees usually have a greater depth of field.

BTW in front of the nearest tree's upper stem (at the upper left border) are some leafs showing motion blur. With some wind the ends of twigs usually move and swing the most.

(Image position x: 970px, y: 480px)

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justinwonnacott Contributing Member • Posts: 671
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens

Emacs23 wrote:

justinwonnacott wrote:

fair, the shutter speed was a little slow . . . at 1/150 camera shake and subject movement could definitely have contributed to what you see.

1/150 for 23/1.4 is slow? Are you joking?

Just a further note concerning camera shake . . .the sample was made with an xe2 - no viewfinder which means the camera is not supported in the same way that an eye level viewfinder is. It is more difficult to hold a camera steady when it is held that way compared to say . . .  an x pro 1 or a dslr.  Camera shake is a huge issue when you get down to looking for critical sharpness .

dark13star
dark13star Senior Member • Posts: 1,360
Re: The foliage issue in the dPreview sample of 23/1.4 lens
2

Just a further note concerning camera shake . . .the sample was made with an xe2 - no viewfinder which means the camera is not supported in the same way that an eye level viewfinder is. It is more difficult to hold a camera steady when it is held that way compared to say . . . an x pro 1 or a dslr. Camera shake is a huge issue when you get down to looking for critical sharpness .

The X-E2 has a viewfinder. It is an EVF, not OVF, but it is there and it is quite good. Now that doesn't mean the photographer used it...

Rich

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